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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 7:33:42 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Christianity, as the example...has been around for a couple of thousand years. The bible's been firmly set as the holy book for a long, time...yet people pick and choose. The entire point of (most) religions is telling you what to do, if you think the majority of christian gospel is wrong....newsflash: you're not a christian. There is no option within christianity to personally decide to not believe in major sections of it, either form your own variant a la protestantism, or obey 'your' religion.
DC...the Bible was written by men and has undergone translation upon translation.

As a Christian there are certain things i believe and they are unshakable. As someone with a reasonable level of common sense i can see and read contradictions in the Bible that make me feel it is a work of fiction based on fact.
Does that make me any less of a Christian? No...it makes me a Christian with a functioning bullshit meter.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 7:34:52 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
It would have been nice to for an atheist to say "yes, I do have beliefs and faith in certain things, but it's not the same as having faith in a religious belief, and here's why I think that....."

Thank you for trying to explain the issue. Also, it seemed to me that Vincent very eloquently made such a statement nearly 20 pages ago and a number of atheists agreed with it and all it did was lead to Firm remaining firm in his equivocation fallacy.




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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 7:48:14 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I have faith there is a higher power. What that power is, i dont know. An atheist has faith there isnt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I shall ask you. Do you not have faith?

First of all I don't think I have a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence.
Second my taking a side against faith based theism in these threads isn't because I have faith that there isn't a higher power. It's because I'm generally against firm beliefs in things for which there is no evidence.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 7:48:28 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
It would have been nice to for an atheist to say "yes, I do have beliefs and faith in certain things, but it's not the same as having faith in a religious belief, and here's why I think that....."

Thank you for trying to explain the issue. Also, it seemed to me that Vincent very eloquently made such a statement nearly 20 pages ago and a number of atheists agreed with it and all it did was lead to Firm remaining firm in his equivocation fallacy.







I don't know what Firm's intentions were, and I'm not convinced that anything disingenous was going in. I didn't pick up on that, and I'm not sure that was his point. I'm not inside his head. But to each his own when it comes to trying to sense someone else's intentions.

I'm merely summarizering what the main tow was here, and more specifically why no one wanted to touch the words faith and belief. I'm not trying to validate one side or the other. I'm just trying to look at the situation, as it transpired, from an objective point of view.



< Message edited by marie2 -- 6/22/2010 7:49:16 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 7:59:38 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No GS, i was not agreeing with you.

I'm a little confused Tazzy, since I did the same thing you did for this same reason and could very well have made this exactly statement instead of my other one explaining it where exactly are we not in agreement on this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I posted what i did not because its what i believe, as you assumed, but because i knew it would get this reaction. I almost bet someone that reaction would come from you. I should have.

Anyways, the premise that everyone fits into a neat little box is a fallacy in itself.



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 8:03:15 AM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

First, how is it loaded when i have already agreed people who state they are atheists have no religious faith? Thats pretty much a pass for you and a road block againsr me for later claiming you do.

Second, i would love to se3e a definitioo for rational operating beliefs


I answered your question and you don't like the answer.  If you live in a context in which you cannot rationalize a complete lack of faith, that does not reflect poorly on those of us who can.  It doesn't matter that you agreed that atheists have no faith, that's semantics.  You are trying to muscle something that won't quite fit into your frame.  It ain't ever gonna fit in there.

If you need a definition for "rational operating beliefs" you should look up each word, because it is not a self contained concept it was a sentence.

Ed. I'm really not even condescending here.  This is akin to string theory... if you add or subtract a dimension from your worldview it works just fine. 


< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/22/2010 8:19:18 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 8:23:47 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question....

do you have no faith in anything?

I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply,


I am sorry but it is a really stupid question.

What I deal with are known quantities. The things I deal with have been proven.

Planes and cars don't work based upon mumbo jumbo. Either does the relationships that I have built up with people.

Why do I need to place faith in these things? I know about these things. I might not know the exact science as to how and why they work but I know it is there.

I don't possess faith as much as I have expectations about how things should work.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 8:52:25 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No GS, i was not agreeing with you.

I'm a little confused Tazzy, since I did the same thing you did for this same reason and could very well have made this exactly statement instead of my other one explaining it where exactly are we not in agreement on this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I posted what i did not because its what i believe, as you assumed, but because i knew it would get this reaction. I almost bet someone that reaction would come from you. I should have.

Anyways, the premise that everyone fits into a neat little box is a fallacy in itself.





