RE: Feminism and submission

RE: Feminism and submission (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

KariCloud -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 8:24:31 AM)
With my emergency bunker standing by just in case... [:)] In direct reply to the OP and not the debate that's happened since: I am a feminist. I'm also a submissive type who's bisexual, so I have been known to submit to males before. I see no conflict. I've had "feminists" try to tell me my choices were wrong before, but that goes against everything that feminism was supposed to be about. Feminism is not "the right to choose as long as it is the RIGHT choice." Feminism is the right to choose one's own life regardless of one's sex/gender. My submission is my choice and thanks to the feminist movement, I have the right to choose this for myself. I have the ability to choose to live out the typical life of a female before the feminist movement, if I want to, and that choice still supports feminism just as much as the women who choose to have a CEO-level career and leaves their male partners home with the children (assuming that is the woman's choice to do so and the man is agreeable of course.. Feminism isn't about putting men in the position women were in before, they too have the right of choice.) Kari

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 8:30:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron It has been my experience that malesubs ask for this type of play AND to be feminized far more often than femdoms request that type of submission. I'll take your word for that...I really don't know enough femdoms to be able to analyze. The whole strap on penis thing is pretty interesting. Feminization not so much, because I've heard of women getting their head shaved for humiliation purposes, which gives the same sort of neutering, but still it does seem that sort of thing is mostly for F/m relationships. I'm totally going to post a new thread about this, I'm curious. ETA - Akasha's post on this thread was more or less what I was getting at - http://www.collarchat.com/m_3260200/mpage_3/tm.htm And actually your own words in that thread said you liked it because it's a "powertrip" - not to get too off topic but what about having a strap-on penis is a power trip if not the 'penis' part?

Mesmerist -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 8:42:49 AM)
quote: What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house? My lovely wife and I both struggled with this in our own way. My personal struggle lies outside your post but my wife was raised as an ultra liberal feminist, going to marches with her mother in the late 60's. She denied her submissive nature for many years as it was 'a betrayal to feminism, self serving and needy.' The glorious idea of feminism as equal rights for women has been turned by some into a rant against femininity and traditional female roles in society to the detriment of us all. You as a woman, with your power and beauty have the right to choose your life. If that is putting on a power suite and becoming a CEO or putting on lingerie and submitting to your husband (or both!), you can choose to do so. I hope you can rectify it for yourself.

RealSub58 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 9:01:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine ED: I also say that at least two women have emailed me expressing appreciation for my thoughts here in the last two hours. I wonder why they didn't want to post in the thread, hrm.... I feel called out !! quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse AH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have lost face! You used the lame ' people have emailed me to agree with me!' Shame shame. Now no one of substance will EVER take anything you write here as credible. Seriously dude, if that is the very best way you can come up with to cop a 'win', you need to rethink your debate skills. LaTigresse, You know I admire you. But this was low. Degradation and humiliation is not the way to manipulate a discourse. I know feel a need to respond. I do value the comments and insights of Plasticine I read the OP and thought...will there be discourse or bashing. I appreciate the ideas presented as my knowledge level on feminism is not strong. I just know I have chosen my own path but am not as strong and control of my own self as I would like to be. NorthernGent also had some serious points to consider. I appreciate and empathize with the OP's conflict, as I also have been conflicted at times......... so I READ and did not respond. Reading without bashing or shaming someone on a thread is my idea of an intelligent discourse. To bad things have gone down hill (as they usually seem to do)....I would have wished for more well written intelligent information. So yes I was a silent voice not in the debate but standing behind some who I thought was intelligently debating and whose line of logic I was understanding AND comprehending.

RealSub58 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 9:20:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine It seems to me that you are hung up on either dominance or submission being somehow better than the other. They are completely equal and opposite. That is where I am coming from. Submission is every bit as powerful. It takes as much power to be dominant as it does to use my own power to submit with humility and respect. So my question is....... EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS A FEMINIST ACT?? I think others has given me enough information to answer this myself now, where before this OP, I could not have. In fact even when dominating a situation it is often wise to choose moments of submission to others in order to gain trust and sympathy. They are both extremely powerful things to do. I have had utmost respect for my Sir when at times he did humble himself from is authority role, while maintaining control and choose to be "submissive" to my ideas, information, opinions and thoughts. He gained more trust and respect in the yin/yang manuevar. It is only when a person chooses to do neither that they are weak.

