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ORIGINAL: leadership527

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ORIGINAL: lally2
its the whole punishment dynamic going here that bugs me to hell - maybe cos i had to go through that shit too in order to get to the understanding ive reached now.

OK, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I personally find the whole "punishment" gig not only unnecessary but severely lacking in dominance. But that being said, what makes you think that you're new and "enlightened" understanding of what dominance means to you now ought to apply to anyone else? So some woman, new or not, is seeking a thing and that thing involves a man that you don't particularly see as dominant. So what?

Presumably, such a person is in fact finding exactly what they seek. Just as in all things, over time they may find out that their needs are not what they thought or that their needs have changed over time. Then again, they may not. There are at more than a few experienced subs on collarme that view punishment as a core part of the dynamic they seek (and I mean real punishment, not funishment).

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ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

When I was slave, I chose a dom who would beat my ass hard and long, because that's what I'd been craving. It had nothing to do with punishment, and everything to do with surrender, obedience, and luxuriating in our enjoyment of each other. He's a sweetiepie, and was never mean or domineering, or an asshole, etc. When two people's needs and desires fit together well, it feels wonderful. I have many fond memories. We were very happy together.

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Yep. I've been rejected (in prelminary stages, before meeting) by more than one sub for not being Dominant enough. If they were going by The Story of O, I didn't fit the Sir Stephen stereotype. In fairness, I've rejected (at the same stages) several for not being submissive enough as well.

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ORIGINAL: Basti53

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i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant. same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.

Been there, done that. Yes, i was one of those asshats. And faking the kind way dosent work, it just causes drama on a level most people cant even imagine.

I learned my lesson the hard way, the very hard way, and it changed my soul. Sadly, now the subs just keep thinking im not dom enough, or at all, and run to the asshats.

Anything you can do about it? Dont think so. But keep trying, they just dont know, its not their fault, and you could propably save someone from something they dont want to happen.

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ORIGINAL: PeanutTigerinBox

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ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

When I was slave, I chose a dom who would beat my ass hard and long, because that's what I'd been craving. It had nothing to do with punishment, and everything to do with surrender, obedience, and luxuriating in our enjoyment of each other. He's a sweetiepie, and was never mean or domineering, or an asshole, etc. When two people's needs and desires fit together well, it feels wonderful. I have many fond memories. We were very happy together.

I can certainly relate to that

My C-Dom caused my backside to turn black for a rather long time, however for him I would have done almost anything as it is wonderful with the right person...

Now...considering whom I met so far I wish I would have "found the loud, selfish, abrasive, bully types who are not especially dominant, just good at throwing their weight around" as they would certainly have been more dominant then the folks I did meet...that being said, one in between was ok...he was what he claimed to be, however the others could not have been further away from being Dominant as they reprecented more Micky Mouse instead...

Now, whilst I prefer a guy to be from the tougher side, that does not mean that I don't differentiate between a dominant and an abuser, after all being a bit harsher or on the sadistic side does not equals you automatically with an abuser.

In regards to stevies line:

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Yep. I've been rejected (in prelminary stages, before meeting) by more than one sub for not being Dominant enough. If they were going by The Story of O, I didn't fit the Sir Stephen stereotype. In fairness, I've rejected (at the same stages) several for not being submissive enough as well.

I did reject guys for being likely too soft for me, but that's as I know what I am looking for and more importantly what I "need."

If I need somoene who is able to put me in my place at times, then he needs to be able to handle those situations and it does neither help him or myself to pretend that this would not be the case...

on top of that as I am one of the ones who tends to travel to the potential Dom's is no point to waste money and time to meet someone where you doubt that he can handle you. Guys I meet know my quirks and my moments and why they happen or when they are likely to happen (as I know myself well I explain myself well to them before I meet them)...with a dom who is too soft for me in my opinion I would feel I have to control myself harder when I am annoyed as I could hurt him when I get moany mood...

so declining someone as potentially not Dominant enough is nothing negative in my view...its ensuring to avoid that nobodies time and potential feelings or hopes get wasted unneccesarily...and as Stevie said, I know someone who also claimed that he questions me to be submissive enough as I do not consider him as being Dominant enough for me...well, the guy will only find out when he manages to get into my mind...otherwise not, therefore its valid for him to question it, however meeting flakes can in my opinion happen at any stage...you learn more about the red flags and about what to look out for during conversations beforehand...but nevertheless, doesn't mean it can't happen again....

