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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:36:55 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

being a good person because you are motivated to be so out of your own intrinsic nature is something I am always impressed by....


You should not be impressed by me, you should be depressed for all those who cannot find it within themselves to be moral without an overseer.


I am not impressed by you...

I am impressed by people who are intrinsically motivated to be good people... whether or not you fit that description is for you decide.... I don't even know you....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:40:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

being a good person because you are motivated to be so out of your own intrinsic nature is something I am always impressed by....


You should not be impressed by me, you should be depressed for all those who cannot find it within themselves to be moral without an overseer.


Do you have any clue how pompous that sounds? Thank the goddess we have people like you with such sound morals to show us the way. I may swoon.



I know exactly how pompous it sounds, that's why I saved it for last.  You can thank Julia for setting me up.



So you weren't interested in having a sincere conversation in which you could have an honest interchange without sticking it to people who believe differently than you,... real ethical high ground you have there dude....Go you!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:44:13 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		I claim no high ground. I simply claim to be moral.

That was too good to pass up.  I don't stop being a sadistic manipulator just because I am discussing philosophy. 

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:51:33 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		You look familiar, were you in that film American Psycho?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:52:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I really do not know what your point was, other than to make yourself look like an insincere ass.... if that was what you were after ...Mission Accomplished!

And this....


quote:

claim no high ground. I simply claim to be moral.

Isn't morality religion based and ethics logic based?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/24/2010 1:54:09 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:55:39 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

being a good person because you are motivated to be so out of your own intrinsic nature is something I am always impressed by....


You should not be impressed by me, you should be depressed for all those who cannot find it within themselves to be moral without an overseer.


I am not impressed by you...

I am impressed by people who are intrinsically motivated to be good people... whether or not you fit that description is for you decide.... I don't even know you....

It isn't that unreasonable a point, to be fair. I've always taken exception to this notion that it's impossible to have any moral sensibilities unless they're derived from a religion. That's deeply offensive, and an attempt to exclude atheists from any kind of moral authority, which is a shitty way to co-opt an argument. Surely if you think that this is all we'll ever get, that's more of an incentive to make an effort to treat other people properly, not less?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 6/24/2010 1:57:53 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 1:59:54 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

In Denver, we Atheists attempted to have the Creche display removed from the City & County steps.  Need I say we were unsuccessful?

That's the kind of "in-your-face" things that make December difficult for Atheists.

And "celebrate the Solistice" is NOT a solution.  Why would I celebrate the Solistice?  As you say, it's a scientific fact.  I respond:  Celebrate the Sunrise daily.

So, rather than trying to enforce negativity, why don't you atheists get some holidays, and holiday traditions (other than "Solstice")?

Festivus sounds good for a starter.

That way, instead of tearing down other people, and their beliefs, you can build up your own.

Or, as a "Militant Atheist" do you just enjoy trying to make other people miserable?

Firm



I hate to be in agreement so much with you on this topic, but I was thinking the same thing,..... if people spent more time looking to create their own reality in positive ways and investing themselves into doing things in a proactive way to contribute to that then they would have less time to tell everyone else how what they are doing is wrong....

If you don't like Christmas parties, ignore the invites. Make your own party.... but don't try to keep other people from their good time... I love Christmas, which I call Yuletide...fits right in with my pagan roots...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:02:11 PM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

claim no high ground. I simply claim to be moral.

Isn't morality religion based and ethics logic based?

No, it isn't. Just had a 30 pager on that recently. Look up the "Science and Morality" thread or google Sam Harris.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:03:10 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Last night I prayed to God that this thread would go 50 pages.

So far, my prayers have gone unanswered

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:05:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

claim no high ground. I simply claim to be moral.

Isn't morality religion based and ethics logic based?

No, it isn't. Just had a 30 pager on that recently. Look up the "Science and Morality" thread or google Sam Harris.


I just looked that up.... I agree.... I just think of morals to be story or narrative lessons of the differences between good and evil...but I looked up the definition and it is synonymous with ethics

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:09:24 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Hate to be a twat and keep pissing in your pool, but you are wrong again. From another recent thread on Morals vs. Ethics...

