Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? Page: <<   < prev  47 48 [49] 50 51   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 9:15:52 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

@Firm:  The semantic game is not us redefining words.  The semantic game is that all of our words are already defined in Christian terms.  It is sophistry to claim that because our language is defined in terms of faith and belief that they must be real and useful.  Unless you are trying to argue that our language has been largely shaped by atheist thinkers who deliberately made it so their position could not be expressed accurately in English.  Have you considered that just maybe all those words have interlocked definitions because the people who wrote those definitions had interlocking worldviews?  There has been one common theme in English speaking cultures... I bet you know what that is.

So?

"belief" does not have to have any theological connotations. "Religious belief" is a subset of "belief", not the other way around.

Same way with the word "faith".  In fact, the common method to distinguish between religious faith and all other forms of faith is to capitalize the word when used in a religious context i.e. "Faith".

You will find "belief", "fact" and "knowledge" are defined and used in scientific terms, especially in relation to epistemology, a point which I've been making through out this thread.

Also, in the social sciences.

Finally, is it your position that our Christian philosophical and moral heritage is somehow a "bad thing"?

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/25/2010 9:16:37 AM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 961
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 9:28:31 AM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		Well I'm off to the CogSci lab now, I'll ask the good Dr. if he has any faith in his experiments.  You are the one playing semantic games, I'm not going to go around that block with you.

Our heritage is neither good nor bad, it is.  It is what we do next that matters.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 962
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 12:27:51 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Well I'm off to the CogSci lab now, I'll ask the good Dr. if he has any faith in his experiments.  You are the one playing semantic games, I'm not going to go around that block with you.

Our heritage is neither good nor bad, it is.  It is what we do next that matters.



Making judgments is not helpful but to not recognize where our history has been damaging or not is not cool either. We need to see and learn from our mistakes to help us move forward.

To think atheists are the only ones met with death threats for their beliefs, non-beliefs or life style choices is ridonkulous.

Many many, many, many people have been killed, tortured or threatened to be killed for who they are.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 963
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 12:55:52 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Is it a given that when somebody starts making self evident points about semantics in an argument that they have nothing to back up their position, or is it just a trend?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 964
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 1:00:17 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Well I'm off to the CogSci lab now, I'll ask the good Dr. if he has any faith in his experiments.  You are the one playing semantic games, I'm not going to go around that block with you.

oh.  sorry.  I just used the terms in accordance with common, well understood usage.  Except for atheists, I guess.  Must be part of their belief system.

Your claim of a "semantic game" is the same deflection technique that some atheist use when someone gets to asking serious questions about how they arrived at their views about life, and they can't or won't practice a little objective thinking.

In fact, it is the basis of this thread.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 965
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 1:27:52 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai
Speaking only on my behalf the idea of life just happening is beyond far fetched.

Yeah that is a pretty terrible position. Can you imagine reading that in say Scientific America: theory for the origin of life, it just happened.

Here's my question, can you tnai, name an actual scientific theory for how life began on this planet?

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 966
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 2:00:43 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai
Speaking only on my behalf the idea of life just happening is beyond far fetched.

Yeah that is a pretty terrible position. Can you imagine reading that in say Scientific America: theory for the origin of life, it just happened.

Here's my question, can you tnai, name an actual scientific theory for how life began on this planet?


Isn't this off topic?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 967
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 2:04:10 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai
Speaking only on my behalf the idea of life just happening is beyond far fetched.

Yeah that is a pretty terrible position. Can you imagine reading that in say Scientific America: theory for the origin of life, it just happened.

Here's my question, can you tnai, name an actual scientific theory for how life began on this planet?


Try googling "abiogenesis" and see what you find.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 968
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 2:22:35 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai
Speaking only on my behalf the idea of life just happening is beyond far fetched.

Yeah that is a pretty terrible position. Can you imagine reading that in say Scientific America: theory for the origin of life, it just happened.

Here's my question, can you tnai, name an actual scientific theory for how life began on this planet?


Try googling "abiogenesis" and see what you find.

I was asking tnai.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 969
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 2:36:54 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Fair enough.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 970
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 4:11:33 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		I've heard a very similar argument to his a few times now with all the same catch phrases. If I can get him to list another one of the scientific theories of how life formed, the answer might be interesting.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 971
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 4:40:59 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Here's my question, can you tnai, name an actual scientific theory for how life began on this planet?

Isn't this off topic?

It's absolutely off topic and as I explained to The Dark I don't have a problem with that to a certain extent. I accept that having a conversation about why atheists are being straw manned will to a certain extend involve explaining to people that they are making staw men of our positions. Which is why I didn't tell you to get your own thread when you started talking about faith. However, after 20 or so pages of restating your position I think it's time for you to get your own thread for that. 

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 972
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 4:46:26 PM   
tnai


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
I apologize if this seems insulting that isn't my intent; just an honest answer.  You are making the weakest possible argument right now.  You make no reference to reality and are supporting your argument with your gut feelings.  Do some reading that isn't the bible or other christian commentary, your argument is worse than the middle-of-the-road christian one.  But at least you are being honest that your claim is completely unsupportable, and yes you are falling victim to several fallacies if you have expressed yourself clearly.

 
Good sir, you seemed to have missed the point on a level that is difficult to deal with.
 
First off I would suggest that we refrain from personal remarks such as what I have and have not read, since they are in the end irrelevant. The idea of a God will not be any more or less true based on my reading habits, nor will any logical (or for that matter faith) based line of thought be seriously affected by my habits.
 
