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Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/20/2004 9:42:51 PM   
strongnsubmissiv


Posts: 197
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		I've been around a forum or two, and i think on every one i've shared this article. I'm going to cut and paste it here as well for those who haven't seen it.


.


Years ago, as i was sneaking out of the D/s closet, i attended local munches with some pretty nice lifestyle folk. Amongst the many i met, i managed to sit and chat with a local kinkling named kermy. Kermy is a wonderfuly hardwired sub male, and like many of us, inherits the same feelings, thoughts, and pitfalls this orientation seems to bestow upon us.

That said, kermy wrote a compelling article about some thoughts, and i've directed many like minded male subs to it in the past. I want to take the opportunity to share it here. Hopefully it will have the same positive impact with you, as it did with me the first time i read it.

*Snip*
A male submissive’s declaration of principles.

by kermy





Perhaps I was a bit naïve, but I had a rude shock today. Did you know that most people view male subs as self-serving insincere jerks? I had never thought of us that way before and was surprised to discover this was the generally accepted impression.

I had traveled into Bondage.Net to help expand our irc.bondage.com #BBW-Submission channel, and while there, out of curiosity, I wandered through some of the other channels on the network. This is the first time I had been in any channel other than BBW-Submission in almost 2 years and I had forgotten what it was like not to feel at home. I was meeting people whose first reaction of me was not favorable. I was upset by my experience and took to some serious thought to explain it to myself. Was I doing something wrong? It hurt me to think that women thought of me in a poor light all because I introduced myself as a sub. I love women. I adore and cherish them. My best friends are women. As a submissive I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the female gender. To know that they look at me like I am something they scraped off their shoe struck an unpleasant and disturbing chord in me.

Why is this happening? Well the problem is that at least 90 percent of all male submissives are not really submissives at all, just horny guys who want to orgasm in a humiliating manner, and once they do they don’t give a damn about anyone but themselves. They move from one Domme to another portraying themselves to be slavish worthless bugs, and after awhile, that is how we are viewed as a whole. We may be subs, but I believe we deserve better.

What can be done? Well, we need to start by repairing our reputation. This can only be done by setting a good example. It is a battle each of us as sincere male subs have to take on personally, and only through the quality of our actions can we fight this stigma. It is going to be a long and tiring journey, but if we hope to ever reclaim our good names as submissives, we need to take to arms and give it our all.

What do we arm ourselves with to fight the good fight? Here is a list of 10 things I believe are essential:

Respect:

Just as we need to show respect for women, (those we serve and those we do not) we need to respect ourselves and take pride in our submissiveness and what it stands for. It is who we are and we should feel good about it, not be embarrassed by it.

Sincerity:

I can not stress this enough. Our words and actions must coincide. Trust is the cornerstone of every relationship and doubly so in a D/s one. Without trust, there is no respect and it only takes one wrong move and your reputation as a good sub is gone forever. If we are ever going to change how we are perceived, we have to be trusted.

Patience:

Not everyone is going to accept us over night. There has been too much damage done to have that happen. It is going to take a long time and hard work and who knows, we may never get there. But still we have to try.

Chastity:

No I don’t mean externally enforced chastity as in a belt. I am referring to self-motivated chastity. Do not enter into sexual relationships on whims. Do not jump from one Domme to another to attain your sexual goals. Do not ask for sex, especially from those you do not know well, and do not expect it for services rendered. Submission and how it makes you feel should be your motivation to serve, not the sexual reward.

Admiration:

Women are amazing. They love us, inspire us, they make us better human beings. They make us feel happy, whole, strong and worthy. For that, they are invaluable and deserve our quiet awe and admiration.

Loyalty:

We must always be loyal to our Lovers and our friends. We need to stand by them, defend their name and honor, and never betray our bond to them. Without loyalty there is no trust, and without trust, no respect.

Tolerance:

You won’t always immediately see eye- to-eye with others. Sometimes you may never agree with them. Regardless, you still must be able to respect their rights to do what they will. Tolerance, especially in the realm of BDSM is very important. There are as many activities and ways to do things as there are people doing them. Some may rub you the wrong way but if its consensual, safe and sane, you should respect their right to do what they want.