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3149240

<edited to remove all the quotes>

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/24/2010 2:12:13 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:12:53 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		According to the internet definition thingy they called it synonymous, I am not into having semantic debates like this when it really isn't productive to my overall point... you want to do that, have fun.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 932
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:13:56 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Last night I prayed to God that this thread would go 50 pages.

So far, my prayers have gone unanswered



The real question.... is it an ethical or a moral prayer... omg this thread never stops getting more and more stupid

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:15:10 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am not sure.

I did not pray for my own benefit. I prayed for all those souls who would miss this thread if it died.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:19:24 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		God works in mysterious ways.

He probably just wants those depressed souls (that would miss this thread) to kill themselves and make way for new blood.

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:24:01 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

According to the internet definition thingy they called it synonymous, I am not into having semantic debates like this when it really isn't productive to my overall point... you want to do that, have fun.

I am not interested in semantic debates either, but not confusing ethics and morals and implying that one must adopt religious values in order to be moral is central to the arguments being made here and I'm happy to do my part to clear up that misunderstanding for those who might be confused.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 2:24:30 PM   
ModeratorSixteen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
omg this thread never stops getting more and more stupid


Maybe that is because some people have problems with understanding how to keep to a threads original topic and go start their own elsewhere.

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Freedom of expression and personal opinion is a positive input.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 6:21:41 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

being a good person because you are motivated to be so out of your own intrinsic nature is something I am always impressed by....


You should not be impressed by me, you should be depressed for all those who cannot find it within themselves to be moral without an overseer.


I am not impressed by you...

I am impressed by people who are intrinsically motivated to be good people... whether or not you fit that description is for you decide.... I don't even know you....

It isn't that unreasonable a point, to be fair. I've always taken exception to this notion that it's impossible to have any moral sensibilities unless they're derived from a religion. That's deeply offensive, and an attempt to exclude atheists from any kind of moral authority, which is a shitty way to co-opt an argument. Surely if you think that this is all we'll ever get, that's more of an incentive to make an effort to treat other people properly, not less?
Precisely, and that, more often than not, is the strawman - a sort of attempt to copyright the word "morality" itself - similarly, "family values", and "values" in general, invariably assumed to be Christian values - it's always fascinating to watch a Libertarian conservative and an evangelical conservative argue - the Libertarian usually backs down, because it's just hard to come back from being told you have "no moral values", period, when in fact, they're just more carefully thought out and thus, harder to describe than your pre-packaged, off the shelf Christian "values".

Religious values, those that have not been secularized as having empirical value, are the essence of moral relativism - I can find you a half dozen different interpretations of the same scripture, often wildly divergent, like life and death divergent - a lot of it just seems like some weird, arbitrary sort of textualism - as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but an RPG, like Gorean, that some folks take a little too seriously.

And if that sounds like an attack, it is, I fucking sick and tired of these cheap shots coming from the evangelical right - big billboard just down the street: "The Novel Idea That Babies are People Too" - big picture of a baby - not a blastocyst, like a 1 month old baby - fucking please - not only is this the height of deception, but these are the same people cheering the invasion of Iraq - take a look at What the Lord hath Wrought.

Now, lets talk about fucking values.

< Message edited by xssve -- 6/24/2010 6:24:51 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 6:27:06 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		They are entitled to say what they wish on that billboard... freedom of... remember? You can as well. Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish. But the question i have is... why take it out on us?

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 6:51:36 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Perhaps you also didn't notice that the source Tazzy quoted WITHOUT CITING had a statement that what she was quoting was ambiguous and should be changed.


Which was that? Or was it something i had already cited before?


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing.[1][2] The English word is thought to date from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem or fidēs, meaning "trust", derived from the verb fīdere, "to trust".[1]

Cite your source? Is this your source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith  If so your source disagrees with you that this is pure and simple: "It has been suggested that this article be split into articles entitled Faith (religion) and Trust (social sciences), accessible from a disambiguation page."


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