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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:24:50 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		The subject of the thread is in the thread title.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:26:50 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont think this is a dead horse issue, vincent. In fact, this issue causes alot of derailments on most of the religious threads.

many seem to want to go on and on about scientific methodology. Yet faith is used in that method. Not religious faith, but a faith in the methodology working itself.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?


And after not singling you out, you then post something that indicates that your attempts to gain acceptance of that word may not be benign. NO, there isnt a single element of "faith" in the reliance on the effectiveness of the scientific method.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:27:45 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The subject of the thread is in the thread title.


That's the subject of the thread, but it's pretty far removed from what people are actually discussing.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:28:08 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have already stated, agreed, and validated the fact that atheists do not have religious faith. How would i be able to turn that into a gotcha moment?


I didnt single you out in particular.


I know, and understand. My being of a religious leaning would certainly be helpful when this argument creeps up again. All im trying to do is get a concensus among those who state they are atheists on this thread to agree to certain terminology without losing their ability to argue a point when someone stands up and screams... you have faith! well, we all have faith in certain things... there is a difference when it comes to religious faith.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:28:09 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont think this is a dead horse issue, vincent. In fact, this issue causes alot of derailments on most of the religious threads.

many seem to want to go on and on about scientific methodology. Yet faith is used in that method. Not religious faith, but a faith in the methodology working itself.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?


Not at all tazzy. But isn't "confidence" or "trust" a more acceptable word under these circumstances ( I mean message board conflict) and less loaded with emotion? So, that is why I am surprised "faith" is still an issue. Especially since you have acknowledged you do not mean it in the relrigious sense.

So fwiw, I have faith that some days life will bring me a bounty of love and happiness while on other days it will bring me a pile of dark manure. So far, my faith in that expectation has been justified.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:30:32 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel



theists state there is no evolution.





This isn't true in general. I know plenty of theists who believe in evolution, they just think that the wheel of evolution was started rolling by god.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:31:41 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Im trying to take the stigma out of the word when it comes up again.

If i said.. atheists have faith there is no god... i would be correct. The atheists i have seen on these boards have stated they are in possession of certain knowledge that leads them to that conclusion. We have not gotten into that evidence, nor do i think its necessary that we do at this point.

Belief

Faith

two words that both have varying meanings... and seem to cause the most arguments. But both are accurately used.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:32:36 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Does anyone even know what this discussion is about anymore? I can't make any sense out of it at all. 

It's about devilish winged monkeys swooping down from the sky and tearing little strawmen apart with their filthy dirty little hands. Bad Monkeys, Bad Monkeys, that should be spanked. It's digressing into to kicking Tinmen in the balls with bare stinky feet. The cowardly lions headed for the bushes after their tails were pulled. At the moment everybody is debating about the existence of the WiZaRd of OZ verses the dispoven black hole theory of Stephen Hawkins. This is all the resulf of people not listening to what their mothers told them "Don't talk to strangers" and to "Never talk about politics and religion".

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/22/2010 9:34:24 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:34:44 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel



theists state there is no evolution.





This isn't true in general. I know plenty of theists who believe in evolution, they just think that the wheel of evolution was started rolling by god.


Thats his point, willbe. It isnt true, which he just recently admitted he doesnt believe. And this goes back to the religious are stupid belief. Just as there are some atheists who claim, catergorically, that there are no gods, there are religious zealots who believe man was made exactly as he is today and nothing ever changed. Those atheists dont speak for the larger group of atheists just as those religious people dont speak for the rest of their group either.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:35:46 AM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		Tazzygirl:

One more time just for sport.  At the risk of being passe: You are trying to explain oranges to yourself in terms of apples!

This is like intelligence, and I'm not saying it bares on intelligence just that it makes a good analogy.  Everyone thinks that they are pretty smart, even though everyone knows there are people smarter.  None of us can actually conceive of what it would feel like to be smarter than we actually are though, so we still think that we are pretty smart... even if that's a relatively naive thing to think.  Its a hard limit.

Yours is NOT a hard limit.  It is a soft limit lodged firmly in your worldview.  Your worldview necessarily invokes faith by its design. Trying to pin down the views of someone who rejects that entirely in terms of how you understand the world is never EVER going to work.

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/22/2010 9:40:16 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:36:06 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Does anyone even know what this discussion is about anymore? I can't make any sense out of it at all. 

It's about devilish winged monkeys swooping down from the sky and tearing little strawmen apart with their filthy dirty little hands. Bad Monkeys, Bad Monkeys, that should be spanked. It's digressing into to kicking Tinmen in the balls with bare stinky feet. The cowardly lions headed for the bushes after their tails were pulled. At the moment everybody is debating about the existence of the WiZaRd of OZ verses the dispoven black hole theory of Stephen Hawkins. This is all the resulf of people not listening to what their mothers told them "Don't talk to strangers" and to "Never talk about politics and religion".