Responsibility:

We need to take responsibility for our actions as well as the actions of others. That is not the same as taking the blame. What we do is a reflection of ourselves and if we ere along the way (and we all do) we need to own up to it and learn from the mistakes. We should not blame our horny misguided brethren for our reputations; we should instead apologize for them and make right by them however we can.

Unity:

Sincere submissives make up a very small part of the “male subbie” population. Perhaps if we find a way to unite against this problem, we will have more success. We should be able to exchange ideas, thoughts and questions with one another. Men in general do not communicate well with one another about their feelings. This is something we could improve upon by being there for each other and offering moral support.

Love:

We need the capacity to love. Love the women we serve, love our friends and family, love those we don’t even know, but most importantly, we need to love ourselves, because without that, it is impossible to love anyone else.

With these 10 attributes, I truly think we can make a difference in how we are perceived. We have to stand strong and stick to these principles of positive male submission, no matter what forbidden fruits may fall into our hands. Only this way will we be able to distance ourselves from the tyranny of horney men and fight to repair our sullied name.

kermy - male submissive
Here's a link to the actual article:
http://www.bbw-submission.org/library/articles/declare.htm

_____________________________

*** Strong and submissive are not contradictions ***
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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/21/2004 6:44:20 AM   
Synocense


Posts: 255
Joined: 8/8/2004
Status: offline 		I am going to take the step out in front of the bus here and share at least one reason why I think people have such a hard time accepting a man who identifies as submissive. My Dad worked for Hughes Aircraft. He went to work every single Monday morning and didn't get home until until 5:15 in the evening. In the meantime, my Momma was taking care of the homestead, including six children, all the errands, the finances, cooking, cleaning, etc. Dad went to the workshop until supper was ready and then at the table we all talked about anything and everything. To me, for the longest time, this is the way I felt it *should* be..it is the Natural Order of things afterall. Momma kept the peace, but when Dad put his foot down, the Earth shook beneath us. Well, they say if you are too open minded, your brains will fall out, but thank goodness I at least had the capability to open it up a creak or two. Since becoming active in the local BDSM club and socialising online with a variety of people, I've learned that the man who needs to submit is not for different reasons than a woman needs to. These men are not weak by any means, in fact, because of the ridicule and because the self acceptance may be harder, they are extremely strong willed. If that will tells them to obey another, so be it. I can't lie and say there are not still times I get the willies when I see a man in public, at a restaurant or at the movies, and his spouse is all but busting his balls and he's just sitting there. I guess thats a different scenerio though. At those times, I admit, I cheer on the underdog! *Gag that wench!* *Make her squeal on her knees like the piglet she is* Ok, i'm sure you get the point. lol

Syn

< Message edited by Synocense -- 9/21/2004 7:44:50 AM >

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Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/25/2004 11:23:30 PM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		I read through the article twice as it provides a deeper meaning than what you pick up on first glance. The problem as I see it, is in the wide variety of interpretations to what D/s or BDSM really entails. Many have labeled themselves submissive when they have found a single fetish that fascinates them, attempting to find a dominant that also would be interested in single note involvment.
It is the wonderful strength of the submissive males mind that truly draws me to a particular sub/slave. The advances in technology have far outstripped our alternative lifestyles ability to cope with the invasion of kinksters. No, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with having a particular fetish or only enjoying one thing or a very few aspects of BDSM. I attempt to be polite but firm when I explain to some who contact me that I want a complete lifestyle, not just a play scenerio.
For me, life is too short to settle for chopsticks, when you can have the whole sonata. A strong, intelligent submissive male is a joy to have around the house. The right side of the slash, IMO is the stronger side. Sundew

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~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/26/2004 10:53:46 AM   
magiqual


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundew02

The problem as I see it, is in the wide variety of interpretations to what D/s or BDSM really entails. Many have labeled themselves submissive when they have found a single fetish that fascinates them, attempting to find a dominant that also would be interested in single note involvment.


