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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 5:54:23 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Yeah, and do you see how my responses to him relate to your incorrect claims of the "straw manning" done to you and other atheists?



quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
...everyone on "your side" has exposed themselves as closed minded, defensive, and unwilling to actual discuss anything at all of merit...
On the other hand...NorthernGent...have tried to earnestly engage in an intellectual discussion on the issue.

You've got to be kidding me, don't tell me you actually endorse NorthernGents behavior. Using words like "earnestly" and "intellectual" to describe his behavior in the thread, what the fuck! He spent much of the thread lying about what I had said. Molested baby Jesus! He was actually caught red handed forging multiple quotes in this thread.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 5:55:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Yeah, and do you see how my responses to him relate to your incorrect claims of the "straw manning" done to you and other atheists?



quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
...everyone on "your side" has exposed themselves as closed minded, defensive, and unwilling to actual discuss anything at all of merit...
On the other hand...NorthernGent...have tried to earnestly engage in an intellectual discussion on the issue.

You've got to be kidding me, don't tell me you actually endorse NorthernGents behavior. Using words like "earnestly" and "intellectual" to describe his behavior in the thread, what the fuck! He spent much of the thread lying about what I had said. Molested baby Jesus! He was actually caught red handed forging multiple quotes in this thread.





Nahhh... a Gent wouldnt really do that would one?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 5:57:56 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


I am not here to trade insults with you. I wasn't trying to deny that some atheist on this thread did in fact call theists stupid. I was only trying to assert that the insult was not a strawman. If my intent wasn't clear the first time, I hope it is now.


Nor was my post about the insult being a strawman. It was intended as an insult, no matter how you view it. A false insult. Come on, 6 IQ point difference and this is what you are basing your superiority upon? Hell, i can drop 6 points when im pmsing. And if the same test is given to different countries, are we sure that no educational barries or vocabulary differences were in play? That seems to be a huge argument against that study.

BUT to insist that i was strawmanning is bullshit... no matter how you try and backpedal now.

You are mixing two different arguments here. My assertion that faith is inferior to reason for drawing conclusions about truth was based on the quality of the results. It had nothing to do with IQ. The IQ example was nothing more than an attempt to clarify what is a strawman and what isn't. You had claimed earlier that it was.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 5:57:58 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


Dude this is the thing I take issue with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As much as we object to the classification that religious people are inferior.

I don't know anyone who has made this claim. Another strawman, tazz.



Like I said, whether or not it's true is irrelevant. She claimed she knew nobody who said it and now she's saying it herself.

I have never said people who believe are inferior. Point it out please.

I have already acknowledged that DCWoody did in fact make the referrenced statement. I also said it was an insult and not a strawman. What more do you two want me to say?


I think I might have said somewhere along the way that they tend to suck the day's dick.

but I say shit like that all of the time....No one pays attention anymore.....


Hey, hows about a little moderation here!!! what does a guy have to do to get a little peace and quiet around here?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 5:58:43 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

My moneys on brainiac.


Honey, I love catching people in fallacies, when I am in the mood, and I already caught tyour girl in a huge one on the magnitude of arguing creative design...lmao

No you didn't. I have never argued creative design anywhere, on this thread or any other. Better hang on tighter to your money.


teleology is basically arguing from the end.... as is creative design... "God must have designed it because it exists" is a form of teleological thinking...


Another nonreligious example: He must be guilty or he would not be on trial

You bordered on it: we are on a march forward through time toward progress, and because things are better today than they were in the Dark Ages, they will be better in the future... we are evolving to be better and better.....not necessarily true, we might degenerate.... in fact, some might argue we are degenerating....


Just saying...


But please, tell me, is the scientific method the only measure of value you have... (note I did not say "validity")... because you are assigning a value to atheism over theism, which has nothing to do with th scientific method.....that is a value judgment

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:00:18 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
South Park episode where cartman is thrust into the future and the Atheists have won and they are warring with each other on "which science is stronger" and what they should all name themselves....

I think that's incorrect, as I recall the sole reason for their was over which organizations name was better. I thought it was a hilarious episode.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:02:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
South Park episode where cartman is thrust into the future and the Atheists have won and they are warring with each other on "which science is stronger" and what they should all name themselves....

I think that's incorrect, as I recall the sole reason for their was over which organizations name was better. I thought it was a hilarious episode.



The world would be a better place if we used South Park as our holy books...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:02:23 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~chuckles

im not either.

a whole lot of non-christians debating belief and faith. Wow, that should send some off scratcing their heads.


Yeah, seriously.

One thing that bothers me about these debates is that it's always framed in "atheism vs religion" rather than "atheism vs theism" which would IMO be a far more interesting debate - these always get muddied up with tangents about the failings of organized religion.


That is why I have intentionally used the term theism throughout my posts and used religion only when I am referring to dogma.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:04:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

My assertion that faith is inferior to reason for drawing conclusions about truth was based on the quality of the results.


