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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/27/2010 7:59:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


through a proper election.



LMAO!


Well, if you don't count the attempt of our CIA to fix it.


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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/27/2010 8:05:38 PM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I also hate all of these labels. African-Americans should also not be used. They are Americans.


Yeh, now they are Americans. And now you protest the hyphen. Was a time when more despicable labels were used for blacks, jews, latinos, italians, etc. So, just too bad for you that you can't accept a bit of cultural pride.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/27/2010 9:58:40 PM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		When I see all other ethnicities in the United States announcing themselves as Euro-American, German-American, Italian-American, Afganistani-American, ect, I might understand cultural pride better. Until then, in my experience it has only served to limit me. I am American, plain and simple. That is where my pride lives, breathes and is not defined by color.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/27/2010 11:32:58 PM   
Nineveh


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Status: offline 		Don't forget Chicano  (usually the preferred term by the more radically politicized latinos such as Ceasar Chavez)

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/27/2010 11:38:35 PM   
Nineveh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I also hate all of these labels. African-Americans should also not be used. They are Americans.


I have a friend who is African-American.  He's also White.  He emigrated here from Africa.  That's the proper use of the term.  Using it for a Black American is inaccurate. (mind you, most African-Americans are Black, because most Africans are Black, but that's not my point)

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/28/2010 4:23:03 AM   
mefisto69


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Status: offline 		@ VincentML..... yes indeed. Las Casas recorded the living history and the Catholic Church kept it under lock and key for a Very long time. True also that there were many priests with social conscience however, their good works were always punished. Rome actually pulled all the Jesuits out of Latin America for their insistence on educating the masses while at the same times, Rome's official doctrine was that: the 'people' should accept their fate and trust in God. Las Casas blames the "Spaniards". He's Not referring to the Spanish monarchs. Yes, they expected their tribute but - it was those thieving bastards that were left to run the colonies that devestated the people and raped the lands. They became immensely wealthy and sent only a fraction back to Spain.
Yes, the Catholic church jumped on the bandwagon too - two faced scum that they are. They also grabbed land and wealth. We can say that Spain was incompetent in running the New World quite easily because there was no direct control - and there was no precedent for controlling an empire from such a long distance. Travel was limited to only a few trans-atlantic trips a year and documentation was always fraudulent. Cristobal Colon was betrayed by these same colonial rulers because he tried to stop some of the destruction. He ended up in chains and prison for his efforts.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/28/2010 4:57:05 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I also hate all of these labels. African-Americans should also not be used. They are Americans.


I have a friend who is African-American.  He's also White.  He emigrated here from Africa.  That's the proper use of the term.  Using it for a Black American is inaccurate. (mind you, most African-Americans are Black, because most Africans are Black, but that's not my point)


Zaire? I know they've been encouraging white farmers to leave the country pretty heavily for the last decade or so.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/28/2010 7:07:34 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

When I see all other ethnicities in the United States announcing themselves as Euro-American, German-American, Italian-American, Afganistani-American, ect, I might understand cultural pride better. Until then, in my experience it has only served to limit me. I am American, plain and simple. That is where my pride lives, breathes and is not defined by color.


Well, I don't know where you have been and what your exposure has been. Mine was as an urban school teacher. I can offer my experience that ethnic pride was salient.

I ask you without hostile intent, what is American, plain and simple? To me it is a patchwork of immigrant cultures who share a common language and similar ideals but reject homogeneity.

And to you..... ?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/28/2010 8:51:07 AM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		In urban areas you might have a greater mix of various ethnicities. I grew up in the suburbs of southern ca, in a predominantly wasp town where "latino's" literally lived on the other side of the tracks. On that side there was a lot of that latino pride stuff going on.. it was the time where Black Power was strong and other groups were trying to capture the same momentum. But on my side.. the white side, survival meant adapting. There are moments that stand out for me... being told by my friends that they liked me, and that I was not like "THOSE" mexicans from the barrios.. and at the time I had no concept of what the heck a barrio was, I just knew they saw me differently. Or, having guys invite me out but not take me to meet their family. Or, educators forcing me to take those ethnic classes that supposedly were there to assist me to learn. Learn what? I read 1000 mpm. I have a 95% comprehension. I felt like I was stagnating in those classes and spent most of my time drawing to relieve the boredom. That actually turned out well for me and led to an art scholarship when I was 13.
I surfed. I grew up in a beach culture where being blond and blue-eyed was the norm and tanned skin was acceptable in the summer months. Mine was year round. Prejudice was from both sides of the tracks. The side where I grew up and was not considered a threat because I was not like those others... and on the other side where my cousins lived and they saw me as an Oreo, both dark and light.
How do I see American? The way I grew up it was as being part of the society I am living in without having to tag myself with a color, or language or anything else that would tell people I am somehow different. In the majority there is no need to define. Oddly enough my culture is now becoming the majority. I suspect I will not fit in.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 12:23:28 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