LaTigresse -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:09:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealSub58 quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine ED: I also say that at least two women have emailed me expressing appreciation for my thoughts here in the last two hours. I wonder why they didn't want to post in the thread, hrm.... I feel called out !! quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse AH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have lost face! You used the lame ' people have emailed me to agree with me!' Shame shame. Now no one of substance will EVER take anything you write here as credible. Seriously dude, if that is the very best way you can come up with to cop a 'win', you need to rethink your debate skills. LaTigresse, You know I admire you. But this was low. Degradation and humiliation is not the way to manipulate a discourse. I know feel a need to respond. I do value the comments and insights of Plasticine I read the OP and thought...will there be discourse or bashing. I appreciate the ideas presented as my knowledge level on feminism is not strong. I just know I have chosen my own path but am not as strong and control of my own self as I would like to be. NorthernGent also had some serious points to consider. I appreciate and empathize with the OP's conflict, as I also have been conflicted at times......... so I READ and did not respond. Reading without bashing or shaming someone on a thread is my idea of an intelligent discourse. To bad things have gone down hill (as they usually seem to do)....I would have wished for more well written intelligent information. So yes I was a silent voice not in the debate but standing behind some who I thought was intelligently debating and whose line of logic I was understanding AND comprehending. RS, No I did not know you admired me and in response to that two things.........thank you and, if you are attempting to chastise me, I do not care. I used humour, as is often my way, to make a point. A point in reference to a thread earlier this week and to speak of what a very lame arguement that aspect of the guy's post was. I don't give a flying fuck how many people email a controversial poster. If they cannot contribute to a thread then their opinion means nothing to me. If a poster cannot make her/his point without bringing phantoms into it, they are pathetic in MY EYES. I fully support a woman's right to chose her own life path. Regardless of societies expectations. OR MY PERSONAL FEELINGS. I see no substance to the argument than feminine attributes mean weak or submissive. No more so than masculine attributes mean strong or dominant. That being said, I also acknowledge that if a person has an emotional investment in there being so, that is what they will see. No different than if I look out the window in front of me and see the beauty of the view and yet am aware that there are those that might look out the same window and see it very differently than I do. For anyone to speak in absolutes about all people makes them a fool. Turn the tables on the poster's opinion to be less than agreeable to how you live and how his opinion fits your life and see how comfortable those absolutes are for you.

heartcream -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:12:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves My hope for this arising generation is that both men and women simply are free to live their lives as they want to (do what makes them happy) and not feel the need to sit around philosophizing about it, rationalizing it, reconciling it ... or anything else. After a while, life is just too short for such mental angst. Just be who you are, enjoy fulfilling relationship(s) and be yourself. The end. Honestly, after years of reading and hashing all this out... can't we all just give ourselves a break and actually enjoy who we are without having to analyze, compare/contrast, compare with historical context, etc etc. Honestly, after a while, the mind is just given too much reign and actually starts inhibiting actually LIVING LIFE AND ENJOYING IT WHILE WE HAVE IT. Today be your last day, do you want to spend it analyzing, or enjoying? Time to move on... Ummmm not sure why we are being encouraged not to discourse and think about things, talk about them. I am not sure I am buying your superiority here. You can do whatever you want. Some people ENJOY LIFE AND SPEND TIME WITH DISCOURSING AND THE LIKE (what up with the caps?) quote: I really don't care if the thread is on topic or not, but my smarmy nature requires me to point out that if you do care about the thread returning to the topic of the OP you might consider making your posts about feminism and submission rather than about Plasticine and LafayetteLady's posting styles. JMOIMHOKTHXBAI This is funnnny! WDTIATEM? (What does the initials at the end mean?)

Jeffff -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:12:50 AM)
Lat, you know how I feel about you........ That's all.... I just wanted to say that...:)

heartcream -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:16:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream Well, okay great thanks. Maybe you could explain a bit about this: quote: This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. I'll try to briefly but this gets into my whole methodology. I strongly suspect that depersonalization is desired most by women who are fighting with themselves to be something that they are not in this "man's world", generally due to the cultural messages of "feminism". Women are actually at their most powerful and have the most social control when they are vulnerable, feminine and free... and completely comfortable with that. I teach control through control. I want to show them that through control they can allow themselves to be all those things and actually end up more powerful than they would be by "protecting themselves". A woman can be my slut, but in the world I want her to be one kick ass chick and this is the key. I love to control powerful women, and a woman in control of her femininity is the most powerful kind. As much as it might seem that more intelligent women have less issues with this, I actually find the exact opposite to be true. The brighter the girl, generally the more conflicted... until someone shows her the light or she figures it out for herself. This is curious to me. I am wondering what sort of control you teach? I am wary of approaches that cancel out, over ride some parts of the self at the sake of others. I find it may work for a while but in some form or another symptoms show themselves. Being all of oneself, male or female seems really vital and important to me. Having acceptance for all of the self, not just some parts seems crucial to me.

heartcream -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:19:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Lat, you know how I feel about you........ That's all.... I just wanted to say that...:) Well played! I concur!

