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RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 12:35:34 PM

NorthernGent

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My view is that the majority want to work.....but anyone agreeing with this has to ask themselves why they don't take advantage of the same opportunities afforded to all of us....

Regardless.....1 in 7 people in Birmingham are on benefits.....that is simply unsustainable....so whether people want to work or not we have no option but to force them to work.......and if it means cleaning the streets then that is the way it has to be....and if nothing else it will reengage people with the spirit of work and hopefully lead to better things......we've tried the softly...softly approach...something which in the main I agreed with.......but the results speak for themselves.....it hasn't worked.....if we don't get a grip on this then we're in trouble....time to put idealism to one side and deal with the reality that 1 in 7 people on benefits is unsustainable and will ruin the country where it carries on.....

And as Dark said....opt out by all means.....but don't expect a hand out....we can't afford it.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 41

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 12:47:39 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Think about it like this why should a person with a degree accept a job that a sixteen year old might take for a summer job? why accept a job with shit pay and shit conditions, i know because i have heard how they treat their staff and its not good, minimum wage and worked very hard, why should i do that when i and others like me know we can do better. do we live in a democracy or not if we do i am entitled as a citizen to refuse to work or accept work in Mc Donalds
kevin

Why don't you think of it like this:

Democracy is a political philosphy.....it's not the goal.....it's a tool to achieve the goal....

The goal is social cohesion.....

So by all means you exercise your freedom to choose.....

And others will exercise their freedom to choose not to give you any money in the interests of social cohesion.....put simply we can't afford to feed you.....either further your education so you don't have to work in McDonalds....or work in McDonalds...there isn't a third option........in the interests of social cohesion which trumps your democracy line.....because the Indians and Chinese are developing their knowledge base at a rate of knots....and we need to keep pace to compete...and having such a large proportion of people on benefits significantly hinders this by acting as a drain on the economy.....and our value creating capabilities will suffer and then far more than 1 in 7 will be well and truly fucked and social cohesion will be out the window....

Do you know there are African blokes who come over here and are educating themselves into the ground....getting about 3 hours sleep a night working during the day and studying at night as they are desperate to take advantage of the opportunities here? Afraid we can't afford such a large group of people contributing nothing to the economy anymore....so you need to have a chat with some of these African blokes.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to lobodomslavery)

Post #: 42

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 12:51:38 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

As many who have already said elsewhere, what is the point of working in a low paid job when the benefits are only a few pounds less.

Quite simply....it keeps you in the spirit of work....and should incentivise you to go on to better things.....

Where money is your motivating factor....then the answer is to take the money away from you.....simple.....

The elderly and the genuinely unfit to work should be cared for.....everyone else needs forcing into work......whatever the work....don't like it? then stop posting on a message board so often and get your head in a few books instead.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 43

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 12:55:13 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

and our value creating capabilities will suffer and then far more than 1 in 7 will be well and truly fucked and social cohesion will be out the window....

Are there jobs for every person that is 1 in 7? It is easy to say everyone needs to get of their ass and work, but if there are no jobs (even low paying ones) for them to take, it is really a meatless statement that they need to be working....

The only work I could find at this point in my life is odd jobs.... and I use my skills to do those odd jobs, such as refinishing furniture, etc

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 44

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 1:01:57 PM

jennileigh8182

Posts: 173
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline

NorthernGent,

I just fell in love with you. *lol*

juliaoceania,

I don't know your area, but I can say this: I live in Michigan, one of the areas where people say it's next to impossible to get a job, but you know what? I left a job last summer, had a new one within 3 weeks. It was a temporary gig, but when it ended this spring, I had a new one within LESS than a week. And, for the record, these are jobs that anyone off the street could walk in and do with a little effort. They're significantly above minimum wage, too. The temporary job was a shit one, one I absolutely hated doing and would do anything to avoid in the future, but.....it was work.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 45

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 1:04:38 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Are there jobs for every person that is 1 in 7? It is easy to say everyone needs to get of their ass and work, but if there are no jobs (even low paying ones) for them to take, it is really a meatless statement that they need to be working....

