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lally2 -> newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 1:00:27 AM)

something that happened yesterday and the fact that ive reached its polarity got me thinking.

why is it that newbie subs inevitably end up with loud, selfish, abrasive, bully types who are not especially dominant, just good at throwing their weight around.  not always but very often.

i realise that i went through this too, to start with.  men with punishment on their mind, quick to accuse you over something stupid and trivial. 

i used to think 'where the hell were all the decent guys when i was new!' and, ill admit, i blamed them a bit for not showing up.  but the fact is they probably did, i just wasnt equating gentlness, patience, kindness and caring with a dominant man.  if a guy didnt throw his weight around i didnt think he was dominant.  so it was my fault not theirs and it has taken me until now to realise that a loving man, kind, gentle and considerate can be a strong leader of me, control me through his kindness and make me want to meet that in return, rather than me being made to for fear of punishment.

its the whole punishment dynamic going here that bugs me to hell - maybe cos i had to go through that shit too in order to get to the understanding ive reached now.

so im just sharing and blowing off steam a bit.  but also just wondering what youre earlier experiences were on this - was this how you started out too or were you more together [:D]



DarkSteven -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 3:28:03 AM)

Yep.  I've been rejected (in prelminary stages, before meeting) by more than one sub for not being Dominant enough.  If they were going by The Story of O, I didn't fit the Sir Stephen stereotype.  In fairness, I've rejected (at the same stages) several for not being submissive enough as well.



DesFIP -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 4:42:51 AM)

Whether it's a bodice ripper or porn, that's how dominant men are always portrayed. I don't know one movie where the quiet, unassuming man immediately gets the girl.



Focus50 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 4:54:17 AM)

I can relate. I've had my share of newbies pass me by because I wasn't some brash and loud alpha-male type. I've made mention of it in my profile - the difficulties of measuring up to an inexperienced submissive's ideals of what a Dom is.

We've all heard the horror stories of newbie's getting flogged black and blue by some abusive arsehole they trusted etc.... But what are you gonna do? It's not like you can warn them. Are they really gonna take advice from a stranger Dom who they don't feel is so dominant...? And if you don't even have that level of a sub's respect, you'll just sound desperate and pathetic for even trying to help them out.

I've got a lot of time for newbies but I'm not into wasting my time on lost causes. Not anymore, anyway.... You can teach a child that fire burns but sometimes you just hafta sit back and let them poke at the flame with their own finger.

Focus.



Jeffff -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 4:57:12 AM)

The guy with the goofy anteater avatar is sometimes viewed as not being serious about our precious lifestyle.

I wonder why?



tazzygirl -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 5:24:43 AM)

Sadly, i think its a phase most submissives need to go through. I certainly did. Sometimes its the frogs themselves that show us the real princes.



SimplyMichael -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 5:29:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

why is it that newbie subs inevitably end up with loud, selfish, abrasive, bully types who are not especially dominant, just good at throwing their weight around.  not always but very often.



Because I had to start somewhere. That was very much me when I started all of this, far more domineering than healthy dominant

quote:

i used to think 'where the hell were all the decent guys when i was new!' and, ill admit, i blamed them a bit for not showing up. but the fact is they probably did, i just wasnt equating gentlness, patience, kindness and caring with a dominant man. if a guy didnt throw his weight around i didnt think he was dominant. so it was my fault not theirs and it has taken me until now to realise that a loving man, kind, gentle and considerate can be a strong leader of me, control me through his kindness and make me want to meet that in return, rather than me being made to for fear of punishment.


Took me a LONG time to get there too but all I can say is that is a lot more fun and a hell of a lot more stable!



dreamerdreaming -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 7:43:42 AM)

When I was slave, I chose a dom who would beat my ass hard and long, because that's what I'd been craving. It had nothing to do with punishment, and everything to do with surrender, obedience, and luxuriating in our enjoyment of each other. He's a sweetiepie, and was never mean or domineering, or an asshole, etc. When two people's needs and desires fit together well, it feels wonderful. I have many fond memories. We were very happy together.



kiwisub12 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 8:07:59 AM)

I was lucky enough to miss the loud dom and jumped straight into the frying pan. He explained what he wanted and asked if i could be that submissive, and when i replied that i didn't know because it was all new, but i would like to try it - he said fair enough.   And we never looked back.

Friends in the lifestyle were amazed, because he did play hard (damn, its hard to keep the tenses right) but he never went past that which i could handle. He was a bit of a show off in public and also kind and caring and i consider myself very lucky that he was my first.

I would like to say it was because i was so smart and discerning - but it really wasn't that at all  -  just plain luck  on my part. [:)]



Mercnbeth -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 8:09:39 AM)

quote:

so im just sharing and blowing off steam a bit. but also just wondering what youre earlier experiences were on this - was this how you started out too or were you more together


this slave started out submitting to folks who didn't verbally identify as "dominant", neither of us had any clue that this "lifestyle", where folks base their interactions off of a D/s paradigm, even existed.
abuse abounded and this slave accepted it...until her life was in danger of being taken away from her.

this slave got to the point where she figured "submissive" was a negative trait that NO-ONE would ever appreciate in a partner...and since she had no interest in struggling through an egalitarian relationship or faking dominance...even from time to time...she decided being ALONE was what would be in store for her for the rest of her life.

