RE: Aftercare

RE: Aftercare (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 11:03:21 AM)
quote: This is completely true. My Dom actually said to me recently that he was in no mental condition to want to take care of me right after an intense play session - that what he needed was to go off and be on his own. What it seems like to me is that he wants to prolong what he's just gotten for as long as he can before I start getting upset (a day later) and he has to start being sort of nicer. He definitely doesn't willingly come down from the position he likes to be in - I think he wants me to just bounce from intensive play session to intensive play session and stay down in subspace in between. This really sounds like a case of incompatibility. There are women out there that would get off by being in that mind fuck place 24-7... it is in their nature, they get off on it. If being there all of the time isn't in your nature, well it maybe you are setting yourself up for being very unhappy and unfulfilled, and at worst feeling insecure about your value to him... I could be wrong, but it just sounds that way to me

jujubeeMB -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 11:48:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I have no desire to make a human being feel like Trash, Feel Worthless, Uncared for, because there is enough of that alreadyin the world. I only get involved in scenes where there is Mutual enjoyment, not ones that leave someone Broken on the floor. Ok, hold on. I do not feel like trash when he drags me down like that. I feel incredible, and probably the way you and your masochistic partners feel when you're playing. I'm just talking about after, and not during. The issue isn't the type of playing we're doing - though I know a lot of people have problems with humiliation and degradation - it's just the transition between that head space (subspace) back up into going to work or calling my mom for a normal, happy conversation. Let me repeat: I do not need aftercare because I feel terrible during play, I need it because I need to know he cares about me and doesn't REALLY think I'm a fucktoy/hole/whore so I can come back up into being a happily loved human being. He's told me he loves me, and I'm a very lovable person (I swear) so I think feeling that way would be a reasonable expectation. But maybe a lot of you are right. Incompatible. Not going to happen. I don't really like it, but that may be the inevitable conclusion.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 11:50:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania This really sounds like a case of incompatibility. There are women out there that would get off by being in that mind fuck place 24-7... it is in their nature, they get off on it. If being there all of the time isn't in your nature, well it maybe you are setting yourself up for being very unhappy and unfulfilled, and at worst feeling insecure about your value to him... I could be wrong, but it just sounds that way to me The other thing I should express here is that I have told him I think we're incompatible about 97 times. He says that we're not, every time, and insists that he wants all the things I want. What the heck do I do about that?

marie2 -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 11:55:32 AM)
Personally, no, I do not need much in the way of aftercare, and in general I'm not into the warm fuzzies, and I'm a rather non-affectionate sort of person. This is not to say that I want to be used then emotionally detached from like a nameless whore, it's just to say that I would prefer not having the physical touch or cuddling afterwards. However, that is just me. If this is something that you want/need; something that is essential for you, that is all that matters. It is neither right or wrong, good or bad, it just means that the lack of aftercare doesn't work for you. I would tell him how you feel and make it clear how important this is to you, and that it's not something you want to game around with like it's some "reward". If he can't step up to the plate and isn't willing to try, then you have a decision to make: Live with it, or find someone who is compatible with you.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 11:56:01 AM)
Talk is cheap, action isn't. Some says they care about you but consistently fail to do the things you tell them you need...you have to walk away, sometimes even run. Its hard, its painful, it sucks, but your only other choice is to know they will say one thing and do another and if you can make peace with that, fine, if not...

Plasticine -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:15:42 PM)
You know... you are a peach. If someone gives me the privilege of completely demoralizing them, I'm going to turn around and give them whatever they need afterward. Don't mistake selfishness for dominance. It's an easy bluff to buy into. Just dump the guy, you won't have any problem finding someone better.