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

People, novices especially, want hot fast NOW. So that's what they get.

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ORIGINAL: limerentgirl
.And having chosen so very badly before, I am completely paranoid.  What's to keep me from making the same mistake again?  Will "mentors" turn out to be users?  How do I know who and how to trust?  How do I pace a developing relationship instead of falling headlong?  I am a good person, but I have made badly flawed choices.

How do I not fly right the h3ll into the maddest flame I can find, to slake these years of pent-up desire?  I don't want to self-immolate but oh god do I want...

My nickname is not lightly chosen: I do crush, I crush hard.  And that makes it all the more difficult to make sane choices because my mind gets aswirl with such heady emotions, it makes it so hard to focus, to think about the sensible things.  Just the want remains.  LOL I need the Dune Litany Against Fear for limerence!  And brownie points to yalls who understand that.  But it's so hard because the want drives me and it does not want "no."

.I need to learn trust again, from a man who deserves my trust and respect.  I need to learn how to fill my needs while not being a filthy whore (unless/until daddy says so).  An impossible wishlist?  It sometimes seems that way.  

So sisters, and gentlemen, I am at your feet to learn and try not to burn.  Teach me!

Thank you so much.

~

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: peanuttigerinbox
If I need somoene who is able to put me in my place at times, then he needs to be able to handle those situations and it does neither help him or myself to pretend that this would not be the case...

on top of that as I am one of the ones who tends to travel to the potential Dom's is no point to waste money and time to meet someone where you doubt that he can handle you. Guys I meet know my quirks and my moments and why they happen or when they are likely to happen (as I know myself well I explain myself well to them before I meet them)...with a dom who is too soft for me in my opinion I would feel I have to control myself harder when I am annoyed as I could hurt him when I get moany mood...

so declining someone as potentially not Dominant enough is nothing negative in my view...its ensuring to avoid that nobodies time and potential feelings or hopes get wasted unneccesarily...and as Stevie said, I know someone who also claimed that he questions me to be submissive enough as I do not consider him as being Dominant enough for me...well, the guy will only find out when he manages to get into my mind...otherwise not, therefore its valid for him to question it, however meeting flakes can in my opinion happen at any stage...you learn more about the red flags and about what to look out for during conversations beforehand...but nevertheless, doesn't mean it can't happen again....

thats all very true - they do need to handle you, me, whomever - that moment of clear, decisive control that sits you back and makes you pay attention.  it differentiates between those who are interested in Topping and those who are inherently, capably dominant. 

ive definitely met my share of guys who are actually not in the least bit dominant but have accessed this because they want a sub to submit to herself, basically do the job for him so he has some meak mannered doe-eyed thing to spank and tie up and be there. some have been stiff and austere, some have been almost apologetic, some have been decidedly luke warm and most of them i went no further with.

having said that ive discovered personally speaking that a lively personality wih definite ideas who doesnt so much dish out orders but creates a space for me to settle into where his thoughts ideas and input is so compelling that to not go his way feels wrong.  there is more of the compulsion to please Him that is totally overwhelming - to push or test in order to be taken down feels completely innappropriate.

i mean i totally and 101% understand that pushing thing, i have in the past earned a beating because i needed to be crushed and squashed. particularly as my 'strength' as a sub took wings and i became more confident and not a little bit arsey. but you and i can own up to that and say that we definitely earned it

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: Basti53

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i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant. same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.

Been there, done that. Yes, i was one of those asshats. And faking the kind way dosent work, it just causes drama on a level most people cant even imagine.