The only work I could find at this point in my life is odd jobs.... and I use my skills to do those odd jobs, such as refinishing furniture, etc

Then that's what it has to be......if you're fit to work then get out there and feed yourself...and if it means doing 'odd jobs'....then tough....I'm not sure people grasp the seriousness of the current economic situation....and the 1 in 7 will drag some of the rest of us down if we let it continue.....

I have two Italian friends from Naples....one cleaning....one working for LateRooms doing admin work....they have no problem with it and managed to find work not long after stepping off the plane....of course they'd like to be Financial Directors on £200k+ a week.....but they appeciate that the reality is they don't have the skills/knowledge/experience for that and they hope to work their way away from cleaning and admin work.....that's what those fit for work and on benefits are going to have to do....the reason we have so many Poles over here is because they're doing the work that others wouldn't do....the work those on benefits could have done.......so that's the answer...do some cleaning and admin work...and in your spare time obtain some skills that will help you move into a job you really want....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 46

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 1:11:48 PM

NorthernGent

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Oh and just to add.....

The real shame with all of this....is that the government are going to find it difficult to make sure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip....and what we most certainly will have is some people being forced to work who really are unfit for work....and that's a crying shame....and partly due to those who are fit to work refusing cleaning work and admin work because they think they're above that but actually they don't have the skills nor the work ethic to deserve their self-proclaimed right to a certain job......

Make no mistake....the economic reality is that people will be forced to work....so best do something about it now or otherwise you may be forced to clean toilets and then suddenly that McDonalds job would seem appealing.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 47

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 1:23:38 PM

pyroaquatic

Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline

The man who bows finds all of life's little treasures.

Who benefits from these benefits?

The Government, Rich Elite, and Back Steppers. Sure you are K.O.'ed but you are also willing to stand and place energy into enhancing your essence. Back Steppers need a Strong Back lest (s)he crumbles under the weight. Otherwise they would have to do work and get dirty. Does a politician EVER get dirty?

Wonder how much TRASH walmart produces. Many backs are moving cheap plastic, sawdust and glue, from the manufacturing plant to the landfills/recycling centers.

The political system seems to remove the public from decisions unless you know how to jump through red tape.

I would like a drove of poor at their door but I cannot ask any more. They are doing it all. Sometimes you have to face the repercussions of grand magnitudes.

The subject is sore but the solution beats having A DROVE OF POOR HUNGRY AND HOMELESS PEOPLE POUNDING DOWN DOORS.

There is so much power locked within the horde. It just needs fluid organization. There is a huge benefit for a nation wide cause with people standing together.

BackSteppers = benefit scroungers no matter what the bank statement may say. 20 percent.
Backs=The Employed who does most of the work. 80 percent.

There is some Pareto for you.

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to lobodomslavery)

Post #: 48

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 1:30:30 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jennileigh8182

NorthernGent,

I just fell in love with you. *lol*

juliaoceania,

I don't know your area, but I can say this: I live in Michigan, one of the areas where people say it's next to impossible to get a job, but you know what? I left a job last summer, had a new one within 3 weeks. It was a temporary gig, but when it ended this spring, I had a new one within LESS than a week. And, for the record, these are jobs that anyone off the street could walk in and do with a little effort. They're significantly above minimum wage, too. The temporary job was a shit one, one I absolutely hated doing and would do anything to avoid in the future, but.....it was work.

What you are failing to understand is that there are people with mental issues, physical issues, educational issues (lack of a diploma, learning disabilities, illiteracy)... and these people can't take just any job. These people aren't qualified for most jobs. Your assertion that you are able to do it, so everyone else should do it too, well that doesn't fly with my life experience. I have done what you are doing, and it took some motivation on my part. It wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination... but I also came from a literate family, my parents modeled work for me, I was able bodied, and I had no mental health issues that got in my way...

