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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:53:23 PM   
Arpig


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quote:


Here is the more recent history of that:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/circare/html/sca_template.jsp?sortBy=mngi&similarTo=&similarType=find&type=any&aff=3&query=Donald+Schmidt&view=entiresitesppublished
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

well one charge was overturned (for whatever reason) and two juries found no reason to keep him locked up, so I say give him his shot at parole, its a hearing, its not guaranteed. As to the notification thing, I don't think its a good thing.


Here is the more recent history of that:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/circare/html/sca_template.jsp?sortBy=mngi&similarTo=&similarType=find&type=any&aff=3&query=Donald+Schmidt&view=entiresitesppublished
Thanks for the update angelika, it seems that the two juries didn't find there was no reason to keep him locked up so much as couldn't come to a unanimous decision to keep him locked up, even though the majority of jurors in each case felt he should remain incarcerated...a very different situation. I am really torn about notifying the locals of his release...the law seems to say they will not be notified, but I am not entirely sure I agree with the law. I am not comfortable with notification in any situation, but I can understand those who feel they should be notified...even in non-sex-related cases...so I am going to place myself in the great undecided.


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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:53:42 PM   
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I say, yeah, let the public know. If some guy that killed a little child is living near me, I want to know, I deserve to know. I'm not saying someone should burn his house down, as long as he doesn't fuck up, anyway.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 4:58:18 PM   
TheHeretic


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Typical squirm, Ken. The judge made the call.

That aside, would you care to elaborate on how you are defining the lynch mob? I'll tell you what, as soon as you google up some examples of a released inmate being dragged from his bed and murdered by a mob of citizens, I'll find you something on released predators who killed again, or killed the next one. Because I don't give a shit if the neighbors protest the halfway house, and plaster his picture in every window.



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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 5:02:33 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I hope some of the folks on the opposition side in the death penalty thread will offer their thoughts here. I happen to think this crime was sufficiently heinous to warrant that, but justice took a different path and the situation is what it is. The first two links are old coverage, but only one detail is new here. He's about to get out.

Meet Donald Schmidt, a state's oldest youth offender - NPR link to 2005 story

Last year, the New York Times ran another, more sympathetic, version of the story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/us/26juvenile.html Sympathy aside, they did include this;
quote:

“Over all,” Dr. Starrett testified, “he seems to be in the high to high-moderate range in propensity for future violence.”



Which brings us to the latest update, the part where he is about to be released, and the specific question;

When he is placed in a halfway house, does the community need to be informed?


format edit




That depends on the state's statute. Here someone adjudicated under the juvenile code is not a sex offender. What's interesting though is he was held in a juvenile facility as an adult. They have to have separate physical sections for adults and children. California seems to be a bit different in that, here and the states surrounding, once he becomes an adult, he is subject to a board of mental health comittment. We're not bound to just continue to treat him under the juvenile code, if he's a danger to himself or others and is over 18, he goes to an adult psychiatric correctional facility.

Also, the intent standard for a child can be different than that for an adult. It's quite possible the sodomy charge was thrown out on that issue and yes his prior history would be relevant. As far as the death penalty goes, he wouldn't be eligible for it because of his age. While it is safe to assume there are many adults that are beyond rehabilitation, the law usually does not do so for children. Thus, the preference for juvenile court is because that court is specifically designed for rehablitation and monitoring (in theory at least, after the federal budget cuts it's very unlikely many many children will get any help at all).

Ironically though, because juvenile courts aren't bound by all of the constitutional requirements of determinate sentences, it is MORE likely that kids will serve LONGER sentences than in adult court. As heinous as you may think this case is, I've seen people out in the community after 5 years for similar offenses as adults. Under the juvenile code (which apparently in CA extends a longass time) if they aren't rehabilitated, they stay locked up. That's not true for adults absent them being an obvious danger to themselves or others.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/19/2010 5:12:02 PM >


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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 5:17:07 PM   
thompsonx


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Do you have a clue as to why minors are not tried as adults?

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 5:47:11 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


I don't think I've set up anything of the sort, Vince. Any discussion of what sentence he received, and what guidelines he received that sentence under, are moot. Unless the final hearing is something other than the expected rubber stamp on previous rulings, he is being released, most likely into a neighborhood.