Amen to that. So many people pick one the meanings of "submissive" and assume it pertains to all (see the infamous "nine levels of submission" list); those men who focus on a fetish and just want a Domme to serve it up their way (which many Dommes call "being a life support system for a whip") are visible and vocal and set an example that more "evolved" submissives are constantly fighting.

I chose the word "evolved" with some care, as I've seen most submissive men go through that particular activity-focused "submissive frenzy" as they begin their journies into submission. Many who stay the course move into deeper roles and find deeper parts of themselves until their submission becomes more focused on relationships than on fetishes and activities.

I've written one account of what it's like to start that transition from bottoming to submission -- see http://www.bigrock.com/~trance/myhome/discourse/growing.html (though I've never painted an comprehensive picture of my journey since then, just snapshots told in poetry and fiction.)

- "magiqual", a/k/a "elfin"

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/26/2004 6:13:54 PM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		I've read this before. But I'd say 90% is being optimistic. In my experience it's more like 99% and the 1% is being hopeful. I think there is some kind of gender block and men really aren't capable of getting it. At some point they all expect to be served rather serving. Also, I don't think women really want to be served at all. When I think about it, what I really want is to torment and abuse/ seduce male subs. I can wash my own dishes. What I really want is to make him weep with sexual need.

< Message edited by Laura -- 9/26/2004 6:17:45 PM >

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/26/2004 11:46:58 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		strongnsubmissiv,

A lot of what is posted in this note are things that are essential in any submissive, male or female, that I will interact with on a deeper level.

Thank you for sharing it with us.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 9/27/2004 7:47:42 AM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline 		An awesome must read!..

Thank you for sharing it with us.

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 10/1/2004 4:54:16 PM   
randsboy


Posts: 63
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Olympia WA
Status: offline 		as a male slave i have come to realize that there are many tops, and those wo profess to be doms or Masters. And yet i find it very hard to accept many of them as such as so few of them actually have the skills and right attitude to be such.

On the line of so called "self serving", there are those who want to live the fantasy of always being bound or caged with no hope of escape. These are where the self serving are, because in these cases the slave does not serve the Master, but the Master must serve the slave. Hence a self-serving attitude may persist here. These are the ones that give those of us wo know reality of the Master/slave relationship a bad name.

i would further this notion of wnatabe Masters those they claim to be money masters and fel that any who would be subserviant to them must pay for the privilage while the Master sits at his residence on His fat ass doing nothing but living on the slaves income. In otherwords he does have a job and becomes a parasite.

_____________________________

randsboy

always home during the day and willing to play. I do not drive, but could host. color & ethnicity not a problem

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 10/1/2004 5:20:20 PM   
LadyShoshin


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline 		I love this & it is what I look for in a sub. I have a high degree of respect for subs, both male & female, however, I understand there can be a stigma attached to being a male sub. This is why I won't engage in negative name calling to my subs, it is why when they do something wrong, I try to make the punishment fit the crime & not verbally berate them. It is why when they do something nice, I thank them. The male subs I choose to spend time with in my stable and as close long term friends are intelligent, humorous, chivallrous, gentlemanly, strong, protective, polite, creative... I could go on & on. I don't see submission as unmanly and I appreciate the things they do to bring a smile to my face. *Big hugs to the actual lifestyle subs*

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PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 10/1/2004 5:25:13 PM   
magiqual


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: randsboy

as a male slave i have come to realize that there are many tops, and those who profess to be doms or Masters. And yet i find it very hard to accept many of them as such ...


You've listed what you think disqualifies a person from bring a "Master", but what do you think makes for a skilled Master or Dominant? One of the lovely things about the post that started this thread is that it lays out some clear aspects of healthy male submission; if you have a similarly clear idea of what constitutes healthy, skilled dominence, I would love to read it!

(in reply to randsboy)
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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 10/1/2004 7:10:44 PM   
LadyShoshin


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: magiqual
You've listed what you think disqualifies a person from bring a "Master", but what do you think makes for a skilled Master or Dominant? One of the lovely things about the post that started this thread is that it lays out some clear aspects of healthy male submission; if you have a similarly clear idea of what constitutes healthy, skilled dominence, I would love to read it!

