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RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 8:54:46 PM

nakedthinker

Posts: 39
Joined: 1/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

There is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, Nake, and there are plenty of other crazy, chaotic, wild places in the world where the Islamic Crazy People can set up shop while we are throwing fine young men and women into that meatgrinder.

1) I stated quite clearly that I feel that anything resembling a victory would be 20 to 100 years away because a cultural shift in the native people of Afghanistan would be required, and such a cultural shift usually requires education of a new generation.

2) I never denied that the continued war in Afghanistan would be a meatgrinder. I clearly stated estimates of losses in the thousands or tens of thousands. However, the logistics of achieving the military portion of the victory would be no more difficult that when we took several mountainous jungle cave/tunnel filled islands from the Japanese near the end of World War II. Note that in those battles, losses in the thousands or tens of thousands in a matter of days was typical, but the battles did not last more than a month or two.

3) You are correct that there are plenty of "other crazy, chaotic, wild places in the world where the Islamic Crazy People can set up shop" and it is way past time that our leaders start to be honest with us about that. Every year in the United States, more than 30,000 people are killed in automobile wrecks, and yet, we have opted to accept these loses as regrettable but part of the cost of using our automobiles. We can either get serious about fighting a real war with Al Quada wherever they are, or we can decide to give up on this war against them and start accepting annual losses at the hands of Al Quada at least similar in magnitude to what we lose to automobile wrecks. Notice that I am not advocating either decision. I am simply stating that the decision, one way or the other, will be forced on us by Al Quada.

< Message edited by nakedthinker -- 6/22/2010 8:58:47 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 61

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 8:59:26 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

I think you are wrong.

We can always ignore your silly little thoughts and proceed with our lives.

So we get attacked, what kind of pussies do they raise down there in Texas? Are you afraid of a few terrorists?

Here in Chicago we dare those fuckers to try something. But I guess we are cut from a different cloth.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/22/2010 9:03:58 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to nakedthinker)

Post #: 62

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 9:55:07 PM

Brain

Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline

Initially, I was of the opinion he should be fired like most people. However, after listening to Keiths’ special comment I changed my mind.

Olbermann on the self-destruction of McChrystal - Video
President Obama shouldn't accept a resignation from the general

Video

Olbermann on the self-destruction of McChrystal
June 22: In a Special Comment, Countdown’s Keith Olbermann argues that President Barack Obama shouldn’t accept a resignation from Gen. Stanley McChrystal.
Countdown
SPECIAL COMMENT

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37859569/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 63

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 10:36:45 PM

Whiplashsmile4

Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
BlowBoy

Hijack alert

Didn't we have enough of this shit when Bush II was in the White House? His name is Barack Obama. He is the President of the United States, whether you voted for him or not. A little respect to the office he holds is appropriate, Whipla.

You are, of course, free to express yourself as you please. We, in turn, are free to judge you based on that, and grant you credibility in line with how we judge you.

End hijack

While it might not be apparent, I was mocking (making fun of) the previous name calling that occured on this thread. Do a quick back track of previous posts and you'll see.

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 64

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 10:41:50 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

That's quite the false choice you are throwing out there, Nake. Do you actually have such a narrow world view, or do you just think you'll get away with defining all the options?

I'll play along for a minute. Tell me, what cultural shifts do you think might occur here in the States as we toss generation after generation to their deaths, and the savings of everyone trying "fix" a place where they like it broken?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to nakedthinker)

Post #: 65

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 10:45:32 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

I've spoken to that poster previously, Whipla, but that has nothing to do with you choosing to perpetuate it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)

Post #: 66

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/22/2010 11:26:18 PM

nakedthinker

Posts: 39
Joined: 1/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's quite the false choice you are throwing out there, Nake. Do you actually have such a narrow world view, or do you just think you'll get away with defining all the options?

I'll play along for a minute. Tell me, what cultural shifts do you think might occur here in the States as we toss generation after generation to their deaths, and the savings of everyone trying "fix" a place where they like it broken?

