RE: Benefit scroungers ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 5:23:06 AM)

Yes, I agree, twenty odd years of consistant employment including serving my country, I have paid in via taxes, all those national insurance amounts taken from my wage packet for we assume our pension at the end of working life. So assuming one does not die of old age before the working life expires one should be getting a pension.

But as the working retirement age for people has now been raised, could it be those that designed such a policy know full well many will not live to receive anything from what they paid in under the promise of a pension at the end.

Now, the current drive to force the unemployed into work so to cut the benefit payments, another feeder on the national insurance pot of gold.

Could it perchance be looked at as the government are actually seeking to steal our rights from us, steal the pension, and steel the benefits ?

Now, I am assuming I might not live to see my pension, because of the simple fact that no one knows what the next day, week, month or year may bring, I may not live to receive the promise, so what I am doing now is effectively using my pension to sort myself out so I may go on to work again. As I have paid in to the national insurance pot of gold, I believe I have the right to take from it for my problems now, not what may or may not happen in the future.

Sure tax payers are paying for my existence now, but when I was working I was paying for others then and yes I do admit to begrudging that, but having experienced the other side of life away from media and their headlines regarding the feckless I now understand, where I obviously did not before.

When I go back into employment, my plans are to help those like myself and of what tax I pay, I will not begrudge others for their misfortunes in life.

To me, unemployment has taught me a lot, I have learned a lot of truth about people, the people I once stayed away from for being odd, I know now they are not, but just trying to live in a system that is railed against them for being different.

But of this war government causes between the employed and the unemployed, is it we are in reality the same, because status can change in the blink of an eye, we live in an insecure society. What the government via media are doing is that age old tactic of divide and conquer to keep the eye of them and their inefficiencies.

The government of course being recruited from the ranks of the wealthy.



sirsholly -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 5:24:12 AM)

quote:

No the responsibility falls to the rich. No one needs nor deserves take home pay of over $100,000
It is not your right to determine what another needs or deserves.
quote:

the highest paid person should be paid no more than 5 times the lowest paid person.
ok...so if the minimum wage is 8.00, you are saying no one should make more than 40.00 per hour?
Ahhh, i see. Not only are you dictating what one will earn, but also what an employer can pay?


I am actually sitting here laughing...i mean out loud! According to this theory, as a therapist i can charge no more than 40.00 per hour long session.
A surgeon who preforms a 5 hour surgery has a salary cap of 200.00 for his work.
A sales rep who works on commission may actually have to return his earnings if he has a profitable day. And a car salesman will have to sell a BMW one fender at a time so he doesn't exceed ol Kevins fairness policy.



lobodomslavery -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 5:38:03 AM)

$40 is plenty for an hour session. i certainly wouldnt pay any more. i get therapy for FREE. i dont have to pay and wont. And im not the only one who thinks that the highest paid person should not be paid more than five times the lowest. its called justice. at the moment the gap between the lowest earner and the highest is too wide, it is perpetuating injustice and is causing many honest people to struggle financially. If wages werent so high at the top we would not have such high prices such high inflation and everybody wins think about it a lot of money floating around, much of it by a minority of wealthy individuals and suddenly everybody even those who cant afford have to pay ridiculously high prices for everything, a car, a house, food etc, if wages were lower prices would be lower and we would not be in the shit we are in currently. The problem we had was that everything was over valued, the economy over heated and crashed
kevin



BonesFromAsh -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 5:46:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

i get therapy for FREE. i dont have to pay and wont.

 

Just a thought....

Your therapist, do you think she/he provides that service out of the goodness of his/her heart with no thought to compensation?  Just because a person is able to get a service at a no-fee/discounted fee, it doesn't mean they aren't making it up elsewhere.  Someone is paying for your therapy.



sirsholly -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 5:58:56 AM)

quote:

$40 is plenty for an hour session. i certainly wouldnt pay any more. i get therapy for FREE. i dont have to pay and wont
You wouldn't pay MORE? Hell...you don't pay at all!!

So...who does pay for your therapy, Kevin? The government? The same government that you want the higher paid individuals to bail out?

Whereas your therapy is "free", i assure you that therapist is being paid. Now, the person that makes waaaay too high of a salary (in your opinion) does NOT have their medical bills paid for them. Sure they may have health insurance, but they pay the premiums.