Oddly enough, that was actually my second guess!

No, really! It was.

How come nobody believes me?


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:37:21 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The subject of the thread is in the thread title.


That's the subject of the thread, but it's pretty far removed from what people are actually discussing.


Agreed.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:38:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Tazzygirl:

One more time just for sport.  At the risk of being passe: You are trying to explain oranges to yourself in terms of apples!

This is like intelligence, and I'm not saying it bears on intelligence just that it makes a good analogy.  Everyone thinks that they are pretty smart, even though everyone knows there are people smarter.  None of us can actually conceive of what it would feel like to be smarter than we actually are though, so we still think that we are pretty smart... even if that's a relatively naive thing to think.  Its a hard limit.

Yours is NOT a hard limit.  It is a soft limit lodged firmly in your worldview.  Your worldview necessarily invokes faith by its design. Trying to pin down the views of someone who rejects that entirely in terms of how you understand the world is never EVER going to work.



Im not trying to pin down ideas. Im trying to pin down terminology. Oddly enough, you yourself admitted you have a belief.. which is a faith.

quote:

Your worldview necessarily invokes faith by its design.


I would like you to clarify this, please.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Plasticine)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:41:51 AM   
brainiacsub


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


[...]
Thats his point, willbe. It isnt true, which he just recently admitted he doesnt believe. And this goes back to the religious are stupid belief. Just as there are some atheists who claim, catergorically, that there are no gods, there are religious zealots who believe man was made exactly as he is today and nothing ever changed. Those atheists dont speak for the larger group of atheists just as those religious people dont speak for the rest of their group either.

Wrong on the bolded points, tazz. Believing in gods - any gods - defeats the purpose of atheism. I will take exception with any atheist who claims otherwise, just like I would take exception with any Christian who claims they don't believe Jesus is God.

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/22/2010 9:42:24 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:44:41 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why is it i can get no atheist to respond ti the question....

do you have no faith in anything?

I asked GS straight out... i asked as a general question... still no reply,


I am sorry but it is a really stupid question.

What I deal with are known quantities. The things I deal with have been proven.

Planes and cars don't work based upon mumbo jumbo. Either does the relationships that I have built up with people.

Why do I need to place faith in these things? I know about these things. I might not know the exact science as to how and why they work but I know it is there.

I don't possess faith as much as I have expectations about how things should work.



When you dont want to understand, you wont. What you described is a faith you have in yourself. No one is speaking about a faith in anything else.

wow, i have never seen a group of adults so scared of such a benign word!


I am really tired of you. I have never expected much from you.


I am 100% confident that I am brighter than you because you believe....Did you know that there are actual scientific studies that might just back me up?....lol.

Anywhooo, what in the fuck do you actually want?

I know it is for me to admit that you are right? Never going to happen, only because it never has happened in the past and remember I operate on expectations and not faith.

I possibly might have faith somewhere deep within me that you might actually respond back in an intelligent fashion....My experience and expectations suggest that you will take an entirely different path.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/22/2010 9:45:30 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:46:52 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Many atheists take exception with them, brainiac. But to take exception does not negate their existence. And i have pointed out, as written by Cline, that there are atheist christians, as there are atheist jews. If you need me too, i can go back and find the post.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:47:30 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		It also brings up an interesting point...A Taoist might actually border on atheism....Taoism is not based upon a deity as it is more of a lifestyle.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:47:34 AM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im not trying to pin down ideas. Im trying to pin down terminology. Oddly enough, you yourself admitted you have a belief.. which is a faith.


I did not "admit" that I have a belief.  I described my worldview "in terms of belief" because there is not a better term for it. Belief is an inadequate word, and belief is a not very useful faculty. Hence the qualifiers of rational operating beliefs. 

quote:

quote:

Your worldview necessarily invokes faith by its design.


I would like you to clarify this, please.


You know your world view better than I do, I'm just reflecting your stuff back to you.  I see what you are trying to do intellectually and I understand why.  I'm just telling you that it doesn't work that way.  You are trying to solve the puzzle the wrong way.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:48:14 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I rarely comment to you because i can never tell when you are being a smart ass moron or actually have something worth while to read.

If you are tired of me, why are you responding?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to domiguy)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/22/2010 9:50:45 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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Status: offline 		The whole creation of life has taken on a new dimension with this...
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/craig_venter_unveils_synthetic_life.html

This ain't evolution, it's man made intelligent design. It's kind of ironic though, how both evolution and intelligent design both can co-exist. Perhaps life is in deed a result of the combination of both. Regardless of the past, intelligent design is a thing in the here and now.

However, us humans had to evol to the point of being able to create life itself. We were not doing this a thousand years ago.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/22/2010 9:52:58 AM >

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