When you take a job because you are qualified, well that job didn't go to someone else that was less so.... sooner or later, you get down the food chain and there are people who are not going to get that job...

I had a job interview recently. They only interviewed college grads. It was a job that required several skills I possess. They asked me what I was prepared to work for, I thought I was lowballing my pay scale... I said "at least 12 an hour".... they only wanted to pay minimum wage. This job had no bennies... It was the same story all over the place. Now I live in a coastal city in California... one cannot live on 12 an hour, much less min wage...

Another factor is age. People who are older, better established, are being passed up for employment in favor of young people. They do not have to pay you as much as they would have to pay me... I have two degrees, I have work experience, and I am head of household with the skills of a mature person...I do not know if you are aware that men comprise more of the unemployed than women, this is because women make less per hour. So the fact that they were willing to hire you over your over qualified, male applicants... or your illiterate counterparts... well that just isn't that surprising to me

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jennileigh8182)

Post #: 49

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 1:50:22 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Then that's what it has to be......if you're fit to work then get out there and feed yourself...and if it means doing 'odd jobs'....then tough....I'm not sure people grasp the seriousness of the current economic situation....and the 1 in 7 will drag some of the rest of us down if we let it continue.....

You used to be so much more understanding of the plight of those who could not find work... what happened? I mean it is like someone invaded your body and is posting in your stead.... I can find many examples of wooly liberalism from you...

I suppose you do not subscribe to the notion that when government spends money it stimulates the economy?

And btw, I am not complaining...so why you are telling me "tough" is really beyond me... when I said this in relationship to the odd jobs I am doing to get through grad school

quote:

I am soooo thankful that there are people who care about me enough to let me work for them to make a few bucks to get through my program.... it is not beneath me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 50

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:04:02 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You used to be so much more understanding of the plight of those who could not find work... what happened? I mean it is like someone invaded your body and is posting in your stead.... I can find many examples of wooly liberalism from you...

As I said above.....I agreed with the approach to welfare provision......but the current situation is this: 1 in 7 people are on benefits in England's 2nd largest city. It is unsustainable....and that view has little to do with political persuasion....it is an economic reality at this point in time....and one that simply can't be allowed to continue where we value Britain's competitiveness.....not liberal nor conservative...but rather.....obvious...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I suppose you do not subscribe to the notion that when government spends money it stimulates the economy?

Julia.....money stimulates the economy where it generates a return on investment.....

Now investment in infrastructure...communications etc....does indeed 'stimulate the economy'......

But giving money to people who are not putting anything back into the coffers as they are stagnating on long terms benefits.....is not stimulating the economy......it is a drain which will drag others down too.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 51

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:10:36 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

but the current situation is this: 1 in 7 people are on benefits in England's 2nd largest city. It is unsustainable.

So if there are no jobs, do these people just starve, live in the streets? The UK lacks colonies to send you all off to, and debtor's prisons I believe are a thing of the past. The lessons of Charles Dickens seems to apply here.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 52

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:14:15 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

but the current situation is this: 1 in 7 people are on benefits in England's 2nd largest city. It is unsustainable.

So if there are no jobs, do these people just starve, live in the streets? The UK lacks colonies to send you all off to, and debtor's prisons I believe are a thing of the past. The lessons of Charles Dickens seems to apply here.

We could go round in circles here Julia....so for the last time....there are jobs....it's the reason we have so many Poles over here.....and why people such as my friends from Naples can find jobs not long after stepping off the plane....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 53

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:16:26 PM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Where are you getting 1 in 7 from NG? Sure I recall it being mentioned as 1 in 5 people of working age on benefits (roughly half as unemployment claimants and the other half as incapacity claimants. Are you including retirees in 1 in 7? Retirees being of course the timebomb in all this as the boomers lucky enough to have jobs start retiring.

I'm also sure I recall that another 1 in 5 of working age work directly for government bodies; that leaves 3 private sector workers supporting 2 others of working age, or (if your 1 in 7 includes retirees) 3 private sector workers supporting 4 others.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 54

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:19:31 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

We could go round in circles here Julia....so for the last time....there are jobs....it's the reason we have so many Poles over here.....and why people such as my friends from Naples can find jobs not long after stepping off the plane....