Why then did you invite death penalty opponents to comment, Rich?

quote:

The question is whether they tell the neighbors. I'm curious for all answers, not just of death penalty opponents. It does seem like they should have good ones though, since leaving killers alive is going to increase the odds of some returning to the streets.


So you did not have an agenda when you invited comments from death penalty opponents.

Well, of course you are aware what the answer is from the previous thread. A number of death row inmates have been subsequently found innocent. Furthemore, convictions have occurred for reasons that have not always done honor to the American system of justice. So here you have the case of a killer set free because he was tried as a juvenile. On the one hand we have innocent men wrongly convicted and here a guilty man who is set free although possibly a danger to the community. Yes, as you say: leaving killers alive is going to increase the odds of some returning to the streets. And taking lives by the State is going to increase the odds of killing innocent men. The one case reported by you may be dramatic, emotional, and unfortunate but it does not make an argument for continuing the death penalty. It makes an argument for the States to review how they legislate against children who are killers.

What is the legal standing of the issue? Here is an AP report from 2005. You can google it under "execution of minors."


quote:

The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the Constitution forbids the execution of killers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes, ending a practice used in 19 states. The 5-4 decision throws out the death sentences of about 70 juvenile murderers and bars states from seeking to execute minors for future crimes. The executions, the court said, were unconstitutionally cruel. It was the second major defeat at the high court in three years for supporters of the death penalty. Justices in 2002 banned the execution of the mentally retarded, also citing the Constitution's Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishments.


Evidently SCOTUS does not agree with your solution, Rich.

As stated earlier, my own pov is that kid killers get life without parole with appropriate Legislative guidelines and this dilemma will have less probability of happening again.

Should the receiving community be warned? Not without enabling Legislation. Will people in the warned community be more vigilant? At first maybe but for how long can a community maintain a heightened sense of alarm?



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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 5:59:31 PM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Do you have a clue as to why minors are not tried as adults?


I do.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 7:03:46 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
[regarding] very bad people who get a chance to do it again. That is a risk we take with not executing anybody for anything, right?


Isn't this also the risk we take in not executing everyone for everything?

All killers begin with smaller crimes; by executing wife beaters, we can save the lives of the future murder victims.

All sociopaths begin by torturing animals, as young children. It follows, doesn't it, that we could save a lot of lives by executing children who tie firecrackers to puppies tails.

This particular criminal may or may not be rehabilitated. But I think we as a society have lost our nerve, our belief in rehabilitation and salvation, and want to assume a 100% risk-free criminal justice system. Notice how the burden of proof seems to be with the accused- he is being asked to prove that he will not do something in the future- how does someone do that?

Until we enter the world of Minority Report, where we can confidently predict the future actions of people, we have to take a certain risk in letting people go free who have served their time.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 9:18:43 PM   
TheHeretic


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Lots of nonsense and distraction, Rex, but when we release the people who have done their time, do the neighbors get told who is moving in?

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 9:27:35 PM   
TheHeretic


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This is not the other thread, Vince.

California does have laws that not only allow sexual predators to be identified, but requires it. Schmidt, courtesy of having one element of his conviction overturned, may not meet the standard for that. Which in no way changes that he is considered a high to moderate high risk (that's the pshrink verdict, not mine) to engage in further violent acts.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 10:37:37 PM   
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When people have served their time, they have paid their debt to society.

Informing the neighbors doesn't serve any purpose other than to stigmatize people and prevent them from reintegrating into society.

If people are still dangerous after serving their time, then we obviously haven't established a long enough term.

But there's the rub- no matter how long someone serves, there are still prosecutors who will assert that they are "dangerous"; so this leads to making every sentence a life sentence, or at least making every convict serve a lifetime of stigma and being outcast. And this doesn't benefit society at all.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/19/2010 11:49:14 PM   
TheHeretic


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So you'll be hiring him to paint your place then, Rex? After all, he just needs a chance, right?

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/20/2010 3:35:27 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


The one case reported by you may be dramatic, emotional, and unfortunate but it does not make an argument for continuing the death penalty. It makes an argument for the States to review how they legislate against children who are killers.