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:17:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I have no desire to make a human being feel like Trash, Feel Worthless, Uncared for, because there is enough of that alreadyin the world. I only get involved in scenes where there is Mutual enjoyment, not ones that leave someone Broken on the floor. Ok, hold on. I do not feel like trash when he drags me down like that. I feel incredible, and probably the way you and your masochistic partners feel when you're playing. I'm just talking about after, and not during. The issue isn't the type of playing we're doing - though I know a lot of people have problems with humiliation and degradation - it's just the transition between that head space (subspace) back up into going to work or calling my mom for a normal, happy conversation. Let me repeat: I do not need aftercare because I feel terrible during play, I need it because I need to know he cares about me and doesn't REALLY think I'm a fucktoy/hole/whore so I can come back up into being a happily loved human being. He's told me he loves me, and I'm a very lovable person (I swear) so I think feeling that way would be a reasonable expectation. But maybe a lot of you are right. Incompatible. Not going to happen. I don't really like it, but that may be the inevitable conclusion. So that you know I have tried really hard not to speak about you specifically when I am discussing aftercare, I have tried to keep you seperate from my views. So in the quote above I was not talking about you. I was talking about the Mind Fuck of Humiliation, I am cut out for that kind of play, I am a Happy person, I like my submissive/bottom to know just how proud of them I am, in the middle of a scene and afterward, There are times where there is crying and a release, and I am there for them even if I am not in the right head space I am there till they are done crying, but before we reconnect as Master/slave I need to go and take care of me. This is the only point I have been trying to make since I started, but then again I knew my view was not the popular one. It is however one I stand behind. Now, I want to address Specifically one thing, that you said above, so in this I am talking about you. I want to present a difference of opinion. If you do not know how your Master sees you before or after a scene then there is a lack of bond, lack of communication. There are times when my girl takes me anally and because of our history I will refer to her as "My Little Anal Whore" expecially when she orgasms from it. This is not degredation, it is appreciation, it is sign of where she was and where she is now, in the beginning Anal was a limit she had, Some might see calling her a Whore as being degrading, because of the relationship that we have it is a positive thing. My purpose here is to ask you if your relationship is strong enough for this kind of play, as I could call my girl any number of things and she would never for a second have any confusion of how I see her, and the role she has in my life. Aftercare would never be necessary because she knows without a doubt that I infact do not see her as a whore in a negative way... I see her at times as my very own personal whore and for us that is a BIG DIFFERENCE. QSM

juliaoceania -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:17:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania This really sounds like a case of incompatibility. There are women out there that would get off by being in that mind fuck place 24-7... it is in their nature, they get off on it. If being there all of the time isn't in your nature, well it maybe you are setting yourself up for being very unhappy and unfulfilled, and at worst feeling insecure about your value to him... I could be wrong, but it just sounds that way to me The other thing I should express here is that I have told him I think we're incompatible about 97 times. He says that we're not, every time, and insists that he wants all the things I want. What the heck do I do about that? If it were me, I would walk away.. it is not like he can stop you from moving on to greener pastures... I may sound a bit cold, and I know it isn't easy, and I am not being dismissive about how hard it is (and believe me, i know what it is to love and have very basic compatibility problems), but if there is no future, there just isn't.... Unless of course you can see yourself happy with things just the way they are. You aren't going to change him at the end of the day, he has to be willing to change himself and be motivated to do so...

Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:27:49 PM)
Her mental state is not irrational, if you're doing some very dark and seriously edgy stuff, and you've just been torn to shreds, once play is over, it's not irrational to need someone to paste you back together a bit. quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan To tell someone that they should leave because their TOP isn't willing to submit himself to her irrational mental state is beyond me, and in my opinion very bad advice. QSM

Nineveh -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:28:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan <Sighs> And just when people were starting to like me. Aftercare in most cases is crock of shit. No not the giving of it, but the idea that it is one sided. See after a scene, the only kind that I know, I need to step away. My Head is in a very different place. It is in a Sadistic place, usually my arm hurts or is sore, My focus is still locked on their mental capasity but not the one that needs aftercare, the one to make sure she is still there, the controling place where as a Sadist my intention is not to coddle her but to deliver the pain that meets both of our needs. That being said I find the notion that aftercare is necessary, but only to the submissive is completely crap. Now everyone who likes to speak for me listen up. Aftercare in my relationship is discussed prior to play and it is explained I Give aftercare in the form of making sure that she is okay, that she is back mentally, and that whatever shaking from dopemine drop has started to subside, a Blanket, and some water. Then I go TAKE CARE OF ME! I don't expect anyone to do that, I get myself back. Most of it is an internal dialog. Most of it is just removing myself from the stimuli and getting myself back to a natural head space. Now if she feels the need to be held for hours, to have her hair brushed, to be told a hundred times that she is a good girl then I am just not the person to give it to her. I woud be the Wrong TOP for her. To be honest I tend to dislike being with Masochists that get lathargic and cry for release after a scene, I cannot relate, I don't get it, I just don't. To tell someone that they should leave because their TOP isn't willing to submit himself to her irrational mental state is beyond me, and in my opinion very bad advice. The suggestion that aftercare is something that she should earn I think is stupid either he gives it or he doesn't but playing a game with it is retarded. To the OP, ask yourself a serious question. Do you want aftercare because you are lost from what he did? Or in that state do you tell yourself things and need his verbal or physical reinforcement to counter those things? Is this something HE caused or something YOU do all on your own? I know this is NOT the popular view, but it has been accepted by every partner I have had for over a decade. QSM I see you saying two sort of unrelated things. (1) After care is something both subs and Doms need, and often in different ways (2) leaving this guy because the sort of aftercare he needs is incompatible with the kind she needs is stupid. I agree complete with 1. Some Doms, like you, need to step back, get out of the sadistic mindset and back into a more human one. Others, like me, need some bonding time with the sub. I need to reassure myself that I am a caring human being, I need to make sure that she still cares about me and appreciates what I did rather than hating me for it, especcially if it was psychologically intense. on 2 I couldn't disagree more. If her aftercare needs and those of her Dom are fundamentally incompatible, he needs to step back and she needs attention and affection, then they should break up. For both their sakes. Also, to me it doesn't sound like they have incompatible needs so much as he's not connecting to the play anywhere near as deeply as she is. Of course that's only from what she has said and I don't know his side of things.

