Are Men Becoming Irrelevant?

Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 7:53:51 AM)
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/ I am not sure you will be able to click through the link if you are not a subscriber to the Atlantic Magazine so I will summarize the article as well as I can and ask for your comments. The data presented applies to the US but I assume it speaks to similar conditions in Canada, the UK, and other Western European nations and I invite your comments as well. --------------------------------- In the new post manufacturing economy thinking and communicating have eclipsed physical strength and stamina as keys to economic success. Formal education credentials are increasingly required and women hold an expanding edge except in Engineering and in the Physical Sciences. Men have been much more recalcitrant in adapting to this new environment. Women students dominate in community colleges, universities, and professional schools. Some schools have had to resort to an unspoken “diversity” policy to encourage the entrance of more male students. Women now hold a majority of the nation’s jobs while male figures are increasingly absent from the home at all socio-economic levels. Of the fifteen job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the US all but two (janitorial and engineering) are occupied by women. Women now hold 51.4% of managerial jobs vs. 26.1% in 1980; 54% of accountants are women; 50% of all banking and insurance jobs are held by women; 33% of doctors and 45% of lawyers are women. More and more businesses are accommodating the desire of women to have both significant workplace careers and children with flex time and telecommuting arrangements. While still rare in the largest companies female CEOs out-earned their male counter parts by 43% and received bigger raises recently. The old model of command and control leadership is giving way to a “post-heroic” or “transformational” form of leader who behaves like a good coach and uses charisma to motivate others (Think Obama and the criticism against his style) The gender gap is growing but in an unexpected fashion. Men are not only being left behind in the workplace. Marriage may be disappearing because women are setting the terms too high for men to reach. More women have useful education skills at all socio-economic levels and do not find men who can share the financial responsibility of raising a family, so they opt to go it alone and create their own matriarchy. Interestingly, women are also making the decision of child gender in sperm selection processes and as many as 75% are selecting for girls. Similar trends as those in this article have been reported in South Korea, China, and India. --------------------------------------- So, what impact might we expect from this re-ordering of society that seems to be under way? Let’s assume for the sake of argument the trend will continue and we will see increasing numbers of women in positions of political and economic power. In the years ahead their numbers will increase significantly among CEOs of major corporations. More and more women will enter Congress and Parliament. The States will have a series of female Presidents while Canada and the UK more frequently have female PMs. As women gain political power we may see more emphasis on solving environmental and clean energy problems, a draw down of the military-industrial complex and less likelihood of needless warrior crusades, a more progressive policy towards issues of education and health care and etc. On the other hand, every radical revolution unleashes reactionary backlashes. Push back should be anticipated from patriarchal churches. The military is not likely to alter its command and control structure but will seek to simply co-opt the increasing number of women in the officer corps to its long standing traditions. Under-educated, jobless men will seek more ways to retain their machismo. Fight clubs? Higher crime rates? More football hooliganism? And finally, leaving Maggie Thatcher aside as a one off in a different era, the ascension of women into positions of power may reduce the probability of war between nations but it may as likely leave us vulnerable to the incursions of patriarchal radical Islamists who view the change as weakness. It is kind of difficult to reduce this to one simple question other then to ask you what impact do you perceive if the trend continues full throttle into the future? In the alternative, what disagreement do you have with the premise and the propositions I have laid out?

laurell3 -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 7:55:46 AM)
Irony....you have to love it!

mnottertail -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 7:58:07 AM)
men have always been irrelevant, but they have a penis so they are indespensible.

pahunkboy -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 7:59:23 AM)
Nope. Not true.

laurell3 -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 7:59:53 AM)
haha I was soooo going to type that men will always be relevant until they make dildos out of flesh...but meh...it's P&R, so many here lack a sense of humor............ Thanks though Ron!

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 8:08:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail men have always been irrelevant, but they have a penis so they are indespensible. Wonder if anyone is experimenting in cloning sperm? [:D]

Owner59 -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 8:15:24 AM)
As the job pool gets more equally distributed,of course men are going to get a smaller piece of the pie.But only because men traditionally have held more and better paying jobs. Women have proven that they can perform as good as men in almost every arena.The only exceptions I can think of is kick-boxing/karate and Rugby.And I know a few women who could kick most any man`s ass

AsmodaisSin -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 8:18:14 AM)
I don't think men will ever be irrelevant. Women need men. Children need men. Without men, the development of children is off-kilter.

