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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:20:13 PM   
pahunkboy


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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:26:49 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Edited: For that matter, does the article define "unarmed"? This is very important.


This means they have nothing in their hands that can be used as a weapon... meaning, "unarmed"....


I think it is pretty self explanatory... baseball bats, crowbars, etc, are all weapons...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:28:22 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

And, given that these are the men and women who are supposed to put their lives on the line to protect mine, I'm willing to cut them some slack. It's that or have robot police officers and, frankly, those scare me more.


Doctors are charged with saving lives, how much "slack" are we wanting to cut them

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:29:48 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Edited: For that matter, does the article define "unarmed"? This is very important.


This means they have nothing in their hands that can be used as a weapon... meaning, "unarmed"....


I think it is pretty self explanatory... baseball bats, crowbars, etc, are all weapons...


Hardly self-explantory. I did not see in the article where they defined a weapon for their content.

Julia, I can kill someone with a pencil. It's not usually considered a weapon though. If I went charging someone with it, they should taze me but I could still be considered unarmed.

Even without that, having received my training, I can cause a lot of damage with simply my hands and feet. So if I'm tazed, I was tazered unarmed. Your article didn't say "unjustly tazered" just "tazered unarmed".

Considering eyeballs can be pried out with fingers, I'd rather the cops use the tazer and not risk our law enforcement more than we have to.

_____________________________

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:31:10 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

And, given that these are the men and women who are supposed to put their lives on the line to protect mine, I'm willing to cut them some slack. It's that or have robot police officers and, frankly, those scare me more.


Doctors are charged with saving lives, how much "slack" are we wanting to cut them


*laughs* What you think that was going to make a point with me? I grew up in a medical family. Doctors are human. If you can't handle that they might make a mistake feel free to try to treat yourself on your own.

I've seen way too many hard-working doctors, nurses and other medical staff be sodomized without lube for the smallest crap that won't even matter for that to even have an effect on me. Shit happens. ALL medical proceedures have risks. Take the risk of the proceedure or take the risk of not having it. Your choice.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/10/2010 4:33:48 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:36:17 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Julia, I can kill someone with a pencil. It's not usually considered a weapon though. If I went charging someone with it, they should taze me but I could still be considered unarmed.


I have read some wild tazing stories... like an elderly woman in bed, etc... I could post a myriad of examples, if you like....

I think that if you taze someone that has a pencil that they are trying to kill you with, and you can't handle that with a baton, etc, you should train for a new line of work

I would rather be hit with a baton than electrocuted, it not only can be fatal, it changes your brain waves, etc... here is an article from the APA


http://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/06/stun-guns.aspx

New research finds that stun guns—also known as Tasers and used by two-thirds of the nation's law enforcement agencies—may impair people's cognitive functioning.
In a study of 62 police officers, researchers at Rosalind Franklin University of Medical Science in Chicago and the University of Illinois found that police officers who had been "tased" during training drills fared worse than a control group in attention, processing speed and memory. The results, though preliminary, suggest that law enforcement agencies should reconsider their use of Tasers in training exercises and that researchers need to further investigate the potential long-term effects, says study co-author Neil Pliskin, PhD, a University of Illinois psychology professor.
"It's a provocative finding because the kinds of difficulties that were observed ... are the same kinds of changes we see in people who have suffered electrical shocks from accidents involving domestic power sources," Pliskin says.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:42:21 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

*laughs* What you think that was going to make a point with me? I grew up in a medical family. Doctors are human. If you can't handle that they might make a mistake feel free to try to treat yourself on your own.


I think I am making the point that in some professions that we allow less slack than in other professions. I do not get too upset, for example, if my waitress screws up my order, on the other hand, if my doc removes the wrong organ, I am likely to demand his head on a platter....



Now maybe you are more forgiving of medical professionals that make really bad mistakes, me not so much

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:43:55 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have read some wild tazing stories... like an elderly woman in bed, etc... I could post a myriad of examples, if you like....