Perchance i may suggest you remove your head from you ass and realize a "higher" income does not go as far as you think. You receive things at no cost that those who are employed must pay for.


EDIT...apologies for my misconception. I forgot about the NHS.



sirsholly -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 6:02:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

im not on benefit currently.




quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

i get therapy for FREE.


um...???




xxblushesxx -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 6:19:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

No the responsibility falls to the rich. No one needs nor deserves take home pay of over $100,000 the highest paid person should be paid no more than 5 times the lowest paid person. If we take it that the lowest paid person is on say $20,000, $100,000 is very fair. The problem we have in this economy is that too many folk are being over paid and not delivering, and an awful lot of folk are underpaid and undervalued
kevin



Oh bullshit. So if you write the Lobodomslavery book and it brings you over a million dollars in royalties, you will accept only 100,000? (Plus pay extra taxes on that 100,000.)

You see Kevin, we live in a society that rewards those who are creative and motivated.

What you're suggesting is those who are creative enough, motivated enough, and yes, lucky enough to succeed, is that they take care of those who are not. People need incentives to motivate them to reach higher.

When someone works hard and succeeds, that does not give the rest of society any right to the fruits of that success bar the same taxes everyone is required to remit.

I know you won't listen to this, because you do feel entitled. But you're not.



RCdc -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 6:54:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

im not on benefit currently.




quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

i get therapy for FREE.


um...???




Hey hollyxxxx
A person doesn't have to be on benefit in the UK to get 'free' therapy.  (That's the beauty of the NHS)

the.dark.



sirsholly -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 6:56:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

im not on benefit currently.




quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

i get therapy for FREE.


um...???




Hey hollyxxxx
A person doesn't have to be on benefit in the UK to get 'free' therapy.  (That's the beauty of the NHS)

the.dark.
Oops...thanks for clearing that up Dark.
Hugs to you and yours!





MissAsylum -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:06:09 AM)

i'm still trying to understand this whole "responsibility an leadership" thing that our dear Kevie is harping on. I'll put myself in your scenario. last year, through 4 jobs that i have(yes, FOUR) as a model, ProDomme, professional artist and makeup artist, all of which i started at the bottom with and worked my way to what I am now entitled to(entitled because i WORKED), i made $128,419. so because of that, i should be taxed around 20% because that would make me a leader. its my responsibility to give extra handouts of what i worked my ass off to get. is that what you are saying kevin?



jennileigh8182 -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:07:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I really hope the degree you already have and the second you are seeking isn't in accounting. Refunds are not based on your income, but on your deductions. Furthermore, since you are obviously unaware, the rich have always been taxed at a higher rate. It's called a "tax bracket."

It's nice to be young and full of ideas, but don't present your opinions as fact.

Also, unlike juliaoceana, I did take the time to look at your profile. I find it interesting that while you are talking about all this work you are putting into being able to "make a better life" for you and your son, you state in your profile how while you are able to take care of all of your own needs, you really don't want to, and that is why you seek a dominant. So really, you are passing time with a part time job, living under mommy and daddy's roof and going to school until you find a guy to take care of you.

Really when you put all that together, you come off looking like a snotty, elitist gold digger.




It's ok that you don't read very well. You obviously missed the sentence in my profile that says I'm not looking for financial support.

And as a matter of fact....lower income individuals DO get special credits on their tax return, at least where I am. They are considered to have less of a tax obligation and there are extra credits (amounting to extra return) if you fall below a certain level. I don't recall what it is at the moment, but I've been able to claim it a couple times in the last few years, but not all of them.

And for the record...I work part time because I go to school full time, in a highly demanding program. The university discourages work at all due to the rigorous nature of my degree path, but I simply can't afford to do that.



juliaoceania -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:20:16 AM)

quote:

Do you pay taxes on your benefit income, Kevin?

See...my idea is to give those able-bodied persons such as yourself one tax-free year on public assistance. Then, i suggest the following:
2nd year on benefits...10% tax
3rd year on benefits...20% tax
4th year on benefits...30% tax

By doing so, it will be an added incentive to turn off your computer and get a job.