In urban areas you might have a greater mix of various ethnicities. I grew up in the suburbs of southern ca, in a predominantly wasp town where "latino's" literally lived on the other side of the tracks. On that side there was a lot of that latino pride stuff going on.. it was the time where Black Power was strong and other groups were trying to capture the same momentum. But on my side.. the white side, survival meant adapting. There are moments that stand out for me... being told by my friends that they liked me, and that I was not like "THOSE" mexicans from the barrios.. and at the time I had no concept of what the heck a barrio was, I just knew they saw me differently. Or, having guys invite me out but not take me to meet their family. Or, educators forcing me to take those ethnic classes that supposedly were there to assist me to learn. Learn what? I read 1000 mpm. I have a 95% comprehension. I felt like I was stagnating in those classes and spent most of my time drawing to relieve the boredom. That actually turned out well for me and led to an art scholarship when I was 13.
I surfed. I grew up in a beach culture where being blond and blue-eyed was the norm and tanned skin was acceptable in the summer months. Mine was year round. Prejudice was from both sides of the tracks. The side where I grew up and was not considered a threat because I was not like those others... and on the other side where my cousins lived and they saw me as an Oreo, both dark and light.
How do I see American? The way I grew up it was as being part of the society I am living in without having to tag myself with a color, or language or anything else that would tell people I am somehow different. In the majority there is no need to define. Oddly enough my culture is now becoming the majority. I suspect I will not fit in.



First and foremost I wanted to be sure you knew that your reply did not go unread. I would not wish to be so rude to you. I had somewhat similar experiences when I was a kid. The German/Methodist boys directly across the street were not permitted to play with the new Italian/Catholic boy.

Secondly, I think I see in young people a great deal of acceptance of other cultures today and that someday in the near future we will be past the type of insults you suffered. I believe that is the benefit of cultural pride. Everybody does not have to be whitebread and mayonnese American to be accepted.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 1:00:11 PM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		I am always going to see that differently. For me, being different is a barrier. People in power or those that hold the majority rule, never have to identify themselves by culture. When I see that happening I will feel at home.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 1:17:15 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Secondly, I think I see in young people a great deal of acceptance of other cultures today and that someday in the near future we will be past the type of insults you suffered. I believe that is the benefit of cultural pride. Everybody does not have to be whitebread and mayonnese American to be accepted.


No it doesn't need to be "whitebread" to be American. Cultural pride is one thing. However, when you come to this country and choose to live here and become a citizen, your loyalty should be to THIS country, therefore, you should wave your AMERICAN flag with pride. The term "African American" is not about cultural pride. It serves to continue to promote separatism. Most people who refer to themselves as "African Americans" also think that their ancestors come from the "country" of Africa and don't even realize it is a continent.

The point that Missokyst is trying to make is that she prefers to identify herself as just an American. Your culture comes from your ethnicity, but your citizenship is about where you are from.

As for me, since I'm of Italian decent, and Italy is one of the original "latin" countries, I think I might start referring to myself as "Latino." After all, I'm only second generation to this country where the ancestors of others who want to be so separately defined have lived in this country for more than a century in most cases. Then add to that the the Haitians are not African Americans, neither are those from Trinidad or Tobago. Those particular citizens resent not having any option other than "African American."

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 2:12:36 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

No it doesn't need to be "whitebread" to be American. Cultural pride is one thing. However, when you come to this country and choose to live here and become a citizen, your loyalty should be to THIS country, therefore, you should wave your AMERICAN flag with pride.


I never suggested cultural pride and patrotism were mutually exclusive. Wonder where you came up with that.

quote:

The term "African American" is not about cultural pride. It serves to continue to promote separatism.


Blacks were seperated by virtue of Jim Crow laws.

quote:

Most people who refer to themselves as "African Americans" also think that their ancestors come from the "country" of Africa and don't even realize it is a continent.


Is this your testament to the education level of Most African-Americans ??

quote:

The point that Missokyst is trying to make is that she prefers to identify herself as just an American. Your culture comes from your ethnicity, but your citizenship is about where you are from.


I never said otherwise. You are having a fine debate with yourself.

quote:

As for me, since I'm of Italian decent, and Italy is one of the original "latin" countries, I think I might start referring to myself as "Latino."


"Latino" is the diminutive of "Latin America." It has nothing whatsoever to do with the dead language chanted only by the Church.

quote:

After all, I'm only second generation to this country where the ancestors of others who want to be so separately defined have lived in this country for more than a century in most cases. Then add to that the the Haitians are not African Americans, neither are those from Trinidad or Tobago. Those particular citizens resent not having any option other than "African American."