BitaTruble -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:34:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I am there for them even if I am not in the right head space I am there till they are done crying, but before we reconnect as Master/slave I need to go and take care of me. This is the only point I have been trying to make since I started, but then again I knew my view was not the popular one. It is however one I stand behind. I often tell my own daughter (grown up that she is) that she can't bear the weight of the world on her shoulders if she doesn't take care of herself first. I find your stance honest, realistic and human. It is not unreasonable to suppose that someone who has just gone through some sort of mental torment will need some time to readjust and remember their value and, often, they will need a little help to do so. No problem. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to take the time necessary and recage the beast that those of us who engage in SM unleash even if it's for enjoyment and even when we really like it. Now, you do that on your own.. get your own head space back together and that's a great quality to have and others, my own Master being a good example, enjoy the on-going affirmation that I like him to unload on me, that I appreciate it so the feedback I give to him is important to his own mental well-being and that's something we do for each other. I appreciate you sharing this part of yourself. I find it too rare that those on the opposite side of the kneel from myself allow any vulnerability at all to shine through. It's refreshing to see.

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 12:42:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh I see you saying two sort of unrelated things. (1) After care is something both subs and Doms need, and often in different ways (2) leaving this guy because the sort of aftercare he needs is incompatible with the kind she needs is stupid. {SNIP} Also, to me it doesn't sound like they have incompatible needs so much as he's not connecting to the play anywhere near as deeply as she is. Of course that's only from what she has said and I don't know his side of things. You got me on one, lost me on two. What I was trying to say is that sometimes what looks like abandonment on the side of a Dom is not always that, sometimes it is him taking care of himself. The point I was making is that there is a certain responsibility a Top had to make sure the Bottom is well and STABLE, Not All back together, But STABLE. Then once that is done, the process of getting the sub back from sub space or out of the hole takes time. At this point in my posting without knowing more of the details, I was under the assumption that the Op was suggesting that a sub needs a hour of hair petting, being told she is okay, that she is a good girl, that she made the Top Proud, basically turning around a scene that was designed to tear her down to an aftercare that basically says "It's all about her" The Idea that the Top in question is not willing to sit there for an hour or so and coddle the sub because she feels the Top ACTUALLY Means the things in the scene that the Bottom wanted then telling the Bottom to LEAVE the Top because of that and only that is retarded. Borderline expecting the aftercare to be a Service Top situation. Personally I do not and will not get involved with someone who after a scene is so broken that they need a HOUR of coddling. I have also never seen someone who needs it. What I have issue with is the idea that anyones aftercare is more important that anyone elses. Both people have to take care of themselves. I make sure the Bottom is Stable then I take 10 minutes to gather myself and shake off the effects of my own space, then I return to the sub to reconnect. QSM

juliaoceania -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 1:04:16 PM)
quote: Personally I do not and will not get involved with someone who after a scene is so broken that they need a HOUR of coddling. I have also never seen someone who needs it. What I have issue with is the idea that anyones aftercare is more important that anyone elses. Both people have to take care of themselves. I make sure the Bottom is Stable then I take 10 minutes to gather myself and shake off the effects of my own space, then I return to the sub to reconnect. Most of the time I never have needed that sort of attention,... I have needed it after a certain activity... namely face slapping. It breaks me inside, and although I desire that on some level, it is an extremely intense thing for me... it will bring me to tears, make me wanna vomit, the room spin. It can at times scare the shit out of me, make me feel like my body has been hit by a lightening bolt... When playing like that with someone, if they are that impacted by the play, they can easily need an hour of aftercare. My view is that if a top doesn't wanna deal with the impact of what they do they shouldn't have done it in the first place. If they want someone who is low maintenance on the aftercare, they should make that abundantly clear before play. We are all learning in by each relationship we have what works and what doesn't. Once we learn that we have certain needs, we shouldn't compromise ourselves by being involved with an incompatible person. I think it is fine that you wouldn't do well with someone who has those needs, but as has become abundantly apparent on this thread, not all dominants would feel a sub that needed some extra attention after a scene to be a put off to them It really is chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry

SimplyMichael -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 1:16:13 PM)
QSM, You play with someone who you know, right or wrongly says they need an hours aftercare, it is your responsibility to give it to them. You don't want to? THEN DON'T FUCKING PLAY WITH THEM. There are women I would never play with because I think they use play to GET aftercare as a way of creating a relationship where there is none. That said, there are people who play at levels few of us can imagine and with an intensity. Play at that level requires some serious aftercare, often for both parties. I have some friends in SF who think nothing of black eyes and broken fingers. The two are both touch as nails, no nonsense people and yet they require some serious aftercare afterwards.

laurell3 -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 1:43:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania This really sounds like a case of incompatibility. There are women out there that would get off by being in that mind fuck place 24-7... it is in their nature, they get off on it. If being there all of the time isn't in your nature, well it maybe you are setting yourself up for being very unhappy and unfulfilled, and at worst feeling insecure about your value to him... I could be wrong, but it just sounds that way to me The other thing I should express here is that I have told him I think we're incompatible about 97 times. He says that we're not, every time, and insists that he wants all the things I want. What the heck do I do about that? Don't accept that for an answer. Drop the roles, sit him down and say this is nonnegotiable. It is a need I have and it will not change. Get with the program or I have to find someone else to fill that need and MEAN IT.

laurell3 -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 1:46:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom Her mental state is not irrational, if you're doing some very dark and seriously edgy stuff, and you've just been torn to shreds, once play is over, it's not irrational to need someone to paste you back together a bit. quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan To tell someone that they should leave because their TOP isn't willing to submit himself to her irrational mental state is beyond me, and in my opinion very bad advice. QSM QSM, This is where you are getting yourself in trouble. It's not that you don't give some aftercare, it's your assumption that she is irrational and all the negative connotations. YOU create that state, saying it's irrational and negative after you made it, is just selfish and ridiculous. You cannot begin to fathom the process of submitting in an intense scene. One would argue you aren't even attempting to.

angelikaJ -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 1:56:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan At this point in my posting without knowing more of the details, I was under the assumption that the Op was suggesting that a sub needs a hour of hair petting, being told she is okay, that she is a good girl, that she made the Top Proud, basically turning around a scene that was designed to tear her down to an aftercare that basically says "It's all about her" *The Idea that the Top in question is not willing to sit there for an hour or so and coddle the sub* because she feels the Top ACTUALLY Means the things in the scene that the Bottom wanted then telling the Bottom to LEAVE the Top because of that and only that is retarded. Borderline expecting the aftercare to be a Service Top situation. Personally I do not and will not get involved with someone who after a scene is so broken that they need a HOUR of coddling. I have also never seen someone who needs it. What I have issue with is the idea that anyones aftercare is more important that anyone elses. Both people have to take care of themselves. I make sure the Bottom is Stable then I take 10 minutes to gather myself and shake off the effects of my own space, then I return to the sub to reconnect. QSM QSM, I am wondering how much of any of the input from the OP did you actually read or was it a selective process based on the filtered things that rubbed you the wrong way? I am sorry this is coming across in a way that is likely to make you defensive but you kept responding to an erroneous assumption: She never said she needed an hour. This is what she said: "Maybe I can help clarify a little. I'm looking for like 10-30 minutes of aftercare from my Dom." Also for the record, she did not mention needing or wanting hair petting anywhere. It seems to me you are missing the point: her Dom told her he would give her aftercare and went back on his word and does not provide any. He then suggested he might use aftercare as reward/punishment... to which my response is WTF! You have somehow seemingly turned this into some character defect of hers. I would like to state for the record, in that case, I am wholly defective as well. My Master accepts that fault of mine and is willing to provide me with the aftercare that I need despite the defect. I am thinking I must be delusional or at the very least confused because in this relationship aftercare does not seem mutually exclusive. I offer him a drink. He notices me shivering and gets a blanket and covers us both (despite the fact he is quite warm). And then it seems, he gets a great deal from holding me close to him, caressing my skin, and reminding me softly of his ownership of me. As you have stated, none of the women you would choose to play with would need that... and what you don't know, you won't miss. Edit: trim quotes and the extraneous

