RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 6:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl They are entitled to say what they wish on that billboard... freedom of... remember? You can as well. Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish. But the question i have is... why take it out on us? Go look at the link - try putting that shit on a billboard.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 7:09:46 PM)
Suggested. Perhaps the operative word? And yes, that is where it came from, and its something i have cited more than once in this thread. You claimed i had not cited it at all. Just because something is suggested doesnt mean we have to take them up on the suggestion... unless of course its to your own benefit to do so. I took it at face value.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 7:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl They are entitled to say what they wish on that billboard... freedom of... remember? You can as well. Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish. But the question i have is... why take it out on us? Go look at the link - try putting that shit on a billboard. Its not the first time i have seen such. Most major cities have that broadcasted from signs anywhere close to an abortion clinic or family planning center. But they are protected when they say such. Do i like it? Nope. I think its a crying shame because these are real photos of real aborted babies, aborted either naturally or otherwise, and their familes dont need a reminder. However, i do support their right to say so. Just as i support your right to say they are fucking idiots.

thishereboi -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 7:24:23 PM)
quote: You seem to be suggesting (by agreement with Julia's stereotyped view) that atheists put at the centre of their reasoning how unique their ideas are. Personally I've never witnessed an atheist use the argument that they don't believe in god because you as an idiot do. It's obviously a nice anecdote on yours and Julia's behalf but I've seen far better reasoning than that on behalf of most atheists. If you choose to take it personally when someone points out the flaws in your faith then that's your problem. I was agreeing with the statement I quoted "I have no issue with atheists telling me they don't believe in god, as long as they don't follow it up with "because believing in god is for superstitious idiots who are sheeple that can't think for themselves" or some other form of derision. Which seems to be the only way that some atheists can converse about their beliefs" And I believe she was paraphrasing when she said "because believing in god is for superstitious idiots who are sheeple that can't think for themselves" She still got the general sentiment of some on CM dead on. While most of the athiest on CM don't do this, the ones who do become irritating after awhile and those are the ones I was addressing.

xssve -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 7:31:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl They are entitled to say what they wish on that billboard... freedom of... remember? You can as well. Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish. But the question i have is... why take it out on us? Go look at the link - try putting that shit on a billboard. Its not the first time i have seen such. Most major cities have that broadcasted from signs anywhere close to an abortion clinic or family planning center. But they are protected when they say such. Do i like it? Nope. I think its a crying shame because these are real photos of real aborted babies, aborted either naturally or otherwise, and their familes dont need a reminder. However, i do support their right to say so. Just as i support your right to say they are fucking idiots. Sure, they have a right to lie in my face, and call it morality, just as I have a right to tell them to get fucked. The "crying shame" here is that apparently only WASP babies count, so... see above.

xssve -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 7:35:15 PM)
In short, your right to condescend here has been revoked.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 8:30:00 PM)
you are revoking your own right?

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 8:35:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl They are entitled to say what they wish on that billboard... freedom of... remember? You can as well. Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish. But the question i have is... why take it out on us? Go look at the link - try putting that shit on a billboard. Its not the first time i have seen such. Most major cities have that broadcasted from signs anywhere close to an abortion clinic or family planning center. But they are protected when they say such. Do i like it? Nope. I think its a crying shame because these are real photos of real aborted babies, aborted either naturally or otherwise, and their familes dont need a reminder. However, i do support their right to say so. Just as i support your right to say they are fucking idiots. Sure, they have a right to lie in my face, and call it morality, just as I have a right to tell them to get fucked. The "crying shame" here is that apparently only WASP babies count, so... see above. Only WASP babies? ummm.... it would be ok if they were japanese babies? russian babies? black babies? Speaking of which, i have assisted in many births, even caught a few all alone, and sometimes the only distinguishing characteristic of a black heredity was the hair and a deep, darkening of the labia or scrotum. So i would like to know how you know all those babies are WASP babies and why you are suddenly turning this into a racial issue.

xssve -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 10:08:26 PM)
I'm sorry, I thought I was pretty clear on that - save it.

heartcream -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/24/2010 10:25:45 PM)
quote: Freedom of expression and personal opinion is a positive input. Even in threads?

ModeratorSixteen -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 1:06:02 AM)
That is why CM encourages people to start their own threads.[;)]

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:08:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I'm sorry, I thought I was pretty clear on that - save it. Obviously not. And since you now dont wish to be so plain spoken, i will ask outright.. are you racist?