I learned my lesson the hard way, the very hard way, and it changed my soul. Sadly, now the subs just keep thinking im not dom enough, or at all, and run to the asshats.

Anything you can do about it? Dont think so. But keep trying, they just dont know, its not their fault, and you could propably save someone from something they dont want to happen.

hugs Basti ,

im not sure there is an answer, unless you try feeding into their need for that show of Uber Domlyness and gradually, once youve got them hooked, turn them around to how you really want it to go.  it would be all about timing and absolute control - be a bit devious and get those newbies by playing them at their own game a bit - just a thought.

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ORIGINAL: PeanutTigerinBox
.and lol...indeed...when I get put into my place then I certainly know I earned it.....and in regards to pushing...well, if he doesn't have to show his dominant side to be in charge that he means what he says, what shows me then that he is dominant in the first place?

is it about showing so much though.  isnt it more about the guy instilling a willingness in you to do as he asks/expects/requires.  if you push he'll push back, but so would a vanilla, so would anyone surely.  when i pushed it was to get smacked down, but i wasnt always, often the guy im thinking of knew that was what i was after and just didnt play along.

If I dont push then I can just follow orders from my cat and can stop looking for mr. right...anyone can do the talk...just not that many the walk...

challenging a Dominants dominance would get old though, surely.  it would be like them challenging youre submission - after a while youd start feeling that if he doesnt believe in you why bother submitting.

Once I know he means what he says I get calmer and more obedient as I am far from being a masochist...however I need to be sure that this is the case as I don't trust myself over to someone blindly...

i get that totally, consistancy is really really important, there has to be follow through, but why for you does it have to be a show of violent strength.  what is that thing going on in you as a non-masso.  being taken down can be hot, youve earned it sure, but its hot ticketty hot hot hot - but you can be taken down without it needing to come from you actually challenging his dominance.  you can just say ' i need to be taken down'  would that work as well for you -

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ORIGINAL: lally2
im not espousing my way at any one at all - im really just exploring why newbies go through this baptism of fire very often.

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ORIGINAL: lally2 -- theres nothing at all to protect you - you can have rheams of experience and still phuck up

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ORIGINAL: leadership527

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ORIGINAL: lally2
.Me: So you want to be my slave, right?
Her: Yes, I want to be your slave and obey you totally and have you punish me if I don't?
Me: I thought you wanted to obey me totally? Why would I have to punish you?
Her: Because I won't actually obey you totally and if you're afraid to force me to, then you're not really a master

theres nothing wrong with that situation if all the cards are on the table and everyone knows where they are and knowingly continues.  ok - for the sake of clarity here - a young, inexperienced sub did something silly a while back. the guy shed met once, made no definite decision on them continuing or not so she continued to remain in contact with 'friends' on the site she was using.  he found out and blocked all of her friends and contacts, beyond that i dont know what happened to her but apparently he was furious.  why furious i have to ask - since they had no definite dynamic, they had only met once, she was a young newbie with no idea how the system worked or even if he was interested enough in her.
 
now you can continue along with that story, and maybe he took his fury out on her - then you get into the territory im trying to explore here.  newbie subs head for thwacking, punishment driven asshats.  im not saying that happened but it does happen.


OK, at this point, I think the girl in question is a wannabe slave and she thinks I'm a wannabe master. So we go our separate ways and we find people who are compatible with our own needs and desires. How did either of us get to be right or wrong in any absolute sense?

because if it felt right or wrong to them they acted upon that belief - the trouble begins when newbies dont know what is right and what is wrong they just assume that their thwacking, punishment driven asshat of a Dom is right because he says he is.

Put differently again, I'll use a specific example since I'm pretty sure she won't object.