Secondly after a careful reexamination of my first remarks I don't find at any point that I admit that my ideas are unsupportable, merely that the original poster may have a point in that those who disagree with him sometimes fall victim to the Straw Man. I then went on to explain why I believe this occurs. If you wish to address those points then please do so. Anything beyond that and the fact that I do believe in a God should be addressed in the form of a question since these are ideas I haven’t stated, unless of course you are of the belief that you have some other method for knowing my belief system. In short the point I was making on my first post was that the idea the current Big Bang followed by Darwinism type evolution with no involvement of a God (or Gods) seems so silly the idea that I could have been using what to you would seem a Straw Man never occurred to me. Those who hold that idea had already taken the weakest possible position. If trying to be polite and admitting that the original poster may have a point (that there is a flaw in the way some people argue against his ideas) is the worst middle of the road type position then sure, you got me. I made no statements about what I do or don't hold to be true and correct, I was addressing the argument method that I others who hold similar ideas do.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Yeah that is a pretty terrible position. Can you imagine reading that in say Scientific America: theory for the origin of life, it just happened.

 
That is in summary what the atheist position reads like to many, me included. As I understand it the current view of the creation of the universe and then life is that (with no outside intervention) it just happened that multiple universes interacted in a way that created the/a Big Bang which began the universe we live in; it then (through a long and complicated process) settled into suns and planets which have (at least) one world with the circumstances for live too appear then evolve into us; all without any events that would have prevented or destroyed human existence. In short it just happened by (for us) fortunate accident. To me this seems at best far fetched.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Here's my question, can you tnai, name an actual scientific theory for how life began on this planet?

 
As I understand it the theories that try to deal with only supportable scientific fact are Bioprocess (although I will admit I had never heard the term Abiogenesis before, which is apparently another term for the same set of closely related theories) the ideas that the main stream science for the most part hold, the what I feel is deservedly less popular idea that extra-terrestrials created life on Earth, and the Scientific Creation (which really just hurt my claims but they claim to be scientific so I'll list them in interests of honesty).
 
Just for the record my idea set would be best classified as theistic evolution or evolutionary creationism, which is not a scientific theory but a theological view.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 973
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:13:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		FR:

Are we to the 50th page yet?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 974
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:14:22 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Almost.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 975
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:15:26 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
I apologize if this seems insulting that isn't my intent; just an honest answer.  You are making the weakest possible argument right now.  You make no reference to reality and are supporting your argument with your gut feelings.  Do some reading that isn't the bible or other christian commentary, your argument is worse than the middle-of-the-road christian one.  But at least you are being honest that your claim is completely unsupportable, and yes you are falling victim to several fallacies if you have expressed yourself clearly.

 
Good sir, you seemed to have missed the point on a level that is difficult to deal with.
 
First off I would suggest that we refrain from personal remarks such as what I have and have not read, since they are in the end irrelevant. The idea of a God will not be any more or less true based on my reading habits, nor will any logical (or for that matter faith) based line of thought be seriously affected by my habits.
 
Secondly after a careful reexamination of my first remarks I don't find at any point that I admit that my ideas are unsupportable, merely that the original poster may have a point in that those who disagree with him sometimes fall victim to the Straw Man. I then went on to explain why I believe this occurs. If you wish to address those points then please do so. Anything beyond that and the fact that I do believe in a God should be addressed in the form of a question since these are ideas I haven’t stated, unless of course you are of the belief that you have some other method for knowing my belief system. In short the point I was making on my first post was that the idea the current Big Bang followed by Darwinism type evolution with no involvement of a God (or Gods) seems so silly the idea that I could have been using what to you would seem a Straw Man never occurred to me. Those who hold that idea had already taken the weakest possible position. If trying to be polite and admitting that the original poster may have a point (that there is a flaw in the way some people argue against his ideas) is the worst middle of the road type position then sure, you got me. I made no statements about what I do or don't hold to be true and correct, I was addressing the argument method that I others who hold similar ideas do.


The reading comment was low, I apologize... moment of weakness. 

That said, I still don't see you saying anything other than that you think that the current scientific view is silly.  That it just seems silly to you.   You are conceding the strawman because you can't see how anyone could understand atheism.  Is that not what you are saying?

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 976
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:15:42 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

Are we to the 50th page yet?

Firm


Not quite yet. Repeat yourself a few times more.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 977
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:21:30 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I was the one who originally said this was a 50 pager. I should get a prize if this post is at the top of the 50th page.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 978
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:23:08 PM   
divi


Posts: 11109
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Offers her a cookie.. I think that's the best you're gonna do here lol

_____________________________

( imho )

I really could use a wish right now

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 979
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/25/2010 5:36:47 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai
As I understand it the theories that try to deal with only supportable scientific fact are Bioprocess (although I will admit I had never heard the term Abiogenesis before, which is apparently another term for the same set of closely related theories)

 
"A bioprocess is any process that uses complete living cells or their components (e.g., bacteria, enzymes, chloroplasts) to obtain desired products" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioprocess 
 
The term bioprocess has nothing to do with the origin of life. I know you've stated that you've read the atheist position (setting aside the issue that this isn't actually an atheist position), my question is have you actually done that or have you read Christian literature which supposedly contained our position? Doesn't it seem a little premature to summarize and judge the credibility of scientific theories when your knowledge does not even extend far enough to name them? Perhaps your understanding of these theories is less than accurate?

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 980
Page:   <<   < prev  47 48 [49] 50 51   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? Page: <<   < prev  47 48 [49] 50 51   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094