As far as cultural changes in the United States, you have to realize that Al Quada has already forced us to have cultural changes. For example, no more leaving the country and coming back in unless you first obtain a passport, and no more seeing your loved one off at the airport gate, etc. Trival inconveniences such as that are just the tip of the iceberg. Simply put, Americans don't get the option of not changing our culture in SOME manner to react to the activities of Al Quada.

By just walking away from a country (Afghanistan) where a large part of the country is not controlled by Afghan central government, we ARE on the path to some major attacks against our country. If we want to continue to pretend that if we just leave our current military involvements, and ignore Al Quada (hoping that they will go away and leave us alone), it is only a matter of time before Iran makes nuclear weapons, and someone from Al Quada obtains one from Iran or Pakistan or even North Korea. Al Quada will not negotiate (unless we agree to scrap our entire way of life in favor of their thoughts on the matter), and will never stop at anything to destroy western civilization. They would not hesitate to use any type of weapon against us which they can obtain.

As for preventing generations of American soldiers from getting killed in Afghanistan, given sufficient force inside of Afghanistan to actually search or seal every cave in Afghanistan (just as we had to do in World War II to take those islands away from the Japanese), we would find that many of the enemy combatants in Afghanistan would be discovered and then captured or killed. We are not even close to having enough people in Afghanistan to be able to do this.

Clearly, because neither Al Quada or Taliban fighters wear uniforms (as the Japanese did), they have the advantage of being able to blend into the peaceful civilian population. However, it is still easy to spot the guys carrying AK-47s and mortars on the street, and any sane civilian not looking for a firefight would understand that such behavior is inappropriate in the face of an American occupation.

You also have to realize that just as in Iraq, many enemy combatants in Afghanistan are actually fence sitters, and they will change sides very quickly, or just go home, if they sense that their side is losing. Give those people a reason to stop fighting (like the ability to earn a living and have a normal life), and they will in fact just go home and stop fighting. That would not totally stop the loss of American soldiers, but it would greatly reduce it.

As far as other options, if you have what you think is a better suggestion, feel free to suggest it. Did I simplify the available options? Sure... there ARE some other choices that I ignored. For instance, we COULD just irradiate the entire country of Afghanistan with radiation that would make the whole country permanently uninhabitable. However, I thought that killing 28 MILLION Afghans would not justifiable, and also would not help our interests in winning the hearts and minds of the rest of that region.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 67

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 1:11:02 AM

nakedthinker

Posts: 39
Joined: 1/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I think you are wrong.

We can always ignore your silly little thoughts and proceed with our lives.

So we get attacked, what kind of pussies do they raise down there in Texas? Are you afraid of a few terrorists?

Here in Chicago we dare those fuckers to try something. But I guess we are cut from a different cloth.

Actually, I was born and raised in the city limits of Chicago, and I find it both sad and amusing that you seem to think that you would have the opportunity to get into something like a saloon brawl with Al Quada operatives intending to detonate a nuclear device in Chicago.

Try this on for a scenario in relation to your dare toward Al Quada to do something: A yacht sails up the St. Lawrence Seaway into the Great Lakes. It enters the harbor off Grant Park and drops anchor. Many feet below the yacht, it has been towing a water-proof container containing a nuclear tipped missile. The submersion in the water does a wonderful job of shielding any detectable radiation, if Chicago actually had any radiation detection sensors.
The container is raised through the hidden hole in the center floor of the yacht. The missile is raised through the retractable roof of the yacht and fired about 1,500 feet into the air as it arcs to the west over downtown. Within seconds of the missile launch, the bomb detonates within hundreds of feet of the Sears Tower observation deck. The low-tech Hiroshima sized bomb only has a yield of 12 kilotons and some nearby skyscrapers actually continue to stand after the blast. However, the force of the explosion is sufficient to gut every downtown skyscraper within a one mile radius when the bomb detonates, and everyone inside of that radius is instantly killed. From approximate Ground Zero at Wacker Drive and Madison Avenue, every building out to Grand Avenue to the north is destroyed or gutted. The Sears Tower has been pushed so hard from the force of the explosion and it snapped in two and collapsed. The Chicago City Hall, the Prudential Building, and Merchandise Mart are all destroyed. The John Hancock Building is still standing but its entire internal contents have been blown out through what it left of its northeast corner. Everything from Wacker Drive to the east all the way back to the lake is destroyed, including the Art Institute. Grant Park... trees, fountains, monuments... everything has been leveled and burned. The University of Illinois to the southwest has also been leveled and destroyed. Of course, the terrorists and their yacht were instantly incinerated negating any opportunity to interrogate them.

