RE: Feminism and submission

RE: Feminism and submission (Full Version)

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Firebirdseeking -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:07:04 AM)
In general and not in reply to anyone's comments specifically: It is difficult at times to maintain patience on the boards. The OP presented an internal conflict she is having, as a submissive, with what she perceives are the tenants of feminism. Perhaps we should be asking HER how these are in conflict for HER? how do feminism and submissiveness not interface for her a person and a submissive? Has feminism ever told her she should not have submissive needs, that she should not be in a relationship that is led by a male? Has submission ever told her that feminism is not compatible with her submission? Instead, there is a battle of egos, defining feminism, submission, princesses, dominance, men and women...she wants to be OK with the reality of her life, that she is both a feminist and a submissive. To which I say: OP, you can indeed be both. Being submissive does not mean you are not a feminist. Being a feminist does not mean you are not submissive. Perhaps a kink friendly therapist could be of help.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:09:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Which feminists would these be? I don't know any feminists who think this way at all? It seems they would be the feminists whom you don't know? Just a wild stab in the dark. I've quoted one such feminist for you......probably the most visible feminist of the 20th century.....who penned arguably the most significant feminist text of the 20th century. There are a lot of women who would and do argue that choosing to submit to a man is anti-feminism because......in their view......it is done through the intangible social constraints and influences that lead to that decision. And if you're in any doubt then google it and you'll find a whole raft of essays and the like written by feminists who follow this line of thinking. Anyone claiming that the feminism is defined solely by the freedom to choose.....whatever that choice is......is simply misleading the OP. Now this is entirely different to objecting to the OP defining feminism as she sees fit.....her call....I'm just adding a few thoughts....and one of those thoughts is that feminism...as defined by intellectuals and these ideas have channelled through to the wider populace....is most certainly defined by more than the freedom to choose. The extremist feminist of the 60s and 70s are the feminists of the past. This is the 21st century, and yes feminism was always about the ability to choose for oneself, for a women to forge her own path without ridicule. Betty Friedan, Germaine Greer they were the major feminists on THIS side of the pond, and even they were often to the extreme. But often one needs to go to the far side of something to make a point before they can settle in the middle where they want to be.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:10:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I am very confident that truth does work in a flexible spandexy sort of way when it comes to human nature. If you are going to try and build nice neat little black and white boxes and fit everyone you meet into one, you will have a lifetime of frustrations. Because things 'are' except when they 'are not'. So you can be as confident as you wish, yet you will in your life meet a HUGE number of people that will not fit the norms you have created in your mind. I guaranfuckintee it. I agree with this completely. There are stereotypes, there are majorities, and then there is "truth" that applies to all, and it's a massive leap to go from one to the next. If there is a set, foolproof pattern, it hasn't been found yet. Of course it's also possible there is a pattern and there are mutations. Really, idk, idc, it's not something that's going to be resolved here. Back to the topic of the OP...I remember I was pretty harsh on feminism the last time this was discussed. I'm seeing two sides saying the same thing - one side is saying that women should be free to be who they are and that is feminism, the other side is saying that women should be free to be who they are despite feminism. It seems that the freedoms that people fought for in the 70's and 80's have become the social norms of the 2010's. To me, feminism seems fairly rigid as well as flawed, at least Feminism in the -ism sense. The idea of freedom, for an individual to be what they want to be, to me is more powerful than feminism and transcends it. If some people want to call that feminism, then I'm in agreement with them, but I'm obviously not the only one who feels the way I do because this isn't the first time we've gotten a thread that boils down to "Is it unfeminist for me to be who I am" that expressed very specific ideas of what "feminist" entails. I don't know, I really don't want to get that heavily involved in this again, but I did want to point out that I see a difference between Feminism, the movement/doctrine/-ism, and people who post that feminism, to them, is synonymous with freedom, which is a personal label and not an intellectual doctrine or social movement.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:10:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine See I've actually stayed completely on topic. The fact that you can't see that is the problem. Actually you haven't. The OP did not ask you to define feminism for her. She was trying to reconcile her feminist beliefs with her sexual desires. That really has nothing to do with her secretly wishing some big strong man would come and save her or any of the other nonsense that you posted. The fact that you say you have received emails from women too afraid to post this thread supports you point is meaningless. Women who would support you are the same women who are on here looking for that big strong man to come and rescue them. With all the background you claim to have, and all your "warm readings" you can't figure that out. Sad really. I have not defined feminism. I have defined the problem with rigid feminist thought and the part it plays in creating the sort of conflict expressed in the OP. Which I do believe directly addresses the original concern. I don't think my saying I've received emails means anything to you or anyone, but seeing as I've now received twice as many emails than the number of angry women publicly refuting the notion, it will remain statistically significant to me. I'm sorry that you don't care for my point of view, but that doesn't make it off topic.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:13:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Just because people agree with you does not make you right. It simply means there are people that agree with you. For them, you are correct. What people are trying to tell you and you are failing to understand, is that your truth is not everyone else's truth. I actually have no problem understanding that. And your comment was humorous it just caught me off guard, its not like I swung back hard. [:'(] I am rather sure that truth doesn't work in that flexible spandexy kind of way. I think there is always one truth and then a whole shitload of unknowing ignorance. I'm pretty confident that I'm hitting close to the base of the tree in this particular discussion. God but you are pompous. You really aren't even in the forest.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:13:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine See I've actually stayed completely on topic. The fact that you can't see that is the problem. Actually you haven't. The OP did not ask you to define feminism for her. She was trying to reconcile her feminist beliefs with her sexual desires. That really has nothing to do with her secretly wishing some big strong man would come and save her or any of the other nonsense that you posted. The fact that you say you have received emails from women too afraid to post this thread supports you point is meaningless. Women who would support you are the same women who are on here looking for that big strong man to come and rescue them. With all the background you claim to have, and all your "warm readings" you can't figure that out. Sad really. I have not defined feminism. I have defined the problem with rigid feminist thought and the part it plays in creating the sort of conflict expressed in the OP. Which I do believe directly addresses the original concern. I don't think my saying I've received emails means anything to you or anyone, but seeing as I've now received twice as many emails than the number of angry women publicly refuting the notion, it will remain statistically significant to me. I'm sorry that you don't care for my point of view, but that doesn't make it off topic. Hey, how about you two take this private so we can get back on topic