And whadda know, I can post some amazing stories of people using BDSM as an excuse to abuse and kill each other!
quote:


I think that if you taze someone that has a pencil that they are trying to kill you with, and you can't handle that with a baton, etc, you should train for a new line of work

Wow. Do me a favor and never get into a fight ok? I don't want to see you in ER. You clearly have no idea what a skilled or determined fighter is capable of.
quote:


I would rather be hit with a baton than electrocuted, it not only can be fatal, it changes your brain waves, etc... here is an article from the APA

Are you familiar with the phrase "beaten to death"? Or what blunt trauma does to the human body?

It's like you are saying "oh here, this type of posion smells bad so we got you a new kind with a lavender scent!".

When cops have to use this, it's a bad situation. People are going to get hurt. That is bottom line. It's not good. Is it possible that we should be spending out time trying to figure out how avoid these situations so that nobody gets hurt instead of encouraging police officers to take bantons to citizans?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:47:07 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

*laughs* What you think that was going to make a point with me? I grew up in a medical family. Doctors are human. If you can't handle that they might make a mistake feel free to try to treat yourself on your own.


I think I am making the point that in some professions that we allow less slack than in other professions. I do not get too upset, for example, if my waitress screws up my order, on the other hand, if my doc removes the wrong organ, I am likely to demand his head on a platter....



Now maybe you are more forgiving of medical professionals that make really bad mistakes, me not so much


Oh yes, because removing the wrong organ is COMPLETELY the same as a cop tazing some guy who is charging him even though he's unarmed - and you've still failed to show that the stat you quote was "unarmed and not dangerous" as opposed to "unarmed and willing to strangle someone".

You have no idea what those people were capable of do you? You don't know if they were professional wrestlers or couch potatos. Unarmed is hardly non-lethal. People are very good at killing each other with bare hands.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:48:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Do me a favor and never get into a fight ok?


I have been in fist fights, with men no less...

quote:

Are you familiar with the phrase "beaten to death"? Or what blunt trauma does to the human body?


If a cop beats someone to death, he used unreasonable force. if he tazes someone he has no control over what happens to that person. I am actually saying I trust a cop with something he has the control over the outcome with (a baton), but dislike that he/she has no control over the outcome of a tazer gun....So I am basically arguing I trust cops more than you do (which my brother in law is a peace officer, and is very well trained with his baton)...






_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:50:43 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Do me a favor and never get into a fight ok?


I have been in fist fights, with men no less...

quote:

Are you familiar with the phrase "beaten to death"? Or what blunt trauma does to the human body?


If a cop beats someone to death, he used unreasonable force. if he tazes someone he has no control over what happens to that person. I am actually saying I trust a cop with something he has the control over the outcome with (a baton), but dislike that he/she has no control over the outcome of a tazer gun....So I am basically arguing I trust cops more than you do (which my brother in law is a peace officer, and is very well trained with his baton)...



Putting words in my mouth? Naughty.

I trust cops with tazers, batons and guns. You seem to be arguing that it's safer to not trust with tazers but with batons and guns. How strange. You see, I'd rather keep them at a safe distence and away from the fight than have then get within the range of striking distence.

Edited to add: Random medical fact - the idea that he has control over what the baton causes is delusional. Various medical conditions, that people may not even know they have, can cause all sorts of fun and serious complications and even death when struck with blunt force!

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/10/2010 4:52:30 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:50:43 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Oh yes, because removing the wrong organ is COMPLETELY the same as a cop tazing some guy who is charging him even though he's unarmed - and you've still failed to show that the stat you quote was "unarmed and not dangerous" as opposed to "unarmed and willing to strangle someone".


The article is what the article is, I cannot go and interview all the people involved in the incidences involved... so lets say it is only 50% of those who were COMPLETELY unarmed... that is still highly unacceptable..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:54:24 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Putting words in my mouth? Naughty.

I trust cops with tazers, batons and guns. You seem to arguing that it's safer to not trust with tazers but with batons and guns. How strange. You see, I'd rather keep them at a safe distence and away from the fight than have then get within the range of striking distence.