Have you thought that the reason they hire people off the boat is because they can get away with paying them less? Why is your government allowing these people in and driving down the wage?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 55

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:21:07 PM

Louve00

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I think everyone's pretty much offered all kinds of reasons or situations that I could agree with on this subject. While I do believe some are embarrassed about receiving assistance, I think RCdc summed it up best when he said there is no room for pride (of that sort) when you've got mouths to feed and people depending on you. No need in crying over it. It is what it is.

And I do believe others live off the system because they are indeed too damn lazy to pick their ass up and get it into the work force. If thats the case they hold themselves in a slavery that will keep them down for as long as they submit to that way of life. That too, is what it is.

And as Julia said, some people are not in a position to be embarrassed, conning the system or anything else, other than just simply in need. Those people (I believe) are just trying to survive, not trying to thrive, as sad as that may sound. They simply need help and don't have the means to help themselves.

Lobodomslavery, you belittle McDonald's and from the depths of your belittlement, it would be my guess that you take one look at a person in a McDonald's uniform and you feel a sense of betterment over them, despite you may be unemployed because you would never lower yourself to that kind of employment. But while you may be pitying those people...or even loathing them, but certainly having no respect for them, have you ever stopped to consider that McDonalds is a franchise. And one of those people in those McDonald's uniforms is a business owner, with people below him (a chain of command, down to those 16 yr old employees) that helps build a resume and give you the experience you lack. Would you still feel superior to that business owner? I'm not telling you you should run to a bank for a loan to buy a McDonald's...just merely pointing out that not everything is what you may think it is.

As with benefits. Everything isn't always what we assume it is. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes people are happy just surviving...sometimes they need help to survive while in the process of setting themselves up to thrive. I do believe though, that we are all the captains of our own ship. Some may have to work harder to get there, but we determine whether we'll get there or not.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 56

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:39:09 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

We could go round in circles here Julia....so for the last time....there are jobs....it's the reason we have so many Poles over here.....and why people such as my friends from Naples can find jobs not long after stepping off the plane....

Have you thought that the reason they hire people off the boat is because they can get away with paying them less? Why is your government allowing these people in and driving down the wage?

Yes....though not a reason for allowing people to stagnate on long term benefits....it's a related issue granted.....but going off at a tangent all the same....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 57

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:50:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Yes....though not a reason for allowing people to stagnate on long term benefits....it's a related issue granted.....but going off at a tangent all the same....

Here is the issue, governments allowing large influx of immigrants creates what employers call "fluidity" in the labor market. "Fluidity" is a good thing for corporations because it leads to worker insecurity. When there are not enough jobs and too many workers this drives down the wage. When the wage goes down then employers get to pick and choose from more qualified employees. It lessens the ability of workers to negotiate a fair wage. This leads to jobs that could be paying a living wage to paying peanuts.

Now I suppose we can all race to the bottom of the wage barrel instead of doing what is right...

It really comes down to this, what you are really advocating is sacrificing the social net to save the capitalist system. The capitalist system is on its last leg, mainly because economies demand constant growth or they die... we may have hit the wall with global economic growth. What we really need is for people to organically avoid the labor market and find alternatives... if they drive the wage down far enough this may happen sooner rather than later. I can see where Anernin is coming from, I just disagree with his method of getting there. Opt out if you feel like it, but don't get on public assistance... make real efforts to build an alternative economy and maybe others will join you

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 58

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:52:20 PM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
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i feel sad for them actually. Because i know for a fact that they are punching wage wise well below what they deserve. i have eaten Mc Donalds food. it is extremely bad value. i prefer Burger King
kevin

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 59

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 2:54:33 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It really comes down to this, what you are really advocating is sacrificing the social net to save the capitalist system.

Seems you've drawn your conclusion.....Julia.....so that's that on the matter.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 60

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