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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 7:17:23 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
The italicized portions is self-contradictory...


That is true.  I missed that.

the.dark.

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 7:25:32 AM   
LanceHughes


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When it comes to the lineage of modern day people, I always wonder why the general answer is to go to Adam and Eve and the obvious loop-holes and contradictions - some involving incest, some not.

We have a MUCH stronger common lineage point in the Noah and the Ark story.  There's a solution to incest for you, plain and simple.

Genisis 7; 7: And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

King James Version (stolen from a hotel room to make the Gideons spend more money to replace it.) 

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 7:36:41 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As DarkSteven suggests, the best source for a discussion about this is Talmudic scholarship. This is something that experts on the Jewish religion (I think there's a term for a religious scholar who isn't a Rabbi, though I can't remember it offhand) have been considering in great depth for centuries. It's a very interesting field, and I'm sure you'd enjoy reading around it if you make the effort.


Actually, NOT true.... the best source is the Bible itself, and I quote:

Gen. 6;4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came into unto the daughters of men, and they bare children unto them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So, I guess God had more sons than the most well known one, namely Jesus Christ, right?  Maybe this refers to angels, so as to not denigrate the "only son" position of JC?  You get it ON, Gabriel!

ETA:  You want to know what the Bible says?  Ask your friendly neighborhood Atheist.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/25/2010 7:39:42 AM >


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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 7:50:20 AM   
LanceHughes


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Dug a little deeper.  But before the "reveal," let me just say,

Why do you think the compilers of the Bible would make such a glaring error?  Let me assure you, there's many closed loop-holes.  So many, as a matter of fact that there are lists of the contradictions in the Bible.  "Better to cover our asses both ways than leave a loop-hole floating about."

Reveal: Genesis, Chapter 5 starts "This is the book of the generations of Adam......" /Lance is tired of typing/

Go read it for yourself.  AND when Lance started to type Chapter 5 , Lance remembered (for Christians) it is important that Jesus is directly descended from Adam.  Well, guess what?  There are two genealogies of  JC that differ in myriad places.  The compilers couldn't even get the number of generations to agree, much less all the names.  Sure, there are lots of similarities...... but we're talking about the simple fact the two have differences.

Here the two are listed with quite a bit of apologetic commentary, but listed nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

If the Bible is to be taken literally, apologetics are of no use.  Why would the literal word of Gawd be one thing and then different.  Did gawd forget to tell Matthew and Luke the same thing?

OOooops... Lance fell into snarkiness there for a moment.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/25/2010 8:06:35 AM >


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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 7:54:09 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As DarkSteven suggests, the best source for a discussion about this is Talmudic scholarship. This is something that experts on the Jewish religion (I think there's a term for a religious scholar who isn't a Rabbi, though I can't remember it offhand) have been considering in great depth for centuries. It's a very interesting field, and I'm sure you'd enjoy reading around it if you make the effort.


Actually, NOT true.... the best source is the Bible itself, and I quote:

Gen. 6;4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came into unto the daughters of men, and they bare children unto them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So, I guess God had more sons than the most well known one, namely Jesus Christ, right?  Maybe this refers to angels, so as to not denigrate the "only son" position of JC?  You get it ON, Gabriel!

ETA:  You want to know what the Bible says?  Ask your friendly neighborhood Atheist.

Fair point. Isn't that the Nephilim, or the Grigori, or whatever they're called, rather than another group of human beings, though?

And sure, there's a lot to work on in Genesis, but there's a lot more in the Jewish commentaries and debate. I should have been more clear about what I meant.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 6/25/2010 7:55:37 AM >


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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 8:22:47 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Per my recollection, my father told me that G-d created the world's population so that Cain would have people to be shamed by. In other words, they did not spring directly from Adam and Eve.


DS, you mean it is all about Cain? I am stunned. I thought it was All About Eve with Bette Davis.


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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 8:27:05 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I really don't want to get into a discussion about religion as it leads absolutely nowhere.

The Old Testament isn't Christian. 

The Bible doesn't discuss a lot of things because it wasn't written as a science book or as the answer to all questions.  Moses wrote 5 books (or at least was attributed to Moses).  The purpose of these books was to give a sense of history and community to a group of runaway slaves.  The books don't discuss how other people came to be, it just provides a story that links those slaves as direct decendent of their god.  The Japanese have a similar story.  It's pretty powerful stuff to think you are decended from Diety.  A self-esteem booster to folks who had been less than human to their owners for hundreds of years.

Keep in mind that the books were supposedly written during the exodus.  That's where it begins.  Genesis is like a "flashback" scene in a movie or think of it as the "prequel" to the rest.



Aw, eyes... does it have to lead anywhere? Can't we just have a little fun?

Gotta wonder about this whole exodus of slaves thing. I have read there is no archeological evidence from the Egyptian digs to support the story. Is that true?

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 8:28:23 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Genomics may give you the answer. The information must still be inside the code of your DNA. So start working on it. 


Doesn't the genome lead us out of Africa?

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 8:45:43 AM   
RCdc


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All about Eve?
Out of Africa?

Have you been raiding the film shelf again vinnie?

the.dark.

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 9:26:21 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

Genisis 7; 7: And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood


I'll go with the reasoning that the flood wasn't world wide, not even necessarily countrywide.  Too many interpretations of the word they use end up being 'earth' when it's more likely to be 'land'(in particular flat) or 'country'(as in the area you live)

.
quote:

Gen. 6;4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came into unto the daughters of men, and they bare children unto them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So, I guess God had more sons than the most well known one, namely Jesus Christ, right?  Maybe this refers to angels, so as to not denigrate the "only son" position of JC?  You get it ON, Gabriel!


Giants could be in reference to anything, from their height or weight or even their social standing.  Even in the modern world, different ethnic groups have genetic predispositions to certain traits.
Angels aren't restricted to gender(or human form) but they are sexy or at least attractive (so the bible says).

the.dark.

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 12:48:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

All about Eve?
Out of Africa?

Have you been raiding the film shelf again vinnie?

the.dark.


Oh dark, you caught me. The first was intentional, the second dumb luck.

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RE: Creation ? - 6/25/2010 12:56:56 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I really don't want to get into a discussion about religion as it leads absolutely nowhere.

The Old Testament isn't Christian. 

The Bible doesn't discuss a lot of things because it wasn't written as a science book or as the answer to all questions.  Moses wrote 5 books (or at least was attributed to Moses).  The purpose of these books was to give a sense of history and community to a group of runaway slaves.  The books don't discuss how other people came to be, it just provides a story that links those slaves as direct decendent of their god.  The Japanese have a similar story.  It's pretty powerful stuff to think you are decended from Diety.  A self-esteem booster to folks who had been less than human to their owners for hundreds of years.

Keep in mind that the books were supposedly written during the exodus.  That's where it begins.  Genesis is like a "flashback" scene in a movie or think of it as the "prequel" to the rest.



Aw, eyes... does it have to lead anywhere? Can't we just have a little fun?

Gotta wonder about this whole exodus of slaves thing. I have read there is no archeological evidence from the Egyptian digs to support the story. Is that true?

There is no independent evidence for the Exodus story or anything before the reign of one of the later hebrew kings (Ahab or Omri IIRC).

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