As I already noted, this scenario describes the blast effects of a small, 12 kiloton Hiroshima sized bomb. The bomb could easily be 10 or 20 times larger.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 68

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 3:28:47 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Best thing to do? Tell the Chinese the place is full of valuable minerals and then issue the withdrawal order around October.

Then sit back and watch next spring as either the Chinese get bogged down into a ten year counter insurgency (less likely) or watch as the Chinese use the sort of methods we wouldnt stand for to sort the place out (far more likely) in under 2 years. Either way its a win for us.

Well whaddya know? We just did tell the Chinese the place is full of valuable minerals and we are preparing the ground for withdrawal.... which is why McChrystal wants out now, so he isnt painted as having failed; a defeated American general is rarely a welcome one anywhere in retirement. He'll have to handle it carefully though, any wise politician would attribute the need to withdraw, and the failure of the mission, to those in charge of it - which gets a bit sticky for the politican too if he makes a big scene of being in charge.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to nakedthinker)

Post #: 69

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 5:47:49 AM

DomYngBlk

Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nakedthinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

There is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, Nake, and there are plenty of other crazy, chaotic, wild places in the world where the Islamic Crazy People can set up shop while we are throwing fine young men and women into that meatgrinder.

1) I stated quite clearly that I feel that anything resembling a victory would be 20 to 100 years away because a cultural shift in the native people of Afghanistan would be required, and such a cultural shift usually requires education of a new generation.

2) I never denied that the continued war in Afghanistan would be a meatgrinder. I clearly stated estimates of losses in the thousands or tens of thousands. However, the logistics of achieving the military portion of the victory would be no more difficult that when we took several mountainous jungle cave/tunnel filled islands from the Japanese near the end of World War II. Note that in those battles, losses in the thousands or tens of thousands in a matter of days was typical, but the battles did not last more than a month or two.

3) You are correct that there are plenty of "other crazy, chaotic, wild places in the world where the Islamic Crazy People can set up shop" and it is way past time that our leaders start to be honest with us about that. Every year in the United States, more than 30,000 people are killed in automobile wrecks, and yet, we have opted to accept these loses as regrettable but part of the cost of using our automobiles. We can either get serious about fighting a real war with Al Quada wherever they are, or we can decide to give up on this war against them and start accepting annual losses at the hands of Al Quada at least similar in magnitude to what we lose to automobile wrecks. Notice that I am not advocating either decision. I am simply stating that the decision, one way or the other, will be forced on us by Al Quada.

Clearly being naked doesn't help you think. "Islamic Extremism" as it is coined is not even remotely the biggest threat to this Democracy. It is silly to even think that it could be. Is it a threat to the Kingdoms and Fiefdoms that make up the Arab world that does business with us? Yes......and that is one reason why we are in both Iraq and Afghanistan. There is an economy with a Billion people growig at a rate of at least 10% per year unabated that are poised to supplant the USA as the largest economy. With that goes all the spoils of the ability to rule in all things economic on this globe. That is our biggest threat. Just one small act.....such as moving us away from the Dollar "standard" to say ....the "euro" would cause such a shift in our economic reality that I am not sure we could survive.