3 years of single living, taking her own self out for birthday dinners, etc....she made a trip to the MD for help to quit smoking and he suggested she needed to change her "lifestyle" to an alternative one than the "smoking" lifestyle she had been a part of. after googling "lifestyle"...she came across a wealth of information about alternative lifestyles---M/s, D/s, etc.

6 weeks after discovering that folks existed who appreciated and WANTED a submissive partner, this slave met Master.

this slave had a lifetime of experience with submission, being teased and put-down for it, being taken advantage of by manipulators and abusers who couldn't care less the damage they did---and none of them hid behind any mask of self-appointed "Dominant".

so, to sum up, this slave's experience is one where, as soon as she discovered this "community", as it were, and started to interact with it, she found folks who were self-aware, confident and kind who also had an appreciation for submission...something she NEVER came across in the world of conventional relationships and interactions. of course, there are assholes...like the way SimplyMichael describes how he used to be...but that certainly wasn't anything this slave had never experienced before.



lally2 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 8:21:54 AM)

i guess its something these subs have to find out for themselves.  eventually you learn that trying to please the unpleasable, reach the unreachable and submit to the unsubmittable really is a hiding to nowhere.  i guess they have to find that out like alot of us did, no harm done in the end - except that in some cases harm is done.

im thinking of that 20 year old mistoferin has mentioned and others who have suddenly dissappeared never to be heard of again - swollowed up by the predators on the fringes looking for easy meat and inexperience.

right now im feeling quite sad about it - ah well - have a good weekend guys. xx



lally2 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 8:31:06 AM)

beth, i smiled as i read youre post because it pretty much mirrored my vanilla experience.  i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant.  same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.

i know, controversial view point - but today i dont care.[:)]

guys like SM and others have turned some corner with this - id imagine alot of guys 'have to start somewhere' - in fact its nice to hear that there is a process of learning for Dominants too, i hadnt thought of that atall.

have to shoot, thanks guys for youre thoughts on this, i dont know why im feeling so funkey about this today. xx



Missokyst -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 8:54:41 AM)

I was lucky. I started before computer access. There was no concept of pushy and abrasive equating to dominance, and in fact from my pov guys like that were just bullies. However, there is no question in my mind that I was then and still am, attracted to men who just made things happen; dragging me along in their wake.
New people read too much (of the crappy stuff), and research in chat rooms where the world is much different. When they do get the guts to meet real people the combination of porn, need, and so called protocal can lead them into bad choices. It takes a few falls before they can find sure footing, if they ever do.



Mercnbeth -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 9:03:41 AM)

quote:

i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant. same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.


of course...predators are attracted to the places prey hang out...and the really adept ones are indistinguishable from the landscape~they blend right in.



lally2 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 10:54:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I was lucky. I started before computer access. There was no concept of pushy and abrasive equating to dominance, and in fact from my pov guys like that were just bullies. However, there is no question in my mind that I was then and still am, attracted to men who just made things happen; dragging me along in their wake.
New people read too much (of the crappy stuff), and research in chat rooms where the world is much different. When they do get the guts to meet real people the combination of porn, need, and so called protocal can lead them into bad choices. It takes a few falls before they can find sure footing, if they ever do.


well now you say that, but my first experience of Ds was when i was 21 - naive as hell. he didnt call it Ds, he didnt explain anything to me but after i started reading up on all of this ten or so years ago i was able to go 'aha! - now i know what the idiot was trying to do'.  he'd clearly read about it somewhere - anyway, he was an abusive SOB.  he confused the hell out of me and totally screwed me up for other relationships, it took me a good 5 years to find the courage to go out with anyone again.  i realised today that i have unresolved issues about that. 

hence this... whatever it is -

mind you, if a newbie is reading this maybe theyll pick the message up.  lets hope.

the trouble is that in those early frenetic stages the idea of being swallowed up by a big bad man is incredibly hot - its like shooting fish in a barrel really - just witnessing it first hand rattled me i spose.  xx



lally2 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 10:56:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant. same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.


of course...predators are attracted to the places prey hang out...and the really adept ones are indistinguishable from the landscape~they blend right in.


i hadnt looked at it like that - but yes, well put!



leadership527 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 11:20:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
its the whole punishment dynamic going here that bugs me to hell - maybe cos i had to go through that shit too in order to get to the understanding ive reached now.
OK, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I personally find the whole "punishment" gig not only unnecessary but severely lacking in dominance. But that being said, what makes you think that you're new and "enlightened" understanding of what dominance means to you now ought to apply to anyone else? So some woman, new or not, is seeking a thing and that thing involves a man that you don't particularly see as dominant. So what?

Presumably, such a person is in fact finding exactly what they seek. Just as in all things, over time they may find out that their needs are not what they thought or that their needs have changed over time. Then again, they may not. There are at more than a few experienced subs on collarme that view punishment as a core part of the dynamic they seek (and I mean real punishment, not funishment).