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:18:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Throughout human history people have believed in sacred things. They were willing to undergo pain, torture, they have altered states of consciousness when they relate to the sacred. These are real experiences. To negate the experiences of billions of human beings that have lived and died because you think that having spiritual experiences is nothing more than believing in spaghetti monsters is the epitome of arrogance... I didn't compare that to spaghetti monsters, but I'm sure you're aware of that. I compared it to the very real faith and beliefs of those "know" that aliens are visiting earth and experimenting on humans. Asking how someone’s personal relationship with a deity different from another’s personal relationship with the little green men. So juliaoceania, why do you think it's ok to straw man an atheist?

tnai -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:36:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? I apologize if this seems insulting that isn't my intent; just an honest answer. As I understand the Straw Man Fallacy it is attacking a similar but much weaker position because it is more difficult to argue the position directly as stated. Speaking only on my behalf the idea of life just happening is beyond far fetched. Therefore the evidence requires there to be a God and/or Gods for the universe to make sense. The idea of the universe and life just occurring, or being a place that life tends to happen seems so ridiculous that it doesn't seems possible to Straw Man; you have already taken the weakest possible position, and therefore no other could be easier to argue against. Because at first glance it doesn’t seem possible to do something from my point of view I may have fallen victim to this Fallacy, but I in no way feel or admit that as evidence of your point of view being correct.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:40:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel So juliaoceania, why do you think it's ok to straw man an atheist? As already has been pointed out multiple times, you are begging the question. A more accurate question is: Why do some many supposedly "logical, rational, science-based" atheist refuse to see that they redefine words to eliminate the possibility that they have beliefs, and get so angry at others (non-theist among them), who point at the semantic trickery that they are indulging in? I think you have the shoe on the totally wrong foot, Steel. Firm

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:47:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Suggested. Perhaps the operative word? And yes, that is where it came from, and its something i have cited more than once in this thread. You claimed i had not cited it at all. My apologies, you did cite your source earlier in the thread. Apparently you weren't trying to conceal that you're own source considers the definition ambiguous as I suspected. I was wrong. Incidentally, why would you quote without citation, laziness?

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:53:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish. Tazzy, the billboards "Don't believe in God? You are not alone." which were not designed to target theists at all but to increase the organization of non theists, were met with death threats across the country and not just towards the atheist organizations that put them up. So no, we still don't possess the same right to get whatever sign plastered up that we wish. Death threats force removal of atheist billboard "It went up on Tuesday but by Wednesday afternoon the group was told it would have to come down again. Lamar Advertising, the company that owns the billboard, leases the land on which it stands and the landowner wanted it taken down. He (or she) had been receiving death threats."

xssve -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 6:53:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I'm sorry, I thought I was pretty clear on that - save it. Obviously not. And since you now dont wish to be so plain spoken, i will ask outright.. are you racist? So you respond with another strawman - are you even capable of following a train of thought that doesn't lead where you want it to go? Your argumentative methods are highly deceptive and dishonorable, so yak away, but don't expect me to take you seriously.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 8:26:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel So juliaoceania, why do you think it's ok to straw man an atheist? As already has been pointed out multiple times, you are begging the question. If I hadn't demonstrated how juliaoceania was making a straw man of my argument immediately before asking that question then you would be correct. However, unless you think that space aliens are the same as spaghetti monsters we should be able to agree that she's pulled a bait and switch on my position, the kind commonly known as a straw man.

Plasticine -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/25/2010 8:37:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tnai quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? I apologize if this seems insulting that isn't my intent; just an honest answer. As I understand the Straw Man Fallacy it is attacking a similar but much weaker position because it is more difficult to argue the position directly as stated. Speaking only on my behalf the idea of life just happening is beyond far fetched. Therefore the evidence requires there to be a God and/or Gods for the universe to make sense. The idea of the universe and life just occurring, or being a place that life tends to happen seems so ridiculous that it doesn't seems possible to Straw Man; you have already taken the weakest possible position, and therefore no other could be easier to argue against. Because at first glance it doesn’t seem possible to do something from my point of view I may have fallen victim to this Fallacy, but I in no way feel or admit that as evidence of your point of view being correct. I apologize if this seems insulting that isn't my intent; just an honest answer. You are making the weakest possible argument right now. You make no reference to reality and are supporting your argument with your gut feelings. Do some reading that isn't the bible or other christian commentary, your argument is worse than the middle-of-the-road christian one. But at least you are being honest that your claim is completely unsupportable, and yes you are falling victim to several fallacies if you have expressed yourself clearly. @Firm: The semantic game is not us redefining words. The semantic game is that all of our words are already defined in Christian terms. It is sophistry to claim that because our language is defined in terms of faith and belief that they must be real and useful. Unless you are trying to argue that our language has been largely shaped by atheist thinkers who deliberately made it so their position could not be expressed accurately in English. Have you considered that just maybe all those words have interlocked definitions because the people who wrote those definitions had interlocking worldviews? There has been one common theme in English speaking cultures... I bet you know what that is.

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