I have never heard such resentment expressed in south florida where we have a large Hatian community who seem happy to refer to themselves as Hatian-Americans.

Additionally, as Italian-Americans you and I are both aware that Italian-American clubs and organizations are quite common.

There is something you are missing here which I would like to point out so you so not think I am a completely hostile ass-hole.

Cultural Pride and cultural organizations have always played a very important role in the progression of immigrant groups toward full assimilation within the American family. Asian-Americans have long banned together to provide financial support to families with new businesses. Jewish-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Irish-Americans provided netwroking and group support as immigration occurred in the face of particularly hostile nativist populations. My family comes from a tiny Sicillian village called Canicatti, in the Provence of Agrigento. Well, the whole damn villiage must have migrated because a fraternal society was established in NYC to lend assistance to new arrivals... and it is still active today promoting the village. I would like you to understand that in a nation of immigrants the cohesion within cultural groups has played a very important if little reported role that has in fact promoted pride in citizenship and patriotism, contrary to your premise.

Have a good day, Paesana.


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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 2:46:33 PM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		Right LL. Heck, my people were on this continent in this area long before it became property of the USA. For generations we had been set back for reasons of color, whether or not one eats taco's, or because of language which should never have been an issue, but it was. I adopted my culture and I will die with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The point that Missokyst is trying to make is that she prefers to identify herself as just an American. Your culture comes from your ethnicity, but your citizenship is about where you are from.



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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 7:13:45 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		FR:
In mexico there is a distinct social stratification.
If two spaniards had a child in mexico the child was a mexican...(many spaniards went back to spain to have their children in the period of the spanish occupation of mexico so that the child would be spanish and not mexican.
If a spaniard or a mexican had a child with an indian that child was a mestizo.
Then of course there are the indians of mexico who are still hunted for sport in some parts of chiapas.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/29/2010 7:14:52 PM >

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 8:15:17 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Status: offline 		So I am curious, why do you support and in fact demand the United States allow, the elite European Spaniards who run Mexico to ethnically cleanse the Mexicain population by forcing the Mestizo-Indian populations across the American Border?

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 6/29/2010 8:17:57 PM >

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 8:32:54 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

So I am curious, why do you support and in fact demand the United States allow, the elite European Spaniards who run Mexico to ethnically cleanse the Mexicain population by forcing the Mestizo-Indian populations across the American Border?


Please show me where I have ever suggested such a thing?
I have consistantly said that the government ought to enforce the laws against employing illegal aliens.
Do you only open your mouth to change feet?

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/29/2010 10:32:20 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Status: offline 		Oh... so let me get this straight, while the elitist European Spainards are ethnically cleansing their population of Mestizo-Indians by pushing them across the US Border, your solution is not to stop the elitist European Spainards running the Mexican Goventment from doing it in the first place but to deny those same Mestizo-Indians who were forced from their own country and often families, jobs.

Way to look out for the common man!

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/30/2010 6:16:34 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I am always going to see that differently. For me, being different is a barrier. People in power or those that hold the majority rule, never have to identify themselves by culture. When I see that happening I will feel at home.


I don't mean to be unkind here but i find your pov troubling so I would ask you for some clarification. First, let's put aside the misdirection suggested by LL that group cultural pride somehow excludes patriotism. That is an unwarrented confusion.

I wonder if I am correctly reading your comment that "being different is a barrier" when I perceive you to be saying you are willing to reject your ethnic heritage and identity as an accommodation to the prevailing power structure?

Additionally, do you not see that most people of color do not have that luxury and so have no choice but to embrace their ethnicity with pride?

Finally, I wonder what your reaction would be to this hypothesis of mine: The traditional western european power structure that long dominated our Federal and local politics, entertainment, news media, and sporting scene has been eroding away since the 1960s (think civil rights, anti-vietnam, feminists, black power, say it loud say it proud, rock and roll, etc) and the current flare up of the tea party movement is a rear guard action in that cultural war. "Those that hold the majority view" as you put it are in the process of yielding to a new majority. Would welcome your thoughts.

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RE: What the heck IS a Latino/Hispanic? - 6/30/2010 8:15:38 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Oh... so let me get this straight, while the elitist European Spainards are ethnically cleansing their population of Mestizo-Indians by pushing them across the US Border,


Is it your position that the mexican government is herding people across the u.s./mexican boarder by force?


your solution is not to stop the elitist European Spainards running the Mexican Goventment from doing it in the first place but to deny those same Mestizo-Indians who were forced from their own country and often families, jobs.

My solution to illegal immigration is to enforce the federal law against employng illegal aliens.

Way to look out for the common man!

It seems that you are all in favor of illegal immigration...way to be a law abiding citizen


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