(in reply to nakedthinker)

Post #: 70

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 5:55:48 AM

DomYngBlk

Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nakedthinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

By just walking away from a country (Afghanistan) where a large part of the country is not controlled by Afghan central government, we ARE on the path to some major attacks against our country. If we want to continue to pretend that if we just leave our current military involvements, and ignore Al Quada (hoping that they will go away and leave us alone), it is only a matter of time before Iran makes nuclear weapons, and someone from Al Quada obtains one from Iran or Pakistan or even North Korea. Al Quada will not negotiate (unless we agree to scrap our entire way of life in favor of their thoughts on the matter), and will never stop at anything to destroy western civilization. They would not hesitate to use any type of weapon against us which they can obtain.

Ok, I can play your game. Show me the casual relationship you describe between walking away from a country and then that country coming and attacking us. Just show me one time that it has happened. Al Queda is a nice "boogeyman" that was invented so that the boys in the game could have someone to throw at us to think that we should be scared. Should we? Add up the amount of auto fatalities in one year and subtract the amount of fatalities from terrorist attacks by al queda in one year.

We can be scared about anything that we want to. Or we can simply make a policy to contain the virus and go on with our lives. If you want to be remain terrified that somehow Al Queda is going to show up in Chicago with a nuclear bomb so be it. Just don't ask me to fund a war to go after them with mens and womens lives.

(in reply to nakedthinker)

Post #: 71

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 6:17:20 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

clears throat.

the CIA created Alqueda!

(in reply to DomYngBlk)

Post #: 72

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 6:22:55 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

if Alqueda is responsible for 9-11 and the CIA created Alqueda- this means the US made its own bed.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 73

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 6:35:52 AM

MasterCord

Posts: 144
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

excerpts

Does it rise to the level of prosecutable treason?

The one who should be taken down for treason, is "President" Obama....

McChrystal is a hero. He said it like it is....there is a clueless, empty suit in the White House. and backing him up is a cast of fools. Those clueless people are costing lives. He was simply saying what a large part of the military currently believes...that they do not have a "Commander In Chief".

If McChrystal is raked over the coals for this by the Democrats....be prepared....the reaction will not be pretty.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 74

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 6:49:26 AM

MasterCord

Posts: 144
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline

Except that the scenario you envision is not supportable by naval architecture and maritime operational constraints. It ignores the St. Lawrence Seaway and the maritime security steps present along the length of the Seaway, including sophisticated nuclear material detection systems. The Seaway from day 1 was seen as a potential terrorist pathway and a lot of money was funneled into its' security because it is a choke point in which you can detect and contain a threat pretty easily. Practically speaking the towing of a missle in a watertight enclosure under a vessel is pretty near impossible for a lot of technical reasons. Good comic book story line but not going to happen in the real world.

You're also not going to launch a missile off even a megayacht....and if you got it into Lake Michigan off Chicago...you'd just detonate it anyway.....

MC

quote:

ORIGINAL: nakedthinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I think you are wrong.

We can always ignore your silly little thoughts and proceed with our lives.

So we get attacked, what kind of pussies do they raise down there in Texas? Are you afraid of a few terrorists?

Here in Chicago we dare those fuckers to try something. But I guess we are cut from a different cloth.

Actually, I was born and raised in the city limits of Chicago, and I find it both sad and amusing that you seem to think that you would have the opportunity to get into something like a saloon brawl with Al Quada operatives intending to detonate a nuclear device in Chicago.