Daddysprop's master is, near as I can tell, quite a bit more harsh with his expectations and punishment than I am. I strongly suspect that by my standards he would be "one of those nasty men yada yada". The only problem with this is that my standards really don't matter and he seems to be making her pretty damned happy. By my standards he might "beat the crap" out of her for doing some "silly little thing"... but what if it's not beating the crap out of her by THEIR standards and what if it's not a silly little thing BY THEIR standards?

daddysprop is not a newbie and they have been together for ten years.  she is very happy and i hope the newbie i mentioned is too - but what happened suddenly and out of the blue sky was over played and over reacting and unsympathetic to her newness.
 
i have no standards to measure against anyones dynamic im not so arrogant to assume that - if it works for them then thats fabulous, but so far as i can tell that is a relationship with all of the cards on the table, both people know where theyre at and are content with that.  in fact i would say she is perfectly and ideally suited to her daddy.


In short, I'm not stupid. I understand what it is that you are saying. But I'm not agreeing with your right to make these judgements about bad/good on other people's behalf.
 
like i said before, im exploring why newbie subs head for the heavy handed sorts.  what is it going on inside that means they bypass the gentle approach and go for the thwacking, punishment people.  clearly one or two subs, including myself went through this process of being attracted to them.  so fine, its what some do and some dominants bemoan the fact that because they are gentle, caring and humourous these subs dont consider them dominant enough.
 
im not judging anyones relationships at all  - the example i gave which was instrumental in creating this thread was over a situation that was not yet a relationship in the submissives eyes, no rules, boundaries or understanding of what she could or could not do had been established, no 'next date' had been fixed.  she was uncertain of her position.  the more seasoned amongst us might have waited to find out what he had to say next time he contacted her, but she wasnt seasoned, she was very very new to it all.   taking that as an example then:
 
yes i found his anger and his reaction innappropriate.  a more experienced Dom would have taken a more gentle line i think, considering her newness and because he had left her without any certainty.
 
from that premis i continue to ask the question of why new subs go for and stay with a situation that is clearly over the top.  answer:  i still dont know but LA kinda hit it on the head - because its hot to be taken and overwhelmed when youre new and want to be possessed - so cool - enter the people who really shouldnt be messing about with happy, flighty, uncertain newbies trying very hard to find their way and if they get it wrong it wasnt because they intended to or were trying to push or disobey.
 
it was a case of misunderstanding and miscommunication on his part more than anything and yet she got smacked down, not because she was actively pushing or actively disobeying - quite the opposite in fact, she was genuinely confused and wanted to know what to do.
 
im not talking about relationships that are already established and happy, have settled in and the sub is in her element.  im talking about the newbies who are just trying to find their way whilst being attracted to or predated by domineering asshats.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to leadership527)

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ORIGINAL: Basti53

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: Basti53

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i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant. same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.

Been there, done that. Yes, i was one of those asshats. And faking the kind way dosent work, it just causes drama on a level most people cant even imagine.

I learned my lesson the hard way, the very hard way, and it changed my soul. Sadly, now the subs just keep thinking im not dom enough, or at all, and run to the asshats.

Anything you can do about it? Dont think so. But keep trying, they just dont know, its not their fault, and you could propably save someone from something they dont want to happen.

hugs Basti ,

im not sure there is an answer, unless you try feeding into their need for that show of Uber Domlyness and gradually, once youve got them hooked, turn them around to how you really want it to go.  it would be all about timing and absolute control - be a bit devious and get those newbies by playing them at their own game a bit - just a thought.

Indeed an idea, but it would just hurt myself to play something that isnt me. Im not a actor, im a honest human being.
And these days, i always keep in mind that the one that may be submitting torwards my will is still a human, with their own ideas, memorys and soul. I never want to really hurt someone ever again.

Its just bloddy complicated.

Still, good idea girl, going to give it a try if i can. Who knows what develops out of this. :)

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ORIGINAL: lilredsubmarine
Take heart, lally, that those who are willing to learn WILL take the time to learn. But anyone who is willing to blindly accept what one asshat "dominant" tells them is true without also doing their own research and thinking for themselves-- well, i don't have much patience for stupid/ignorant people at the best of times, and i'm a big supporter of Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection..

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

The guy with the goofy anteater avatar is sometimes viewed as not being serious about our precious lifestyle.

I wonder why?