So..rather than penalize those who work their asses off to have a higher income, the responsibility of helping to straighten out the financial crisis would fall on those who NEED to work their asses off.

Come on Kevin...aren't you a team player? Your country needs you!!!!




Define "able-bodied"...


My grandmother told my own mother something years and years before her time... she told my mom she didn't believe there were "lazy" people. She said anyone she ever knew that was labeled "lazy" was in some way sick.... Psychologists are just starting to explore that idea. Every time I have known a "lazy" person they were usually paralyzed by anxiety, depression, or some other form of mental disorder...


Now you do not know this person you are posting to, he might not be so "able bodied" as you think. In our country we have very little patience for others... we have even less empathy. We spend very few dollars on those who struggle the most and give oodles to people who don't need it....


Here is the deal, those that have the most in this country have it because the rest of us. They did not make that money in a vacuum. They used our great (falling apart now) infrastructure. They used the collective brain power of our citizens. They in short profited from being a member of our society... they should pay a hell of a lot more because they have profited a hell of a lot more... and they stand to lose more too.



juliaoceania -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:25:34 AM)

quote:

made $128,419. so because of that, i should be taxed around 20% because that would make me a leader. its my responsibility to give extra handouts of what i worked my ass off to get


Seeing that public assistance payments are a very teeny tiny amount of the overall budget, why aren't you more pissed off about the 27,000 a year per citizen you are spending on Israel, for example, or the trillions we are spending on the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq? Why don't you get pissed off at the corporate welfare that we are spending on? Why get bent over .0001% of the budget?

It is unfortunate that certain people would like to get the middle class and the poor against each other so they can't see who is really fucking em in the ass



xxblushesxx -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

made $128,419. so because of that, i should be taxed around 20% because that would make me a leader. its my responsibility to give extra handouts of what i worked my ass off to get


Seeing that public assistance payments are a very teeny tiny amount of the overall budget, why aren't you more pissed off about the 27,000 a year per citizen you are spending on Israel, for example, or the trillions we are spending on the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq? Why don't you get pissed off at the corporate welfare that we are spending on? Why get bent over .0001% of the budget?

It is unfortunate that certain people would like to get the middle class and the poor against each other so they can't see who is really fucking em in the ass


Julia, are you saying you agree with Kevin?



juliaoceania -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:30:38 AM)

quote:

And as a matter of fact....lower income individuals DO get special credits on their tax return,


So do college students... why do you deserve that, and poor people don't? What makes you so special? Isn't the HOPE an earned income credit for up to 4000 bucks, that ain't chump change, now is it? Why are you getting that credit? Because Obama wants to stimulate the economy, and what he hopes is that by giving people who have very little money in the first place some extra cash, they will spend it...












LadyEllen -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:31:08 AM)

Kevin

As as has been said to you many times before, you are entitled to nothing.

Well, almost nothing, because what you are entitled to is the chance, won by the hard and sometimes life and death struggles of your ancestors, to make something of yourself, armed as you are with the profits of education and the freedoms to determine your own actions and fate.

No one is obliged to do anything for you. And what has already been done for you is monumental - you live in a world which, for all its problems, is an absolute paradise, undreamt of even by your great grandparents. Yes there are problems for all of us, but nothing like the problems our ancestors had.

What this means is that it is up to you and you alone to do your ancestors proud, to take the opportunity they sacrificed much to give you and do something with it. They would be shaking their heads in disbelief if they could see you now I can tell you.

And all of your rants against the system? Forget it. All youre doing is getting yourself het up and reinforcing negative thought patterns and beliefs in yourself. It isnt going to change, its just the way the world is, not because of some elite conspiracy but because of the way it has developed as many others have taken the chances given to them to improve their lot. I would put it to you that in Ireland especially, there is little "old money" following the experience under London rule, so almost everyone in your country that has gotten anywhere has done it by their own graft. Is there some luck involved? Sure, but you make your own luck.

Its down to you Kevin. Are you going to work out a plan and go for it, recognising that no one else is going to do anything for you, or are you going to wait, an awfully long time, for some magical solution to your situation to happen along?

Yes there is a recession on. But opportunity is present even so. Insolvency Practitioners, debt collectors, bailiffs and so on do well in a recession, as do businesses offering diversion from the day to day and consultants who can help rescue failing businesses. Where youre stuck is in the idea that you should work for someone else. Newsflash - you never did and never will work for someone else, you were always supplying a service to a business at a price that was right for the (apparent) security it offered.