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:32:20 AM)
Ok, this will seriously teach me not to post a thread and then go to sleep [:D] First of all, I have to say thank you so, so much to everyone who's contributed so far. I'm actually rather touched by the amount of posts that were all trying so hard to genuinely help me figure this out. I'm also thrilled to find out that there are so many very confident feminists on this site (both male and female), even though the definition seems to vary from person to person. Someone asked me to detail what feminism means to me, which I think would be really helpful at this point, and I wish I'd done a better job in the opening post. Feminism has always meant to me that if you're looking at a man and a woman, and you have a problem to solve (like, how to make the board meeting go off without a hitch, or how to construct a building) and both are pretty much equally qualified, no one is regarded as more capable because of their gender. Feminism means to me that we don't assume that the female partner stays home and takes care of the kids, we don't ridicule the men who choose to do so, everyone can be cooks, everyone can be presidents - there is nothing that either gender can't do (except football, but who would really want to do that [:)] ). It also means to me that people don't tell me I'm pretty to make me feel better, or think I ought to use my femininity to get a job done. It means that there are masculine and feminine characteristics, but those are neither male or female exclusively, and many people are sort of androgynous about them. It means that women with short hair and no makeup aren't brushed off and that women with gorgeous makeup and shiny long hair aren't instantly objectified. It means that anything a man values himself for a woman should be able to value herself for the same, and vice versa. I do genuinely find this in conflict with what I want. I think the responses so far have been brilliant takes on it, but where I get into trouble is when I'm in a situation with someone who expects my submission to be thoroughly feminine. Someone pointed out (I'm really sorry about the lack of names in this post - there were too many good ones) that I probably have had some bad experiences with Doms who treated me as if I genuinely was inferior, and that probably grated me the wrong way, but I have a really hard time really relishing the roles unless I feel like that element of inequality and power exchange is there. But at the same time, when a Dom is taking my submission for granted, I get this giant flare of anger, like "who does he think he is that I'll just submit to him and he deserves it??" Followed, of course, by incredible gratefulness at what he's doing to me. I just don't know how to cut out that obnoxious voice in between, and maybe it is the men I've been with. I mentioned people expecting my submission to be feminine. What I mean by that is I am very cute and girly and I love my hair and making my eyes all smoky, but I don't defer. Period. I don't walk around gracefully, I'm kind of a klutz. I'm nobody's image of lovely femininity lightly drifting through the door and taking her place at someone's feet. I'm more like "hey, what's up. I have to go march in a rally now. Oh, you want your cock sucked? Make me." [:D] But I swear, all I want to do half the time is push guys that I desire to knock me down so I get to be in that truly delicious, peaceful place of not being in control. (and as a side note, pushing Doms is not particularly successful...) I'm going to go back and revisit all the posts I just read through again, but I wanted to get this out there because I think it'll help. I'm not going off of a generalized definition of feminism, and it's not something I feel like I ought to want. I genuinely am a feminist, in the sense that I don't actually believe there are many differences between men and women, except biologically. And I want to relish the power I know I have, and find someone to give it to when I trust he'll give it back.

Jeffff -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:34:10 AM)
You have at least one nice nipple! Sorry... it needed to be said.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:35:40 AM)
Oh, and as a side note, I know there's been a debate raging, so let me just clear up my take on the matter: feminism hasn't ruined anything. It's more important to me than my submission, and if I had to sacrifice one, I'd sacrifice my sexuality (which would suck). I'm hoping I don't have to, and from what everyone has said so far, it doesn't look like I will.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:37:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff You have at least one nice nipple! Sorry... it needed to be said. [sm=biggrin.gif] Thanks.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:47:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB But at the same time, when a Dom is taking my submission for granted, I get this giant flare of anger, like "who does he think he is that I'll just submit to him and he deserves it??" He thinks he's a person worth/capable of inspiring/deserving the gift of [:'(]/who happens to be getting/[insert other flavour here] your submission; not because he's a man, but because he's just that awesome. If he wants you all girly and flowery, then that's what he wants-the question doesn't have to be 'is it wrong for me to want to give him what he wants?'. It can be 'is he awesome enough to make me want to give him what he wants, when what he wants a French maid's outfit and heels higher than my feet are long?'