Now you are assuming i know things that were not in evidence.
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I have faith there is a higher power. What that power is, i dont know. An atheist has faith there isnt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I shall ask you. Do you not have faith?

First of all I don't think I have a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence.
Second my taking a side against faith based theism in these threads isn't because I have faith that there isn't a higher power. It's because I'm generally against firm beliefs in things for which there is no evidence.


Thats not what i asked you. I asked you pure and simple... do you not have faith? then i asked twice to everyone ... do you not have faith in anything? anything at all?

I have faith in the things i listed to willbe. I have a rational belief which is a faith. Yes, a belief is a faith, having nothing to do with religion. I have faith in my abilities, my memories, my talents. All these are under my control, things i have learned.

I really dont see where this is so hard to admit.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 8:54:36 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question....

do you have no faith in anything?

I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply,


I am sorry but it is a really stupid question.

What I deal with are known quantities. The things I deal with have been proven.

Planes and cars don't work based upon mumbo jumbo. Either does the relationships that I have built up with people.

Why do I need to place faith in these things? I know about these things. I might not know the exact science as to how and why they work but I know it is there.

I don't possess faith as much as I have expectations about how things should work.



When you dont want to understand, you wont. What you described is a faith you have in yourself. No one is speaking about a faith in anything else.

wow, i have never seen a group of adults so scared of such a benign word!

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 8:56:47 AM   
juliaoceania


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 8:57:01 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

First, how is it loaded when i have already agreed people who state they are atheists have no religious faith? Thats pretty much a pass for you and a road block againsr me for later claiming you do.

Second, i would love to se3e a definitioo for rational operating beliefs


I answered your question and you don't like the answer.  If you live in a context in which you cannot rationalize a complete lack of faith, that does not reflect poorly on those of us who can.  It doesn't matter that you agreed that atheists have no faith, that's semantics.  You are trying to muscle something that won't quite fit into your frame.  It ain't ever gonna fit in there.

If you need a definition for "rational operating beliefs" you should look up each word, because it is not a self contained concept it was a sentence.

Ed. I'm really not even condescending here.  This is akin to string theory... if you add or subtract a dimension from your worldview it works just fine. 



Never said i didnt like the answer. My liking it has no bearing at all.

I did look up each word. Perhaps you should do the same.

Here is a starting point...

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing.[1][2] The English word is thought to date from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem or fidēs, meaning "trust", derived from the verb fīdere, "to trust".[1]



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:03:32 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



wow, i have never seen a group of adults so scared of such a benign word!


Because in the gotcha world of this board, words that are used in a benign context are then intentionally misapplied in a victory dance.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:07:07 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I have already stated, agreed, and validated the fact that atheists do not have religious faith. How would i be able to turn that into a gotcha moment?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:09:16 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



wow, i have never seen a group of adults so scared of such a benign word!


Because in the gotcha world of this board, words that are used in a benign context are then intentionally misapplied in a victory dance.


Isn't that really so obvious, will, it should not even need saying, especially in the context of this thread. <looking for the beating-a-dead-horse emot> You are right of course imo fwiw.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:11:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I dont think this is a dead horse issue, vincent. In fact, this issue causes alot of derailments on most of the religious threads.

many seem to want to go on and on about scientific methodology. Yet faith is used in that method. Not religious faith, but a faith in the methodology working itself.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:12:14 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Status: offline 		Does anyone even know what this discussion is about anymore? I can't make any sense out of it at all. 

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:14:40 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		a comment was made, and i think by brainiac, but it could have been by someone else, that before we could continue a discussion, and not have it turn into a battlefield, that definitions need to be established. Thats all im doing, establishing meanings behind words that we can all agree upon without any "gotcha" moments.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:16:24 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Now you are assuming i know things that were not in evidence.

I apologize if I was unclear, in my defense this thread is a pretty big cluster fuck. Early on we made similar statements:

atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.

Seemingly using the same tactic to make the same point. So I've been trying to understand why you then did this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
An atheist has faith there isnt.


What's up with that?



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:22:26 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Do you not have faith in what you believe?

Im not speaking of a belief system here. You possess knowledge. According to Cline...

quote:

Atheism is the absence of belief in gods -- nothing more, nothing less.


But, you believe this to be quite accurate, yes?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:23:56 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have already stated, agreed, and validated the fact that atheists do not have religious faith. How would i be able to turn that into a gotcha moment?


I didnt single you out in particular.

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