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A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 10:37:49 AM

TheHeretic

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I hope some of the folks on the opposition side in the death penalty thread will offer their thoughts here. I happen to think this crime was sufficiently heinous to warrant that, but justice took a different path and the situation is what it is. The first two links are old coverage, but only one detail is new here. He's about to get out.

Meet Donald Schmidt, a state's oldest youth offender - NPR link to 2005 story

Last year, the New York Times ran another, more sympathetic, version of the story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/us/26juvenile.html Sympathy aside, they did include this;

quote:

“Over all,” Dr. Starrett testified, “he seems to be in the high to high-moderate range in propensity for future violence.”

Which brings us to the latest update, the part where he is about to be released, and the specific question;

When he is placed in a halfway house, does the community need to be informed?

format edit

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/19/2010 10:43:41 AM >

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 10:46:06 AM

DomKen

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It seems to me that the fault lies with the prosecutors who failed to try this guy as an adult. If he truly is an ongoing danger to society then he should have been in prison all this time with a life sentence. But he was tried as a juvenile and should have released many years ago.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 11:01:00 AM

housesub4you

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Now 38, Schmidt was promised a shot at parole after two juries last year failed to find cause to keep him jailed any longer and he will be set free by the end of the month, so long as the state Parole Board approves his release.

It still has to be approved, 1 of his convictions was overturned. I agree with the fault lies with the Prosecution for not trying him as an adult.

But how would the death penalty have stopped this from happening? The other thread you refereed to was about the death penalty being a determent to the crime of murder.

In states that have the death penalty; crimes like this most sadly still occur.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 11:08:39 AM

LadyPact

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Had the sodomy conviction not been overturned, it would seem to Me that the community would have to be aware of his placement, just like every other sex offender. He'd have to register like everyone else. Since that's been taken away, I don't know if they have a legal precedent to actually inform the community of any more than what they already know. That there is a half-way house in their neighborhood.

If they release him, we'll just have to wait through the end of his days to find out if the death penalty would have been better in this man's case or not. It's entirely a question of whether or not he kills again.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 11:22:33 AM

TheHeretic

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According to the second page of the NYT story, the decision on how he was tried was made by a judge.

There is a perfectly good thread already for discussing the death penalty. My hope was to hear from some there on the aspect of very bad people who get a chance to do it again. That is a risk we take with not executing anybody for anything, right? The question here is of informing the community about what is being placed in their midst.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/19/2010 11:23:35 AM >

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 11:41:32 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

According to the second page of the NYT story, the decision on how he was tried was made by a judge.

There is a perfectly good thread already for discussing the death penalty. My hope was to hear from some there on the aspect of very bad people who get a chance to do it again. That is a risk we take with not executing anybody for anything, right? The question here is of informing the community about what is being placed in their midst.

I know for a fact that two women are dead because of death penalty convictions. Investigate the Brian Dugan for the details.

So I don't see the death penalty as a panacea.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 11:50:05 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

According to the second page of the NYT story, the decision on how he was tried was made by a judge.

There is a perfectly good thread already for discussing the death penalty. My hope was to hear from some there on the aspect of very bad people who get a chance to do it again. That is a risk we take with not executing anybody for anything, right? The question here is of informing the community about what is being placed in their midst.

Re 2008 SCOTUS decision against death penalty for rapists of children:

"“I disagree with the decision; I have said repeatedly that I think the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstance for the most egregious of crimes.” Obama told forty or so reporters. “I think that the rape of a small child, six or eight years old, is a heinous crime, and if a state makes a decision under narrow limited well defined circumstance the death penalty is at least potentially applicable"

I am sure his opinion would be inclusive for a 3 year old as well.

I have not found out why the sodomy charge was thrown out.
His attorney used the 'abuse that was done to him' as a mitigating factor. I don't doubt it. He was high risk to begin with. I believe that kind of evil (especially done by a juvenile offender) isn't born, it's made. I don't think it can be unmade.

It doesn't excuse anything he did whether or not he is capable of understanding his actions fully.
The state had 21 years to figure something out and they didn't.

I am against the death penalty.

edit:typo

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 6/19/2010 12:07:41 PM >

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 12:29:10 PM

TheHeretic

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Not gonna answer the question, huh, Ken? It's not a trap. I'd like to know what you think about how this release should be conducted.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 12:42:49 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Not gonna answer the question, huh, Ken? It's not a trap. I'd like to know what you think about how this release should be conducted.

He should be released to a half way house. He should be monitored by the state in accordance with the existing law. I oppose all forms of community notification. That is simply incitement to lynching.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 12:45:03 PM

vincentML

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quote:

I hope some of the folks on the opposition side in the death penalty thread will offer their thoughts here. I happen to think this crime was sufficiently heinous to warrant that, but justice took a different path and the situation is what it is.

I think you are setting up a false choice here. If he had been tried as an adult and there were no death penalty it is conceivable that he would have received life in prison without parole. And possibly if there were no death penalty a judge would not have hesitated to try him as an adult. But he did and that is the crux of the problem imo, not the pros and cons of the death penalty.

Maybe the solution is that in death penalty States the sentencing judge should have the alternative of life without parole and State mandated guidelines for a special category for juveniles who commit murder. They could then be sentenced if guilty to life without parole, held in a juvenile facility, and then transferred to an adult facility at a later age.