SimplyMichael -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:16:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Am I the only one who finds it strange that all the deep, intense, philosophical definitions are all given by MEN? Lets examine this closely...young hot chick...okay, examination done, they are all peacocking around her hoping to impress her.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:18:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth Hey, how about you two take this private so we can get back on topic [:'(] I'll go crawl back under my bridge.

MadameMarque -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:19:42 AM)
Okay, okay. Zeph, NorthernGent, VaguelyCurious, I see your point. I rarely go this far posting to a debate that's a non-starter, and though I feel it was, in essence, relevant to the OP, I hate for jujube to come back to so many pages not addressed directly to her! jujube, you have my support, and somewhere in this thread, I wrote to you, directly: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3294392 I'm sure we'll be interested in hearing back from you! Mme. Marque quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Any chance this can remain a reasonable discussion......with points being discussed....rather than it turning into a shambolic tit-for-tat cycle of verbal violence? Is it possible? Come on lads and lasses.....a bit of order and we may all get a thank you from the OP for giving her food for thought. Agreed. It would be great if this thread didn't disintegrate into the same mess the last thread on feminism became.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:20:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth Hey, how about you two take this private so we can get back on topic [:'(] I'll go crawl back under my bridge. If you like, I was just suggesting the convo be continued in private since neither of you are on topic. Reread the OP if you disagree

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth If you like, I was just suggesting the convo be continued in private since neither of you are on topic. Reread the OP if you disagree I really don't care if the thread is on topic or not, but my smarmy nature requires me to point out that if you do care about the thread returning to the topic of the OP you might consider making your posts about feminism and submission rather than about Plasticine and LafayetteLady's posting styles. JMOIMHOKTHXBAI

