RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences

RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (Full Version)

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laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/25/2010 5:49:49 PM)
Yeah but the question remains, theoretically how do you know if someone is a drama queen when engaging in emotional sadism? One would be expecting and even desiring an emotional reaction I would guess. Where is the line between reaction and drama? I'm not referring to any paticular scenario, I'm asking hypothetically on the subject.

IronBear -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/25/2010 7:34:00 PM)
I have no idea laurell, emotional sadism is just not my cup of tea. Negative reactions after a pain session is something I expect depending who it is, or for that matter any amount of emotional responses. Drawing the line between temper tantrums and Drama Tantrums I use body language and history including immediate history as a guide and after then gut feeling.

laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/25/2010 7:40:11 PM)
yes but reactions to physical pain aren't necessarily logical, would you think they would be to emotional/mental pain?

IronBear -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/25/2010 7:48:41 PM)
Based not on kink experience but on life experience I would say so and indeed would believe that the emotional and mental pain could be far more devastating than mere physical pain which can be handled relatively easily. But then any Psychologist and Psychiatrist of any worth understands this.

Plasticine -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/25/2010 10:07:17 PM)
I think what one needs to watch for is how the person responds to subtle correction and suggestions, sarcasm and humor. If the person introspects when their mind is drawn to themselves that is a good sign, if they consistently express confusion from those things then they need to be handled with kid gloves or not at all. I do think that a drama queen can be rehabilitated but it requires a complete commitment to doing so as they are going to require constant attention for being made to feel vulnerable in a confusing way. These are high-maintenance people so its not too hard to spot if you think them through. Its just easy to get blinded by one's own desires. A common psychology in women is when they feel deep down that their appearance is the only reason that a man would want them... this leads to deep seated fears that maybe they are pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside, and the more invested in their looks they are the more true the statement. This is a cultural problem to be sure but the extreme cases are usually on the border of narcissistic/histrionic personality disorders. (In men its the fear that women only want them for their power or money, more often than not with the similar fear that they have little else to offer) At least that's how I understand it.

laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/25/2010 11:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Based not on kink experience but on life experience I would say so and indeed would believe that the emotional and mental pain could be far more devastating than mere physical pain which can be handled relatively easily. But then any Psychologist and Psychiatrist of any worth understands this. I think that's definitely true, we focus on that which we can see and understand though. Bruises fade, bones mend, but bad memories are forever. But that wasn't my point. If we say it's acceptable (for argument's sake) for a physical masochist to respond illogically or even inappropriately to physical pain, why would it not be true of an emotional masochist responding with illogical or even irrational emotions? Because we have no idea how to address that?

IronBear -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 12:33:00 AM)
That sounds like a reasonable answer. I do believe that the ultimate answer (if there be one) is education in dealing with unexpected responses in a similar way the Law Enforcement are trained to deal with tons of verbal abuse. At times trying to placate the person only appears to add fuel to the fire, where as a more stoic response, which I would imagine be not expected, make it harder for the person over reacting to continue for any length of time. For this reason I used to teach Security Officers the value of the plastic smile aka the Jimmy Carter Smile. If you are in control and do not allow the behaviour of another to unset you or at least appear not to, it is akin to a parent dealing with a child's tantrum when they refuse to buy into it and deal dispassionately, or as I used to do with my boy, roar with laughter and tell him he best practice more because he wouldn't get an Oscar for his performance. Inevitably, he ended up giggling. At other times, I have simply burst out laughing and in a loud voice complemented the tantrum thrower (adult) on their fine performance. In either case it works.

Plasticine -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 5:58:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 But that wasn't my point. If we say it's acceptable (for argument's sake) for a physical masochist to respond illogically or even inappropriately to physical pain, why would it not be true of an emotional masochist responding with illogical or even irrational emotions? Because we have no idea how to address that? I think you must first make the distinction of whether or not the person is aware that they enjoy emotional pain in this case. If they are aware then irrational emotions are par for the course and presumably the person is open to appropriate aftercare and amends if necessary. If they are not aware, but are just say "a glutton for punishment" irrational emotions are a serious danger. Its a much clearer issue in the physical sense because well, its a beating. But in the emotional sense there are tons of vanilla women who like to be treated badly by selfish assholes and will never even admit it. So once you have a self professed masochist, I really question whether or not they care what type of pain it is. They may care intellectually, but on a gut response level... pain is pain. I know that goes against certain community ideas, but if you look at it in a social sense there is some truth there.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 6:54:34 AM)
Sorry, but emotional masochism isn't a kink and more than self cutting is. Its dysfunction masked with a pretty name. Playing into that is like saying "but she enjoys being a battered woman" which to someone clueless is the same as saying "but she enjoys intense pain play". The fact is the two things are worlds apart.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 7:31:24 AM)
What Michael said. Women---and men---might stay in abusive relationships, but they are people who need help, not people who are feeding a kink subcconsciously.

IronBear -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 9:21:53 AM)
G'day Michael and LadyHibiscus, I do believe you both forgot that there are masochists both emotional and physical who will either self explode emotionally or self harm as a means of self punishment particularly if they feel either no one will punishment for what they believe to be wrong doings and possibly have no access to someone who can and will inflice suitable punishment upon them. From a lesser degree, when I have made a right cock up and possibly inconvenienced or even hurt someone in any way shape or form, I am my own harshest judge. I have memories when I did this to one of my ex-wives so just threw myself into some renovations, didn't bother with work gloves and hand chipped a 3'x3' hole through 5 " of concrete using a cold chisel and 8 lb hammer. I felt much better when the job was done but my hands were cut and scrapped to pieces. All I am saying is that not all self harming folks need professional care some often just need to talk with someone who can help them and put them in touch with others who also understand.

laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 10:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Sorry, but emotional masochism isn't a kink and more than self cutting is. Its dysfunction masked with a pretty name. Playing into that is like saying "but she enjoys being a battered woman" which to someone clueless is the same as saying "but she enjoys intense pain play". The fact is the two things are worlds apart. Really? Humiliation isn't a kink? You've never done anything that purposefully effects someone's mental state as well as their physical? For example, eye contact restrictions? You've never done that? That's not kink?