sweetgirlserves -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:47:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB . Someone pointed out (I'm really sorry about the lack of names in this post - there were too many good ones) that I probably have had some bad experiences with Doms who treated me as if I genuinely was inferior, and that probably grated me the wrong way, but I have a really hard time really relishing the roles unless I feel like that element of inequality and power exchange is there. But at the same time, when a Dom is taking my submission for granted, I get this giant flare of anger, like "who does he think he is that I'll just submit to him and he deserves it??" Followed, of course, by incredible gratefulness at what he's doing to me. I just don't know how to cut out that obnoxious voice in between, and maybe it is the men I've been with. Who does he think he is that I'll just submit to him and he deserves it... Hopefully, for you, he is the man that cares about you, nurtures you, guides you, supports you, encourages you... etc... in otherwords, he is the one that inspires your 'want to' submit. If not, you will have those thoughts because he hasn't earned your submission. When he provides the right surroundings, support, environment, etc to submit fully, then he has earned it and you will not have those feelings. It most likely won't be the first man that comes along, and who knows how many you will have to go through, but at some point, hopefully you will find the one that provides what you need. He empowers you to submit in that way as you empower him, in your submission, to provide the control you need. That is what power exchange truly is in my mind. If it is just play with a part time play partner, then of course, you are going to have those feelings, both the frustration (because truly, he doesn't deserve it, he's just a play partner)... and the gratefulness, because at least in play, you had a way to experience your need for submission in a momentary way.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 10:54:49 AM)
Ok, I'm just going to grab just a few of the points where I had questions or particularly noticed an element of what I'm struggling with. Hope this doesn't get too tedious to read: quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself I don't believe that all men are superior to me - heck, I probably wouldn't believe that my partner was superior to me! I would give him the right to control aspects of our/my life, but only because I don't WANT to control them for myself. Do you find that your partner believes they're superior to you? And does he ever control parts of your life that you do want to control, but let him do it because he wants to? quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 And i find nothing contradictory in "equal and different". I am not less than my partner - for that matter, if i wasn't there, my partner would be masterbating, so i am performing a necessary function - that of target! [:D] I realize that you're being somewhat tongue in cheek, but this is actually a part of submission that I have a huge problem with. My Dom (ex,probably) always wanted me to say and repeat that I was being useful because of the pleasure I was giving him. I find it enormously hot to define my usefulness based on something like that, but I don't find it particularly compatible with the big, lofty ideas of self worth in my head. [:)] Any further thoughts? quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent In sum: de Beauvoir would not agree that the freedom to choose a life with a man who is the dominant partner.....is in tune with feminism. I know. It's not in tune with half the people I grew up reading and respecting... quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious OP, let's pretend for a minute that you were bisexual/gay and submitting to a woman (bear with me here). The issue with feminism wouldn't arise then, would it? You would be ceding control to said theoretical woman because you wanted to; questions of gender equality wouldn't arise. So why, if you replace that theoretical woman with a man, should there suddenly be a problem? Isn't that a bit...misandristic? (I think that's the word.) You are giving control to a person, not their gender. Your partner is accepting that control from a person, not a gender. I actually think this is one of the most interesting things that was brought up. I don't think I would have the remotest problem submitting to a woman. Damn, I wish I was a lesbian. [:)] It's a very interesting point, and I would love to flesh it out, even if I don't do that on this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth I grew up in the 60s and when women asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up I said housewife. I was immediately reminded that I could have it all. I didn't WANT it all I wanted to be a housewife dammit but it wasn't good enough for them. To me they were doing exactly what they were claiming the world was doing to me, not allowing me the choice I wanted to make. Right, but I don't want to be a housewife. I want to be the ruler of the world, and another ruler from another planet comes and conquers me secretly [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Instead of focusing on the details of your moms' relationship and the way they interacted with each other, focus on how they were both being true to who they are, being fulfilled in their desire to find love on their own terms rather than what society dictated for them. Then focus on how liberating that must have been for them. This is a remarkably good point, but neither of them is going against what they grew up believing. Both found it a total relief to come out of the closet, because they hated their childhoods and would be able to separate completely from that sort of stereotypical dysfunctional midwestern household. And it's been them against the world, whereas I feel like I've spent my whole life fighting against the system and now I want to be apart of it. Keep in mind that I grew up as liberal as a person can be, and feel like I'm going the opposite direction, which is unnerving.