LaTigresse -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 8:44:14 AM)
I don't see the changes as being any big drama. Things are just smoothing out and settling down nearer where they should be. Men will adapt and the women that love them will help them do so. Any fool that thinks the world is going to turn into one big bunch of pussies with no conflict or war has never worked in an environment dominated by women. There will always be conflict and war..........it will simply be more covert and less messy. There will be less obnoxious chest thumping and bragging, more knife in the back type elimination of the problem if the opposition does not see it their way.

DCWoody -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 8:52:44 AM)
That women appear more successful in some areas is blown out of all proportion in the same way as men overacheiving in others. Difference being one is openly 'are men irrelevent' whereas mentioning the other is either a sign of sexism or in the context of 'we have to fix this inequality'. Women have outperformed at educational facilities in subjects which aren't almost entirely logic based (ie maths) since as long as they've had equal footing, it's hardly new news.

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 10:19:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DCWoody That women appear more successful in some areas is blown out of all proportion in the same way as men overacheiving in others. Difference being one is openly 'are men irrelevent' whereas mentioning the other is either a sign of sexism or in the context of 'we have to fix this inequality'. Women have outperformed at educational facilities in subjects which aren't almost entirely logic based (ie maths) since as long as they've had equal footing, it's hardly new news. Or is it perhaps that we are so accustomed to seeing men out front in politics, sports, and communications that we find it inconceivable that the Western world should migrate to a system of women based power? The article concedes that men still excell at University in Engineering and Physical Sciences. However, the point is made that thinking processes and communications skills are becoming more important, my own addenum here being that thinking skills are not singularly based upon mathematics.

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 10:32:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I don't see the changes as being any big drama. Things are just smoothing out and settling down nearer where they should be. Men will adapt and the women that love them will help them do so. Any fool that thinks the world is going to turn into one big bunch of pussies with no conflict or war has never worked in an environment dominated by women. There will always be conflict and war..........it will simply be more covert and less messy. There will be less obnoxious chest thumping and bragging, more knife in the back type elimination of the problem if the opposition does not see it their way. I have seen the argument made that women would be more reluctant to send their children off to war. Might that not, if true, be an inhibition or at least a hesitation to act without further diplomatic efforts?

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 10:37:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin I don't think men will ever be irrelevant. Women need men. Children need men. Without men, the development of children is off-kilter. Interestingly, there is a companion article in the same magazine that points to "research" which indicates that fathers don't contribute so much to the child's psychic well-being but that kids will thrive if there is at least one other significant parent figure. Obviously a case being made in favor of homosexual adoption, I concede, but traditionally fathers have been absent a great deal from the lives of their children. Ya think?

LaTigresse -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 11:31:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I don't see the changes as being any big drama. Things are just smoothing out and settling down nearer where they should be. Men will adapt and the women that love them will help them do so. Any fool that thinks the world is going to turn into one big bunch of pussies with no conflict or war has never worked in an environment dominated by women. There will always be conflict and war..........it will simply be more covert and less messy. There will be less obnoxious chest thumping and bragging, more knife in the back type elimination of the problem if the opposition does not see it their way. I have seen the argument made that women would be more reluctant to send their children off to war. Might that not, if true, be an inhibition or at least a hesitation to act without further diplomatic efforts? Honestly, I don't see that as being a deciding factor. The fact is, even if I were president at this very moment, neither of my children would be going off to war. The same would hold true for many women, for various reasons. I also believe that many if not most, women process this stuff differently and would likely deal with some of the issues that lead up to war differently also. Yet, knowing myself as I do, being a woman would absolutely not hinder me from making that final choice, if indeed I felt it was called for.

xBullx -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 11:42:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It is kind of difficult to reduce this to one simple question other then to ask you what impact do you perceive if the trend continues full throttle into the future? In the alternative, what disagreement do you have with the premise and the propositions I have laid out? We, no matter who we are, are only made great or irrelevant at the efforts, or lack thereof, of our own hands. Life is cyclical and therefore when allowed to progress it seems to always restore natural balance. Each gender has it's place within the natural design, we can deny that, we can attempt to disprove it, we can try to fight it, we can even try and fool it, often accomplishing little more than fooling ourselves in the process. But nature cares little about our delusion of self importance; neither men nor women will ever be irrelevant to one another, that is nature's intent and if balance fails so then will the species. Just one man's opinion......