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 1:59:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 QSM, This is where you are getting yourself in trouble. It's not that you don't give some aftercare, it's your assumption that she is irrational and all the negative connotations. YOU create that state, saying it's irrational and negative after you made it, is just selfish and ridiculous. You cannot begin to fathom the process of submitting in an intense scene. One would argue you aren't even attempting to. I am not explaining my view on this well. SimplyMichael did it better than me, when he said: quote: There are women I would never play with because I think they use play to GET aftercare as a way of creating a relationship where there is none. This is what I think I am trying to express. Truth be told there are levels I am sure I will never understand. I have no desire to tear someone down, to rip them to shreads, there is enough of that done non-consentually I could not fathom doing it consentually. My Experience is based on my level of play, and with the partners I have had. I cannot claim to understand, nor would I want to attempt to understand why someone would want this.... It just ISN'T my kink. I have however met subs who feel that a 30 minute slap and tickle should allow them to have their partner at their beck and call for the remainder of the evening, I have seen this in action, and I have seen the people who witness it divided among those who think it is absoluely valid and those who think it's complete bullshit. The last play party I attended, I had a lot of people ask me about my slave, she dances while I hit her, she sings along with the song, she screams out when it hurts, but in the end SHE IS ENJOYING HERSELF, He Release comes from knowing I am pleased with her. When her ass is Black and Blue and Brown and Yellow she knows she was good. After I got done I took her down from the Rafters and Helped her to the ground. She Panted and smiles and kissed me and I gave her the rabbit fur for her ass and then I kissed her forhead and left the room. I got back into my head space and came back while another couple was finishing their scene. My girl was watching this girl who was comepletly gone, knees shaking, eyes dialated, cold to the touch. I carried her out of the dungeon to the Main house and sat her down on the couch. This is something that my girl would NEVER NEED, I am sensitive to the needs of others, and I see certain things not as Aftercare but as general care for your partner. What I find irrational (Again maybe not the best word) is the idea that a scene could make a person doubt what they KNOW about their master. If the Bond is STRONG nothing I say to my sub, nothing I do, will ever make her doubt her worth to me. QSM

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 2:10:26 PM)
AngelikaJ I know you may not be able to do this bit everything youi just addressed I addressed previously in this thread. When she said he needed 10 to 30 minuted I said I thought that was totallay reasonable and not out of line. When the Dom said he wanted to use it as a Reward Process I thought that was retarded. If you go through this thread you will see me responding to Two different things, The OP's specific situation, and how I view Aftercare in General, Obviously for me the OP presents circumstances that have me feeling differently about her situation than I would ever allow myself to be in a situation like that in general. The only defect the OP has is that she has surrendered to someone who isn't meeting her needs, this is not a situation I would get myself into, this specific need would have been discussed, and apparently it has accoring to the op 97 times about their compatibility and she is still with him, he is still not giving her what she needs and she is still allowing him to take her to these places. I am sorry, but if you look at this realistically, you can blame him all you want but he is getting EXACTLY what he wants, a Punching bag that he can kick around who keeps coming back for more. I can HATE him all I want, but why would he change his actions when he is being taught he doesn't have to because she keeps letting him tear her apart and then not do anything about it. This is not a defect of character this is a situation where the Bond between Master and slave is not one that reciprocated positive reinforcement of her worth. This is not something I would ever be involved with. QSM

juliaoceania -> RE: Aftercare (7/1/2010 2:12:54 PM)
quote: I have however met subs who feel that a 30 minute slap and tickle should allow them to have their partner at their beck and call for the remainder of the evening, I have seen this in action, and I have seen the people who witness it divided among those who think it is absoluely valid and those who think it's complete bullshit. It is the couple that decide what they need, outsider's opinions are just inappropriate on the matter... why are people "discussing" the parameters of a couple's scene? I mean really, I would never debate the merits of the aftercare of another couple if it suited them...... quote: What I find irrational (Again maybe not the best word) is the idea that a scene could make a person doubt what they KNOW about their master. If the Bond is STRONG nothing I say to my sub, nothing I do, will ever make her doubt her worth to me. Subspace ain't "rational".... There have been times I felt so out of control, knowing I coule not even vocalize "no" and wondered what would happen if I needed to. That sort of experience takes a person to places where they do not even trust themselves, which means they need extra assurance they can trust the person that put them there.

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