SimplyMichael -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 10:17:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Sorry, but emotional masochism isn't a kink and more than self cutting is. Its dysfunction masked with a pretty name. Playing into that is like saying "but she enjoys being a battered woman" which to someone clueless is the same as saying "but she enjoys intense pain play". The fact is the two things are worlds apart. Really? Humiliation isn't a kink? You've never done anything that purposefully effects someone's mental state as well as their physical? For example, eye contact restrictions? You've never done that? That's not kink? quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Sorry, but emotional masochism isn't a kink and more than self cutting is. Its dysfunction masked with a pretty name. Playing into that is like saying "but she enjoys being a battered woman" which to someone clueless is the same as saying "but she enjoys intense pain play". The fact is the two things are worlds apart. In my opinion, humiliation play is the most dangerous sort of play "we" engage in and causes far more damage than any other. Plenty equate "domineering" with "emotional masochism" which is like equating "abuse" with "hot kinky pain play". One is abusive and undermining, the other is hot and fun. I dislike the term "emotional masochism" because people like "princess" cling to it as a kink when it fact any sane person sees it as insanity. Conceptually, it is easy to grasp the difference but pinning it down to specifics will get you bogged down in semantics and the fact that two people on the planet find it a healthy dynamic. As for humiliation play, other than violating hard limits, it is one of my favorite kinks.

laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 10:25:57 AM)
That's nice Michael that you can tell me what I meant by using that term. Do you read fortunes too? The simple fact is many things encompassed in BDSM that are common are designed to invoke emotional masochism as well as physical. But if it works for you to sit in your glass house and throw stones, then go for it. Bantering around the word "abuse" isn't necessary or even applicable.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 6:58:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 That's nice Michael that you can tell me what I meant by using that term. Do you read fortunes too? The simple fact is many things encompassed in BDSM that are common are designed to invoke emotional masochism as well as physical. But if it works for you to sit in your glass house and throw stones, then go for it. Bantering around the word "abuse" isn't necessary or even applicable. I don't know what crawled up your ass and died but you didn't have a problem mind reading my post into whatever you wanted to throw a tantrum about so don't whine when I read into yours. You want to date assholes who abuse you and call it kink, be my guest, just don't expect me to put a flower in it and pretend along with you.

Jeffff -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 7:01:35 PM)
What about people who want to date some one who will beat there ass? How many folks call that kink..... or abuse?

laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 7:02:40 PM)
Again, your personal attacks are typical, but not necessarily the issue or really relevant to the point I was making. So much for personal growth eh?

laurell3 -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 7:04:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff What about people who want to date some one who will beat there ass? How many folks call that kink..... or abuse? shhh you're just an abusive asshole....

BitaTruble -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 7:40:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine So once you have a self professed masochist, I really question whether or not they care what type of pain it is. They may care intellectually, but on a gut response level... pain is pain. Speaking as a self-professed masochist, they really are two different kinds of pain. Outside, superficial & fleeting really can't be compared to internal & long-lasting scar type of pain. The one may be sought to alleviate the other so perhaps be confused. Emotional masochism.. IE - watching a movie in which the lead character dies. I know it's going to happen, that I will be sad, cry and that my heart will hurt yet will watch the film even so. Superficial, fleeting.. appears to be internally driven since it deals with emotions but coming from a place of fiction, not based on my own past or reality so I don't have a heavy investment in that sort of emotional masochism and can use it for entertainment or, perhaps, I just need a good cry. It's still pain but not at all like the pain that something from my past may have caused (even if I have moved beyond it). It doesn't touch upon my depth or core, it doesn't effect my progressive well-being nor prevent me from enjoying myself even just a few minutes after it ends. That inside stuff, that may be long-lasting, may have left scar tissue behind.. you're just not the same after that. It becomes part of you, your history, your life and you don't get to pause the DVD or turn it off and put something else on later. I would take a pass on experiencing that sort of pain in the future. Beat my ass into hamburger meat. You bet. Cry over a favorite character dying in a book or movie. Sure, that too. Go back to a place that stunts me, prevents progress and growth, takes me into a blackness the most powerful flashlight can't penetrate? No thanks. Nope.. not the same at all.

sweetgirlserves -> RE: Unintended and Undeserved Consequences (6/26/2010 7:48:41 PM)
I think of emotional masochism as a person who is always very hard on themself. They will always find a way to blame themself for something, they will bear the responsibility alone for the break up of a relationship (as an example), they are often very harsh on themself in terms of how they judge themself. What they need is to learn a means to deal with this is the short-term (ex. dealing with guilt, anger at themselves, etc) and to some extent, they may need a dominant partner to inflict some sort of 'pain punishment' as a means to help them deal with the overwhelming emotions. But what they also need is someone to help them see themself more objectively, to help them learn to give themself a break and not be so harsh on themself. Oftentimes, these people need to learn how to hold others accountable too, so they don't always take all responsilbility onto their own shoulders all of the time. ~sgs

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