Moonhead -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 12:05:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Or is it perhaps that we are so accustomed to seeing men out front in politics, sports, and communications that we find it inconceivable that the Western world should migrate to a system of women based power? Yep, I think it is. Maybe when 51% of the political class sit down to piss, there might be something to the argument that men are becoming irrelevant. In the meantime, it just seems to be whining from a few guys who feel that their priveleges are in jeopardy. Poor babies.

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 12:41:27 PM)
quote: I also believe that many if not most, women process this stuff differently and would likely deal with some of the issues that lead up to war differently also. Yet, knowing myself as I do, being a woman would absolutely not hinder me from making that final choice, if indeed I felt it was called for. Okay, that's a start in the direction I was going I think, LT. Women process stuff differently. Perhaps they would not be so quick to strike up the bands, wave the flags, and send the kids off on adventures fraudently advertised as keeping the nation safe. Hmmm, ya think?

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 12:44:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It is kind of difficult to reduce this to one simple question other then to ask you what impact do you perceive if the trend continues full throttle into the future? In the alternative, what disagreement do you have with the premise and the propositions I have laid out? We, no matter who we are, are only made great or irrelevant at the efforts, or lack thereof, of our own hands. Life is cyclical and therefore when allowed to progress it seems to always restore natural balance. Each gender has it's place within the natural design, we can deny that, we can attempt to disprove it, we can try to fight it, we can even try and fool it, often accomplishing little more than fooling ourselves in the process. But nature cares little about our delusion of self importance; neither men nor women will ever be irrelevant to one another, that is nature's intent and if balance fails so then will the species. Just one man's opinion...... Interesting point, Bull. But suppose we are no longer in nature, we are socialized, and the "natural design" no longer means dick. That was the point of the article. Economic forces are rendering the natural design moot.

Moonhead -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 12:53:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It is kind of difficult to reduce this to one simple question other then to ask you what impact do you perceive if the trend continues full throttle into the future? In the alternative, what disagreement do you have with the premise and the propositions I have laid out? We, no matter who we are, are only made great or irrelevant at the efforts, or lack thereof, of our own hands. Life is cyclical and therefore when allowed to progress it seems to always restore natural balance. Each gender has it's place within the natural design, we can deny that, we can attempt to disprove it, we can try to fight it, we can even try and fool it, often accomplishing little more than fooling ourselves in the process. But nature cares little about our delusion of self importance; neither men nor women will ever be irrelevant to one another, that is nature's intent and if balance fails so then will the species. Just one man's opinion...... Interesting point, Bull. But suppose we are no longer in nature, we are socialized, and the "natural design" no longer means dick. That was the point of the article. Economic forces are rendering the natural design moot. The natural design has been flouted for a very long time now, in any case. Who thinks it's natural for any kind of animal to be sleeping eight hours a day and cooking its food? Anybody on here been crippled by a dose of polio or rickets? I have always found the spectacle of people who are quite happy to spend a fortune on having their teeth fixed or making sure that their kids get all of their shots having the brass neck to argue about the natural order of things in a few specific cases where it suits them pretty disgusting. The natural order of things extends a lot further than gender roles, I'm afraid.

vincentML -> RE: Are Men Becoming Irrelevant? (7/6/2010 12:55:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Or is it perhaps that we are so accustomed to seeing men out front in politics, sports, and communications that we find it inconceivable that the Western world should migrate to a system of women based power? Yep, I think it is. Maybe when 51% of the political class, there might be something to the argument that men are becoming irrelevant. In the meantime, it just seems to be whining from a few guys who feel that their priveleges are in jeopardy. Poor babies. There were no guys whining, Moon. The article was written by a Hannah Rosin as a presentation of observable changes in our socio-economic structure. Most jobs lost in this last recession are jobs lost to blue collar types in construction. Jobs lost previously in the US "rustbelt" were jobs worked by male factory workers. Those jobs are not coming back. Finance and Insurance make up the major part of the new Western economy. You don't need muscles to succeed in those professions. Lower middle class men are losing out big time.

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