Even with that you would likely have some people in future years who would argue he should be released because he is changed and no longer a danger to society. Nevertheless, the push back to keep him in jail would be a lot easier since it would be out of the hands of a Parole Board hopefully.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 2:11:53 PM

Arpig

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well one charge was overturned (for whatever reason) and two juries found no reason to keep him locked up, so I say give him his shot at parole, its a hearing, its not guaranteed. As to the notification thing, I don't think its a good thing.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 2:24:06 PM

eyesopened

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I'm just trying to figure out why the State of California would find it appropriate to lock a pedaphile up with children if they are convinced he is actually a pedaphile.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 2:26:54 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I'm just trying to figure out why the State of California would find it appropriate to lock a pedaphile up with children if they are convinced he is actually a pedaphile.

They overturned the sex charge.
Technically he isn't a pedaphile and he will not have to register as one.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 2:29:58 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

well one charge was overturned (for whatever reason) and two juries found no reason to keep him locked up, so I say give him his shot at parole, its a hearing, its not guaranteed. As to the notification thing, I don't think its a good thing.

Here is the more recent history of that:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/circare/html/sca_template.jsp?sortBy=mngi&similarTo=&similarType=find&type=any&aff=3&query=Donald+Schmidt&view=entiresitesppublished

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 3:33:56 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He should be released to a half way house. He should be monitored by the state in accordance with the existing law. I oppose all forms of community notification. That is simply incitement to lynching.

So first you blame the prosecutors, when a judge made the decision about his status, now you say the state should watch him without knowing that the state has recently abdicated parole supervision to the local authorities.

It's interesting that you seem to have less faith in the community than in a man who has already committed a horrible murder and is considered a "high to moderate high risk" to commit further violent acts. Do you think his rights are more important than those of the innocents who may well have him living next door?

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 3:54:33 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think you are setting up a false choice here.

I don't think I've set up anything of the sort, Vince. Any discussion of what sentence he received, and what guidelines he received that sentence under, are moot. Unless the final hearing is something other than the expected rubber stamp on previous rulings, he is being released, most likely into a neighborhood.

The question is whether they tell the neighbors. I'm curious for all answers, not just of death penalty opponents. It does seem like they should have good ones though, since leaving killers alive is going to increase the odds of some returning to the streets.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:35:47 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It seems to me that the fault lies with the prosecutors who failed to try this guy as an adult. If he truly is an ongoing danger to society then he should have been in prison all this time with a life sentence. But he was tried as a juvenile and should have released many years ago.

I think that we as a society need to decide what we define as an adult.

There have been children as young as 12 tried as adults.

Then we have 20 year-olds returning from Iraq who can't buy a beer legally.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for what he did, but at some point you have to establish a standard and not decide things on a case-by-case basis.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/19/2010 4:47:58 PM >

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:39:05 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He should be released to a half way house. He should be monitored by the state in accordance with the existing law. I oppose all forms of community notification. That is simply incitement to lynching.

So first you blame the prosecutors, when a judge made the decision about his status, now you say the state should watch him without knowing that the state has recently abdicated parole supervision to the local authorities.

It's interesting that you seem to have less faith in the community than in a man who has already committed a horrible murder and is considered a "high to moderate high risk" to commit further violent acts. Do you think his rights are more important than those of the innocents who may well have him living next door?

I'm sure california works the same as most otehr states. If the prosecutors want to try a juvenile as an adult they have to get a hearing in front of a juvenile court judge to move the case to criminal court. Therefore if the case should have been tried as an adult, certainly other 16 olds were being tried as adults then, the burden was on the prosecutors to convince a judge. Therefore if the judge ruled to keep the case in juvenile court its because the prosecutors did not convince him that it should be moved. In the future you might want to get teh facts straight before going off on someone claiming they don't know what they're talking about.

So what let the local parole authorities do the monitoring, it's still the state, as in the government, doing the monitoring and its still in accordance with the existing law.

You say he is high risk of being violent again. That is very troubling, maybe spending 13 years longer than his sentence in jal has something to do with it, but it doesn't strip him of his citizenship or his rights. He's done more than his time he deserves a chance to walk free. Notifying the public is just an incitemnt to lynching and I don't support it ever.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:43:59 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think you are setting up a false choice here.

I don't think I've set up anything of the sort, Vince. Any discussion of what sentence he received, and what guidelines he received that sentence under, are moot. Unless the final hearing is something other than the expected rubber stamp on previous rulings, he is being released, most likely into a neighborhood.

The question is whether they tell the neighbors. I'm curious for all answers, not just of death penalty opponents. It does seem like they should have good ones though, since leaving killers alive is going to increase the odds of some returning to the streets.

And what warning did Meliss Ackerman and Donna Schnorr get. Their killer was supposedly locked up forever on death row. Of course in reality a couple of brown skinned men were convicted for political purposes and the real killer of Jeanine Nicarico went on to kill both ofg these women. So answer me this supporter of the death penalty how do you prevent those deaths?

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:46:26 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
.
It doesn't excuse anything he did whether or not he is capable of understanding his actions fully.

Of course it does.

That's why people are able to plead guilty by reason of insanity and receive treatment instead of jail.

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 20

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