One, so we dont get into a misunderstanding, which results?

And, two, yes, i did claim that intelligence is not linked to religious belief. A statistical study can be skewed in whatever direction is desired.

Here is a few questions to ask...

Is it high IQ lends itself to low income inequality and low religion? Or is it that democratic nations tend to invest more into their population, enabling such population to develop intellectually?


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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:07:27 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

My assertion that faith is inferior to reason for drawing conclusions about truth was based on the quality of the results.


One, so we dont get into a misunderstanding, which results?

And, two, yes, i did claim that intelligence is not linked to religious belief. A statistical study can be skewed in whatever direction is desired.

Here is a few questions to ask...

Is it high IQ lends itself to low income inequality and low religion? Or is it that democratic nations tend to invest more into their population, enabling such population to develop intellectually?



Those are good questions... did the researchers control for that...

But even more relevant, are IQ tests culturally slanted, there is ample evidence that this is so, which is why they do not give them anymore to school children

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:09:16 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You keep on beating this drum of "scientific method" as if this is all that matters in life...

The Divine is 'outside' our universe. Thus there is no causal connection to the Divine and thus the scientific method, which relies on causality, is not - or nearly not - applicable.

I added nearly not, because I used science to deduce the 'existence outside our universe' of the Divine and its nature. But I am a supergenius and I doubt that anyone else can do the same; besides, I also used inspiration. Nevertheless, some people have scooped me on a few other discoveries. Also, some physicists have ideas that are somewhat similar to mine, I believe - but I do not know much about their ideas.

As for contemporary avatars of the old pagan gods, anyone applying the scientific method to any of them would see only a human being.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:11:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		That has been a question that was raised as well. Did the testers alter the tests for cultural differences, language differences. Many years ago there was a complaint about the SATs. Many black familes didnt have saucers for cups. Some kids had no idea what was being asked.

quote:

A number of reasons are advanced to explain the large and persisting black-white SAT scoring gap. Sharp differences in family incomes are a major factor. Always there has been a direct correlation between family income and SAT scores. For both blacks and whites, as income goes up, so do test scores.


http://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 532
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:13:14 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

But I am a supergenius and I doubt that anyone else can do the same; besides, I also used inspiration. Nevertheless, some people have scooped me on a few other discoveries. A


You do realize that even if what you just posted is true, I could never take you seriously, all I can do is laugh at someone who would say that about themselves to strangers on the internet...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:15:38 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I still think it is relevant.... the yardstick


I don't have the same yardstick as you... we aren't measuring the same things... and that makes your unequivocal statement that theism is inherently inferior to atheism moot in my mind...


You keep on beating this drum of "scientific method" as if this is all that matters in life... is that all that matters to you in this world? is that your only yardstick?

No, it is not, and you have completely misrepresented what I said. Next time quote me directly. This is what I said: "Most atheists will assert that belief systems based on faith are in fact inferior to those based on reason. (I don't believe this is always true, but that is an argument for the theists to make, not the atheists.) "

I have also said that reason is superior to faith when drawing conclusions about what is true or fact (paraphrasing because I can't find the quote, several of them).

I have also said several times in the past two days that there are valid justifications for a faith based argument, but that I don't wish to supply both sides to this debate. I expect the theists to make their own arguments, which to date they have not.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:18:56 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
Treasure threw out the first strawman by trying to tell me what I as an atheist believed, and she got it wrong. I, Vincent, GotSteel and others immediately jumped on this to correct her and thus the remainder of that thread was derailed so you and Treasure (and a couple others) could debate the meanings of "faith" and "belief."

GotSteel started this thread because he was frustrated by how often this tactic is used to derail almost every thread where religion is discussed.

Seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY people have been lying about my position in this thread, I actually caught someone red handed forging quotes and we still didn't manage to have a discussion about this. I certainly don't mind some drift and think it often helps but after 27 pages of mostly off topic discussion can we actually talk about the topic? If you want to have an unrelated discussion (like julia's pet issue) get your own thread and post a link to it, they are free.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:19:25 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I expect the theists to make their own arguments, which to date they have not.


Perhaps one day in another thread we can have that mature discussion...

but I am not starting another religion thread, I felt ran off my last one by the harping and sniping going on....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:21:21 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY people have been lying about my position in this thread, I actually caught someone red handed forging quotes and we still didn't manage to have a discussion about this. I certainly don't mind some drift and think it often helps but after 27 pages of mostly off topic discussion can we actually talk about the topic? If you want to have an unrelated discussion (like julia's pet issue) get your own thread and post a link to it, they are free.


so what you are saying is that this discussion is over, and both sides strawman each other?


That is what I have seen on this thread....

And I maybe mistaken about someone's position, but I haven't strawmanned anyone

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:33:36 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		It's over? Wow, I think I won this debate.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:33:59 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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Status: offline 		You must be a girl of reason and logic. Too bad that you miss out for lack of faith.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 6:35:14 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Congratulations.

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