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 11:10:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I think in your case, if I can hazard a guess only from the afercare thread, that you are having these conflicting feelings because a particular PERSON is making you question your feelings. I think if you had a man who did all this to you and still made you feel like the wonderful, smart, respected girl you are, you would not be questioning and conflicted. The ones with no power are the ones who allow society to choose for them or who allow someone to make them feel subjugated without their consent. Maybe you're right about my choice of people to pursue this with, but my Dom insists that he's a feminist. It seems that a lot of Doms do around here [:)] I didn't highlight it, but you also said something about not allowing your submission to dictate choosing an assertive profession. I think that may be part of the problem, since I've been an actress for five years and have only recently started realizing that I don't like taking direction when I'm smarter than the director [:)] Maybe there's just too much powerlessness in my life when I'm switching from a submissive profession to the unknown of a new major/grad school and simultaneously submitting sexually, and I need to find some balance where I'm in control somewhere. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Secondly....and this one is for the OP.....leadership is patently tied in with political parity...which....again....has been a constant in feminist thought. In D/s....there is no political parity.....you have a right of appeal.....but your dominant has the right to disregard it and his word is final.....something akin to a court of law. So this basic feminist ideal is not in place in a D/s relationship as ultimately your partner is the judge and jury in your situation...with your input of course. Out of curiosity...why does it matter? Ideas are fluid...we're fluid......as human beings we open our mind to new ideas and evolve....there's no line people can draw in the sand and say: "this is what I am" and defend that til the death. Yes. This is very, very true. There's no fairness in a damn D/s relationship, because what if I know better than the person in charge and by opinion gets shot down? What if I don't know better and I get shot down and I resent it because I still think I do know better? How can I possibly make my own mistakes if I'm not making the decisions on what I do? Not trying to challenge, just trying to dig so I can figure it out. Oh, and I am absolutely a fluid, changing person, but there are things that are "what I am" and I will defend them till the death [:)] Ok, I could comment on a dozen more posts, but I'll stop for now because I've said waaay too many things in the past ten minutes.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 11:12:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB everyone can be cooks, everyone can be presidents - there is nothing that either gender can't do I would agree. Yet I suppose the feminist ideal is something along the lines of: "yes....we know we can be leaders.....but that knowledge in itself isn't enough....we have to prove it through actually being leaders.....and our 'trailblazing' will set the standards for future women and will ensure we take a decisive and irreversible step away from the gender imbalance within society......it's our duty to make this world a fairer place rather than talk about it....there's talking and then there's doing"......which is why women attaining leadership roles (i.e. in significant numbers) is a goal in the feminist ideal. What about this then? You do your feminist bit in wider society....attaining whatever leadership roles are open to you....and in your private life choose to submit to a man.....a nice even compromise and everyone's happy! Which is pretty much what de Beauvior accomplished.....extremely successful in her field of work.....planted ideas that are still with us today.....and served women up on a plate for her lover. The great irony is this: that which de Beauvior railed against....i.e. becoming the 'other' to the 'essential'....actually happened to her as she's best known for being Jean Paul Sartre's lover....

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 11:19:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Yes. This is very, very true. There's no fairness in a damn D/s relationship, because what if I know better than the person in charge and by opinion gets shot down? What if I don't know better and I get shot down and I resent it because I still think I do know better? How can I possibly make my own mistakes if I'm not making the decisions on what I do? That's not quite what I was saying: I'm sure there will be times when you know better....I mean.....once people attain a certain level of education....then much of what is being discussed will be solid opinions going back and forth and sometimes you'll be closer to the mark.....regardless...where you have a difference of opinion and something has to be done then his say will be final......whether or not you know better. 'Shot down' sounds a touch strong....I'm thinking more: "yeah...good point....but we're doing it this way and here's why". Of course you're making decisions on what you do.....well...unless you're being micro managed to the nth degree....but there will be times when you have a difference of opinion....or a problem with communication or something or other....and then someone is going to have to take the lead.

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625