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:23:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth Hey, how about you two take this private so we can get back on topic [:'(] I'll go crawl back under my bridge. If you like, I was just suggesting the convo be continued in private since neither of you are on topic. Reread the OP if you disagree I was very seriously on topic. Aside from the fielding of criticism all of my points address the issue. But I am done now.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:25:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Am I the only one who finds it strange that all the deep, intense, philosophical definitions are all given by MEN? Lets examine this closely...young hot chick...okay, examination done, they are all peacocking around her hoping to impress her. That is the smartest thing I have seen a man post on this thread! [sm=applause.gif]

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:26:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth Hey, how about you two take this private so we can get back on topic [:'(] I'll go crawl back under my bridge. If you like, I was just suggesting the convo be continued in private since neither of you are on topic. Reread the OP if you disagree I was very seriously on topic. Aside from the fielding of criticism all of my points address the issue. But I am done now. You have mail.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:29:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The extremist feminist of the 60s and 70s are the feminists of the past. This is the 21st century, and yes feminism was always about the ability to choose for oneself, for a women to forge her own path without ridicule. Betty Friedan, Germaine Greer they were the major feminists on THIS side of the pond, and even they were often to the extreme. But often one needs to go to the far side of something to make a point before they can settle in the middle where they want to be. Firstlty......advancing women to leadership positions is not an extreme strand of feminism. It is a constant in feminist thought (that being among intellectuals and campaigners as opposed to the denizens of CM). Secondly....and this one is for the OP.....leadership is patently tied in with political parity...which....again....has been a constant in feminist thought. In D/s....there is no political parity.....you have a right of appeal.....but your dominant has the right to disregard it and his word is final.....something akin to a court of law. So this basic feminist ideal is not in place in a D/s relationship as ultimately your partner is the judge and jury in your situation...with your input of course. Out of curiosity...why does it matter? Ideas are fluid...we're fluid......as human beings we open our mind to new ideas and evolve....there's no line people can draw in the sand and say: "this is what I am" and defend that til the death. Unless of course some people fear change and stick rigidly to ideas built on limited information. I suppose what I'm saying is surely it is more important to go with the flow than it is to worry about whether or not you're conforming to a particular philosophy.....seems like an awful lot of effort and energy expended.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:31:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth If you like, I was just suggesting the convo be continued in private since neither of you are on topic. Reread the OP if you disagree I really don't care if the thread is on topic or not, but my smarmy nature requires me to point out that if you do care about the thread returning to the topic of the OP you might consider making your posts about feminism and submission rather than about Plasticine and LafayetteLady's posting styles. JMOIMHOKTHXBAI And I could say the same thing about yours to me and we could go round and round ad nauseum. An attempt to stop the spiralling of a thread into sniping is a productive one aimed at getting things back on topic.[/font]

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:32:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Am I the only one who finds it strange that all the deep, intense, philosophical definitions are all given by MEN? Lets examine this closely...young hot chick...okay, examination done, they are all peacocking around her hoping to impress her. That is the smartest thing I have seen a man post on this thread! [sm=applause.gif] And...that's the most gender cliche thing a woman's agreed to on this thread? C'est pour des lulz or are we being serious here?

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:35:02 AM)
lawl nm

sweetgirlserves -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 7:47:54 AM)
My hope for this arising generation is that both men and women simply are free to live their lives as they want to (do what makes them happy) and not feel the need to sit around philosophizing about it, rationalizing it, reconciling it ... or anything else. After a while, life is just too short for such mental angst. Just be who you are, enjoy fulfilling relationship(s) and be yourself. The end. Honestly, after years of reading and hashing all this out... can't we all just give ourselves a break and actually enjoy who we are without having to analyze, compare/contrast, compare with historical context, etc etc. Honestly, after a while, the mind is just given too much reign and actually starts inhibiting actually LIVING LIFE AND ENJOYING IT WHILE WE HAVE IT. Today be your last day, do you want to spend it analyzing, or enjoying? Time to move on...

LadyCimarron -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 8:05:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: If it were, then all femdoms would be suffering the penis envy Freud loved to spout off about So is it just a coincidence that femdoms incorporate strap-on play and forced cross-dressing a lot more than femsubs do? It has been my experience that malesubs ask for this type of play AND to be feminized far more often than femdoms request that type of submission.

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