Dominance is Your nature, not a game or role, it is what You are. You have come to terms with Your "baggage". To win a submissive, You must first win their trust and this will take time. You are in control of Yourself so that You can safely and successfully be in control of someone else. You give one hundred percent of Yourself and expect no less from a submissive. Integrity is a reflection of your character, fulfilling your promises. You can be firm with definate expectations, yet a consummate lover, a supportive friend and partner.
You discipline wisely, taking time to learn your partner's limits, never demanding the obedience that flows from their wanting to please not the fear of being punished. You understand the line between fantasy and reality, possessing humor, kindness and warmth.
You are romantic enough to be protective and chivalrous, secure enough to laugh at Yourself and the absurdities of life. Courageous enough to accept assistance, open minded enough to learn new things, strong enough to grow. You understand that each partner gains most from pleasuring the other.

< Message edited by LadyShoshin -- 10/1/2004 7:14:05 PM >

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 10/1/2004 10:09:39 PM   
magiqual


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		Wow, wow, wow, LadyShoshin. :)

While I don't primarily identify as a dominant, I'm a confidant and mentor to several people in the local scene. I've been a dom, and am contemplating finding a sub/switch to mentor*, and in that headspace I would add one thing to Your list (as a Dominant speaking to his or her beloved):

When I look at you, I know "there is nothing wrong with you", no matter how you're feeling. In whatever pain you're feeling, I know you have the power to do something to help make it better. These beliefs I hold in trust for you.

OTOH, I have this same faith for my Domme, adding "...and if there is anything in my power to bring You joy, it is Yours."

- magiqual (a/k/a elfin)

* Interestingly, an old friend popped up this week, having just made the switch from slave to Domme. Lunch today felt like the start of a mentorship, helping her make the transition.

< Message edited by magiqual -- 10/1/2004 10:11:20 PM >

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 10/1/2004 10:42:02 PM   
peppermint379


Posts: 111
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline 		When i first began to explore the world of D/s...i was honored to be befriended by a wonderful male sub.

From him i learned what the ideal sub was. From him i learned that although we are different, we have more in common than many would think. Although we did not share the same gender.....we shared many similar needs, wants, and desires to give of ourselves.

When i had questions...he would spend time to give me his point of view. When i was stumbling, he would guide me by asking the right questions to keep my mind focused on those things that were most important. When i made a real break through, he would applaud.

He was my guide to this world. He was the first to share his own knowledge with me. I will always consider him to be a brother....and a brother i hold very dearly to my heart. He is the truest sub i have ever met.

It does not matter to me if a sub is male or female. We know...we share a certain need.....the need to be proud and submissive.....

We all serve to our best ability. We are part of the whole we search to find. I will conclude in saying, that i am a better sub because of him....my dear friend woody.

peppermint

(in reply to strongnsubmissiv)
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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 11/16/2004 4:39:32 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Somehow I missed this message originally. As Ms. Eden says, its Awesome! I'm a sub male myself, and could hardly have said it better.

I'm dismayed as well to find some who don't know me judge me harshly on the basis either of being male or sub-male. Apparently there is work to do.

I believe myself to be deeply principled. This despite the fact that I choose to be happy and have a sense of humor.

Thanks, strongnsubmissiv for sharing Kermy's article.

~smile~

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 11/16/2004 10:21:33 PM   
LadySonelle


Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: randsboy

i would further this notion of wnatabe Masters those they claim to be money masters and feel that any who would be subserviant to them must pay for the privilage while the Master sits at his residence on His fat ass doing nothing but living on the slaves income. In otherwords he does have a job and becomes a parasite.


Ha! Then I think you will be delighted to hear My story! I've mentioned on here several times that I am intersted in finding a financial slave.

Well, I found one! He expressed sincere wishes to pay Me send tribute, etc. As part of the preliminary negitiations (I NEVER Top on the first date!) I asked him what his income was. It was under $500/month!