What is the legal standing of the issue? Here is an AP report from 2005. You can google it under "execution of minors."


quote:

The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the Constitution forbids the execution of killers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes, ending a practice used in 19 states. The 5-4 decision throws out the death sentences of about 70 juvenile murderers and bars states from seeking to execute minors for future crimes. The executions, the court said, were unconstitutionally cruel. It was the second major defeat at the high court in three years for supporters of the death penalty. Justices in 2002 banned the execution of the mentally retarded, also citing the Constitution's Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishments.


Evidently SCOTUS does not agree with your solution, Rich.

As stated earlier, my own pov is that kid killers get life without parole with appropriate Legislative guidelines and this dilemma will have less probability of happening again.

Should the receiving community be warned? Not without enabling Legislation. Will people in the warned community be more vigilant? At first maybe but for how long can a community maintain a heightened sense of alarm?




I was glad you posted this.

The reason why I posted what I did earlier even though it was not applicable in this case was I wanted to squash the automatic argument about how all the liberals are usually categorized.
It was a bit of sleight of hand.

What is concerning to me about this case is that the state did not feel confident in their methods of rehabilitation to let him go earlier than this.
That is troubling to me.

The state did recognise this issue overall and fixed the law.
The have remedied the situation so that there will be no more Donald Schmidts sitting in juvenile halls for 20 years.

edit to fix quote

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 6/20/2010 3:36:50 AM >


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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 12:54:22 AM   
Vendaval


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Not that I want this guy housed nearby, but he sounds like a good candidate for ASH, Atascadero State Hospital. I don't think he should be released and still is a danger to the public.


"Code Description Disposition Alternatives
PC 1370 Incompetent to Stand Trial -- patients are educated to understand the nature of their pending court proceedings, and to be able to cooperate with their attorney. Return to court, return to other state hospitals, Conservatorship.

PC 1026 Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity
. Conditional Release Program, other state hospitals.

PC 2684 Mentally Ill Prisoners -- transfers from the Department of Corrections for psychiatric stabilization. Parole, return to Corrections, continued hospitalization as a Mentally Disordered Offender or other civil commitment.

PC 2962/2964 Mentally Disordered Offenders -- inmates from the Department of Corrections who serve their parole time at ASH. Conditional Release Program or Parole.

PC 2972 Mentally Disordered Offenders
whose parole has expired. Conditional or Unconditional Release.

http://www.dmh.ca.gov/services_and_programs/state_hospitals/atascadero/Legal_Commitmen

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 1:10:22 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I'm just trying to figure out why the State of California would find it appropriate to lock a pedaphile up with children if they are convinced he is actually a pedaphile.


They overturned the sex charge.
Technically he isn't a pedaphile and he will not have to register as one.


Technically there is no such thing as a pedaphile. ;)

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 1:13:24 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen



maybe spending 13 years longer than his sentence in jal has something to do with it.


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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 1:18:35 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


What is concerning to me about this case is that the state did not feel confident in their methods of rehabilitation to let him go earlier than this.


So youve bought the myth of rehabilitation, I see.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 3:08:56 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

When people have served their time, they have paid their debt to society.

Informing the neighbors doesn't serve any purpose other than to stigmatize people and prevent them from reintegrating into society.

If people are still dangerous after serving their time, then we obviously haven't established a long enough term.

But there's the rub- no matter how long someone serves, there are still prosecutors who will assert that they are "dangerous"; so this leads to making every sentence a life sentence, or at least making every convict serve a lifetime of stigma and being outcast. And this doesn't benefit society at all.


The rub is

"A 2002 study survey showed that among nearly 275,000 prisoners released in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years, and 51.8% were back in prison.[51]"


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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 3:41:41 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Do you have a clue as to why minors are not tried as adults?


Science has shown that the area of the brain that deals with impulse control and complex reasoning is not fully developed in most people until around the age of 25.  Auto insurance actuaries have know this for years, which is why there is normally a premium discount after the age of 25.

So basically, the brain isn't finished in its development.  That would be one reason.

It would make more sense (in my opinion) to revise the juvenile justice system than to try children as adults and send them to big-boy/girl prison.

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RE: A tough case in criminal justice - 6/21/2010 8:34:15 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened


Science has shown that the area of the brain that deals with impulse control and complex reasoning is not fully developed in most people until around the age of 25.  Auto insurance actuaries have know this for years, which is why there is normally a premium discount after the age of 25.



Not quite. They have known for years that they have more accidents. They dont give a damn whether its brain development or aliens that cause it.

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