Try this on for a scenario in relation to your dare toward Al Quada to do something: A yacht sails up the St. Lawrence Seaway into the Great Lakes. It enters the harbor off Grant Park and drops anchor. Many feet below the yacht, it has been towing a water-proof container containing a nuclear tipped missile. The submersion in the water does a wonderful job of shielding any detectable radiation, if Chicago actually had any radiation detection sensors.
The container is raised through the hidden hole in the center floor of the yacht. The missile is raised through the retractable roof of the yacht and fired about 1,500 feet into the air as it arcs to the west over downtown. Within seconds of the missile launch, the bomb detonates within hundreds of feet of the Sears Tower observation deck. The low-tech Hiroshima sized bomb only has a yield of 12 kilotons and some nearby skyscrapers actually continue to stand after the blast. However, the force of the explosion is sufficient to gut every downtown skyscraper within a one mile radius when the bomb detonates, and everyone inside of that radius is instantly killed. From approximate Ground Zero at Wacker Drive and Madison Avenue, every building out to Grand Avenue to the north is destroyed or gutted. The Sears Tower has been pushed so hard from the force of the explosion and it snapped in two and collapsed. The Chicago City Hall, the Prudential Building, and Merchandise Mart are all destroyed. The John Hancock Building is still standing but its entire internal contents have been blown out through what it left of its northeast corner. Everything from Wacker Drive to the east all the way back to the lake is destroyed, including the Art Institute. Grant Park... trees, fountains, monuments... everything has been leveled and burned. The University of Illinois to the southwest has also been leveled and destroyed. Of course, the terrorists and their yacht were instantly incinerated negating any opportunity to interrogate them.

As I already noted, this scenario describes the blast effects of a small, 12 kiloton Hiroshima sized bomb. The bomb could easily be 10 or 20 times larger.

(in reply to nakedthinker)

Post #: 75

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 6:57:12 AM

MasterCord

Posts: 144
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline

...and yes...I know President Obama is the sitting President of the United States and I try to make sure I use his title in my postings.....so before anyone goes postal over my "President" Obama reference above....it has to do with the man's lack of respect for his own nation and his lack of leadership on any level....not his office.

MC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCord

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

excerpts

Does it rise to the level of prosecutable treason?

The one who should be taken down for treason, is "President" Obama....

McChrystal is a hero. He said it like it is....there is a clueless, empty suit in the White House. and backing him up is a cast of fools. Those clueless people are costing lives. He was simply saying what a large part of the military currently believes...that they do not have a "Commander In Chief".

If McChrystal is raked over the coals for this by the Democrats....be prepared....the reaction will not be pretty.

(in reply to MasterCord)

Post #: 76

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 6:57:35 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

BlowBoy

Hijack alert

Didn't we have enough of this shit when Bush II was in the White House? His name is Barack Obama. He is the President of the United States, whether you voted for him or not. A little respect to the office he holds is appropriate, Whipla.

You are, of course, free to express yourself as you please. We, in turn, are free to judge you based on that, and grant you credibility in line with how we judge you.

End hijack

Hogwash alert. The "office of the Presidency" hasnt deserved respect as a position at least since Clinton disgraced it. It was futher disgraced when an inexperienced incompetent was elected because people thought it would be cool to say they voted for a black guy. I could give a fuck what you base your judgement of people on, respect is earned, whether its a Master or a POTUS. I judge people by their actions and their accomplishments. Blowboy gets far more respect than he's earned.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 6/23/2010 7:05:52 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 77

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 7:03:43 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCord

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

excerpts

Does it rise to the level of prosecutable treason?

The one who should be taken down for treason, is "President" Obama....

McChrystal is a hero. He said it like it is....there is a clueless, empty suit in the White House. and backing him up is a cast of fools. Those clueless people are costing lives. He was simply saying what a large part of the military currently believes...that they do not have a "Commander In Chief".

If McChrystal is raked over the coals for this by the Democrats....be prepared....the reaction will not be pretty.

Unfortunately incompetence and treason arent the same thing or Obama would have had an address at Gitmo for a while now. I agree though...its a tough line for the Dems to walk, particularly because McC didnt actually dis him that badly. McC is a great military mind and is loved by the troops. As I said earlier, this could be a very complex chess game set up by McC to get things done right in the ME.

(in reply to MasterCord)

Post #: 78

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 10:24:52 AM

brainiacsub

Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

FR~

Just heard the breaking news. McC has in fact been relieved of command. No word yet on his replacement.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 79

RE: Should McChrystal be fired for the Rolling Stone in... - 6/23/2010 10:27:15 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Apparently Obama is less concerned with not pretty reactions from wingnuts than he is with American Policy.

Good!!!!!

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 80

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