NOW what? Cut him loose with a scornful laugh? Not likely! He was demonstrating a sincere need to submit and I had a chilly idea of what the next InstaDomme might do to him... We talked budget. He said that he could make about $50/month tribute to Me. I told him he was to take that $50 each month and put it in a separate account. He was to have access to it ONLY with My permission. That it was being held "in trust" as financial tribute, but NOT going to Me and not being used by him.

I told him that this money represents My authority and My love of My slave. That should an emergency arise, he must contact Me (if he can) and beg to use the money. If he needs it immediately, he is to use it and face a punishment later as penalty. Of course I will grant him access to the funds! But the point is that he IS being financially dominated (I have access to the account and can see the figures) but I am not impoverishing him nor am I enriching Myself. In fact, he's costing Me money... But *smile* he's worth it!

He is young and learning. Perhaps some day he will be wealthy enough to repay My work with him. If so, grand! If not, I'm no worse off. But it is My entree into Financial Domination.

In the Contract of Slavery on my page, I specifically promise in the contract that I will not impoverish, take advantage of, or financially embarass or ruin a slave.

Will I ever find a submissive millionaire? Hope springs eternal! But even if I do, I'm NOT quitting My day job. :)

Lady Sonelle

< Message edited by LadySonelle -- 11/16/2004 10:30:49 PM >

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 11/16/2004 10:47:19 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Woderful article, thank you...
Also agree with Sundew, in that I have met a few self proclaimed subs who really aren't submissive (they're more intersted in fullfilling their kinky desire than allowing someone to tell them what to do/how/when to do it...
Ms M

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RE:principles - 7/13/2005 3:35:02 AM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		strongnsubmissiv;


i am going to sound mean and cruel and i am starting to pick a fight.

but i am not. please believe this.
also believe, i have my own definitions of your terms here. some of yours given here are semi adequate, i myself do not follow by what i see here.

take care
the wolf


_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


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RE: RE:principles - 7/14/2005 2:09:03 PM   
strongnsubmissiv


Posts: 197
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

strongnsubmissiv;


i am going to sound mean and cruel and i am starting to pick a fight.

but i am not. please believe this.
also believe, i have my own definitions of your terms here. some of yours given here are semi adequate, i myself do not follow by what i see here.

take care
the wolf




No fight here lonewolf... lol We're all individuals with different takes on the lifestyle. Inspiring thought and discussion is what these forums are all about. Some of us take solace in the words that we find here.

It's not all about wrong and right, in my opinion... more about compatibility i think.

sns

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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 7/14/2005 11:12:56 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		am i just plain stupidly ignorant or did i miss something in that story from the link? it made absolutely NO sense to me.

what was the supposed to be message i was to get from it?

thanks
the wolf


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"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


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RE: Male submissive's declaration of principles - 7/15/2005 3:00:46 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: strongnsubmissiv

Well the problem is that at least 90 percent of all male submissives are not really submissives at all, just horny guys who want to orgasm in a humiliating manner, and once they do they don’t give a damn about anyone but themselves.


I wonder if it could be said that 90% of all male dominants are not really dominants at all, just horny guys who want to orgasm in an (insert description of preference) manner, and once they do they don't give a damn about anyone but themselves?

I would extend that possibility to many dominants who are in perfectly functioning relationships with submissives. I would do that because there is, as far as I see it, a 'get out' for dominants (putting myself in the firing line here!)... in the fact that there is an assumption that a dominant, as long as he's pleasing himself, is doing it RIGHT. If the sub doesn't like what he's doing, how he's dominating her (or not) in the rest of her life, that's ok, because it's deemed to be his style of domination.

Now I'm not meaning here to criticise dominants, particularly What I'm trying to point out is, that perhaps the very same number of males in dominant positions MAY be just as "self-serving", but they're not despised or outed in anywhere near the numbers, or to anything like the extent, as those in submissive roles are.

OK, I hope I've put my suggestion across without insulting anyone or causing any bad feeling .

~ Elektra


< Message edited by ElektraUkM -- 7/15/2005 3:02:53 AM >

(in reply to strongnsubmissiv)
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