Basti53 -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 11:21:42 AM)

quote:

i wonder though - as more and more people access this - whether those vanilla abusers are creeping in here and calling themselves Dominant. same abusive asshats, but with a nice shiney new title and licence to go with it.


Been there, done that. Yes, i was one of those asshats. And faking the kind way dosent work, it just causes drama on a level most people cant even imagine.

I learned my lesson the hard way, the very hard way, and it changed my soul. Sadly, now the subs just keep thinking im not dom enough, or at all, and run to the asshats.

Anything you can do about it? Dont think so. But keep trying, they just dont know, its not their fault, and you could propably save someone from something they dont want to happen.






limerentgirl -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 11:54:52 AM)

Holy moly, exactly.  Only I'm coming at it entirely sideways.  I am just now emerging from my closet/crysalis, completely raw from a lengthy marriage that was abusive, and VERY! hesitantly looking to unfurl my wings in this particular slice-of-life. 

My story (and apologies so long): 

I have always swung sub, and have always liked a bit of ruff-play.  I doubt that I'll ever be anyone's 'slave' per se (lol hope that sassy statement doesn't come back to haunt me), because I am a strong personality, and both love and deserve being treated like a princess by a strong dominant daddy-type. 

I'm also picky as h3ll: I'm a "stud-muffin", which I don't know if that's anyone's term but mine lol: I'm a very curvy girl who is into big, buffed men (a plumper who likes'em pumped! a bbw who goes for buff!) -- and let me tell you how hard THAT wishlist is to fill! 

I was forever being told that as a "fat chick" -- remember, last time I was single was the late 80s, and this entire world where bbws run proud and folks are openly, happily and successfully in relationships of all flavors effectively didn't exist, thank you for the internet AMEN -- I had no right-to or expectation-of finding the kind of guy who turned me on, that I had to take what I could get and be grateful for it -- and wasn't that what a sub did?  Ah the naivete of youth!

So what did I do?  I married the guy you are talking about -- the big, brash bohunk guy.  Oh yah he had the guns, and he was dominant alright, but it only took a few years into marriage to discover that his ideas of dominance were founded in some pretty serious misogyny.  My trust was crushed, my kinky fantasies twisted fearfully, and I finally had to step back, disengage and go through the painful process of getting out. 

And even that became a weird, but much more inward journey, as over the last 4+ celibate years (yep, count'em: read it and weep for me, children), I've had time-and-to-spare to think about the things that happened that I hated, the things that I barely got a taste of, the things that I liked, and ohh, the things that kept me up at night with my hand between my legs -- and to work on separating all that experience and potential from that particular person.  Time to read-read-read online, to lurk in communities. Time to chat-up quite a few guys who thoroughly disturbed me, even more who just didn't "click" for myriad reasons, and one-or-2 who were decent people.   Time to play a little all by myself, which while lonely was also a learning experience.

All of which distills down into a still-not-entirely clear but certainly strong tendency to being a sub in a relationship, to whatever degree.  The devil is in the details of what sort of sub, because there are so many flavors.  I need precious treatment, both because I innately deserve it as a decent human being and a girly-girl, but also specifically because of the damage and baggage I bear.  I need someone deeply compassionate and tender who still knows how to go to the Other Places that I crave.  I need to be protected and to bond, even as I am made to beg for sweet, body-racking release.

And having chosen so very badly before, I am completely paranoid.  What's to keep me from making the same mistake again?  Will "mentors" turn out to be users?  How do I know who and how to trust?  How do I pace a developing relationship instead of falling headlong?  I am a good person, but I have made badly flawed choices.

How do I not fly right the h3ll into the maddest flame I can find, to slake these years of pent-up desire?  I don't want to self-immolate but oh god do I want...

My nickname is not lightly chosen: I do crush, I crush hard.  And that makes it all the more difficult to make sane choices because my mind gets aswirl with such heady emotions, it makes it so hard to focus, to think about the sensible things.  Just the want remains.  LOL I need the Dune Litany Against Fear for limerence!  And brownie points to yalls who understand that.  But it's so hard because the want drives me and it does not want "no."

And part of me just wants to play right now: Relationship? I've been in a cage for d*mn near a decade and I want some fun!  But that way lies madness and getting my heart broken, my azz handed to me.  I'm not really built that way, much as I do love the thrill of the hunt, the mating dance, the moments before that first kiss, gad that heat... 

In my saner self, I know that the best for me would be to be-with someone who will let me play that way, who will give me a good long leash with his firm grip on it.  Who might let me just kiss a guy sometimes, just because I can...and then remind me why I want his hand on the leash...

I need to learn trust again, from a man who deserves my trust and respect.  I need to learn how to fill my needs while not being a filthy whore (unless/until daddy says so).  An impossible wishlist?  It sometimes seems that way.  

So sisters, and gentlemen, I am at your feet to learn and try not to burn.  Teach me!

Thank you so much.

~



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: newbie subs idea of what dominance is (6/18/2010 12:00:19 PM)

People, novices especially, want hot fast NOW. So that's what they get.



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