You really need to kick your therapist if his/her work with you is not aimed at turning around and rectifying the negative thought patterns that are holding you back. This is the root of your problem, the notion that Kevin is useless, helpless and wrong. Get that resolved - there is a whole world of opportunity out there if you can.

E 



juliaoceania -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 7:35:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

made $128,419. so because of that, i should be taxed around 20% because that would make me a leader. its my responsibility to give extra handouts of what i worked my ass off to get


Seeing that public assistance payments are a very teeny tiny amount of the overall budget, why aren't you more pissed off about the 27,000 a year per citizen you are spending on Israel, for example, or the trillions we are spending on the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq? Why don't you get pissed off at the corporate welfare that we are spending on? Why get bent over .0001% of the budget?

It is unfortunate that certain people would like to get the middle class and the poor against each other so they can't see who is really fucking em in the ass


Julia, are you saying you agree with Kevin?


I am saying that if you look at people who are homeless, jobless, can't seem to get it together for years and years. People who are unproductive... those people for whatever reason don't fit into this system. There will always be people who do not. Since the psychological community defines mental disorders by "functioning"... well people who can't seem together are dysfunctional by our societies' criteria.

Most people want a better life. Most people are willing to work for it. If you see someone who doesn't, they probably are not well.. some mentally sick people don't want to get well. We should be humane to those who fall between the tracks.... It is a symptom of how ill we are as a society that we don't want to acknowledge this


I don't know Kevin, but I don't believe in lazy people... got it?

Edited to add... I think the poor are demonized in this country. Most work long hours for little pay... to tax them seems cruel to me when there are other people who have enough money to literally burn in this country...

So yes I agree with him about taxing the poor



sirsholly -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 8:03:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


Define "able-bodied"...

oops...sorry. I didn't think i had to. Physically able to work.

quote:

Now you do not know this person you are posting to, he might not be so "able bodied" as you think.
I do not know him at all. And from his posts, he IS able to work, having been laid off very recently.
quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

my conscience is clear. i worked for seven months unpaid and would happily work the following two months unpaid of the work experience unpaid . What was my reward? Laid off. Thanks employer. You got me for nothing , i got business for You,  You didnt pay me, and now you lay me off. Gratitude . NOT. Will i do it again? You must be joking. i d rather claim benefit than be treated like shit
kevin

annnnnd
quote:

I am not going to lower myself to do Mc Donalds type work. I did not do a college degree to degrade myself like that


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania



My grandmother told my own mother something years and years before her time... she told my mom she didn't believe there were "lazy" people. She said anyone she ever knew that was labeled "lazy" was in some way sick.... Psychologists are just starting to explore that idea. Every time I have known a "lazy" person they were usually paralyzed by anxiety, depression, or some other form of mental disorder...



I can define it as someone who work work because the job is beneath them, among other ways.






xxblushesxx -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 8:15:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So yes I agree with him about taxing the poor


I'm sorry I didn't word my question well. Do you agree with him that people who make over a certain amount should pay an extra 10%
a certain amount over that should pay an extra 20%
a certain amount over that an extra 30%?



LadyEllen -> RE: Benefit scroungers ? (7/1/2010 8:16:10 AM)

Youre missing a vital point though SH - the psychological effects of long term (actually anything over 12 months) on unemployment can produce such dysfunction as to make employment difficult. Additionally there is the problem Aneirin identified in that once in the system and living in it the whole outlook changes even if dysfunction does not result, such that welfare dependents become accustomed to living that way (we should be careful about using the word "lifestyle") and frightened of the sort of change, as all humans are anxious about change, that employment would mean.

We certainly cant continue to fund the system as we have in the past, but additionally we cant continue to allow such fertile ground to be made available in our society for the sort of dysfunction and adaptations that welfare benefit living produces without funding a major expansion in mental health care and policing which we also cant afford.

Equally we cant and wont cut people off without a penny.

So we need to find solutions that will answer all the needs we have and the victims of the failed economic policy have, recognising the issues at hand and engaging them rather than denying them or casting blame at those least able to handle it.

E



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