I think that from what I have heard this "safe distance" encourages them to rely more on tazers than they should. I think this is obviously a TRAINING issue, as well as a problem with the individuals who have used them. I am arguing that they are used INAPPROPRIATELY, and much too often, which they are only now starting to understand can have permanent repercussions from a cognitive perspective on those who have been tazered. I think this needs to be studied before we just go around randomly tazering people first and asking questions later. I would think that people who were humane and caring would not support such measures against the general population, many of whom may have done no wrong and have had no trial or charged with any sort of crime


This is my opinion....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 4:56:23 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:


The article is what the article is, I cannot go and interview all the people involved in the incidences involved... so lets say it is only 50% of those who were COMPLETELY unarmed...
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Oh yes, because removing the wrong organ is COMPLETELY the same as a cop tazing some guy who is charging him even though he's unarmed - and you've still failed to show that the stat you quote was "unarmed and not dangerous" as opposed to "unarmed and willing to strangle someone".


The article is what the article is, I cannot go and interview all the people involved in the incidences involved... so lets say it is only 50% of those who were COMPLETELY unarmed... that is still highly unacceptable..


Oh please, you know I'm not going to accept your made up stats. I need evidence.

How about we say it's two percent? Or 100? Or .5?

Without actual evidence and knowing what we are talking about, this is meaningless rage.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 5:00:36 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Oh please, you know I'm not going to accept your made up stats. I need evidence.

How about we say it's two percent? Or 100? Or .5?

Without actual evidence and knowing what we are talking about, this is meaningless rage.


Then you do not want to discuss it with me, I accept that, and will move on to people who do. I told you I do not know their criteria for "unarmed"... to me being tazed for having a pencil is not acceptable. But you seem to make up your own criteria for debate when it suits you..

I take "unarmed" at face value, now you can imagine all sorts of weapons, from pencils, to curling irons... knock yourself out!




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 5:01:28 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Wow, Julia. Word of the thread has to be "disingenuous." I hope you aren't this blatant about it when you go out to do your "research" on other Americans you have contempt for. Did you by chance see the episode of Top Gear where they paint phrases on their cars before pulling into little towns in the US south?



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 5:06:08 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Wow, Julia. Word of the thread has to be "disingenuous." I hope you aren't this blatant about it when you go out to do your "research" on other Americans you have contempt for. Did you by chance see the episode of Top Gear where they paint phrases on their cars before pulling into little towns in the US south?




I do not understand this post, if you mean that I dislike people dying from tazing, having their brains jolted, and I think it is a bad law enforcement method? Yes. If you think this makes me anti cop, no, you would be dead wrong. You see Rich, I am a big backer of the Peace Officers Union of California... I support them politically, etc... whereas you have argued we should bust correctional officers down to minimum wage...

Cops do a dangerous job, I appreciate it, and I respect law enforcement...

You, on the other hand, want to set their wages back decades

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 5:18:45 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Sadly, the Taser I bought for use around the home quit working. Now I'll have to get another one... 


Be sure to test the new one on yourself first.

How else to make sure it works properly?

You wouldn't want some big, scary men breaking into your house intent on performing unspeakable acts on you and find your Taser isn't working.

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 5:21:31 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Oh please, you know I'm not going to accept your made up stats. I need evidence.

How about we say it's two percent? Or 100? Or .5?

Without actual evidence and knowing what we are talking about, this is meaningless rage.


Then you do not want to discuss it with me, I accept that, and will move on to people who do. I told you I do not know their criteria for "unarmed"... to me being tazed for having a pencil is not acceptable. But you seem to make up your own criteria for debate when it suits you..

I take "unarmed" at face value, now you can imagine all sorts of weapons, from pencils, to curling irons... knock yourself out!





I'll stick to reality, where non-traditional weapons can actually kill people.

C'on Julia, you know people twist stats to suit themselves. Doesn't it bother to not know what they are actually talking about?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Tazers - 7/10/2010 5:24:42 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		You know perfectly well what it means, Julia. As for your attempt that follows to change the subject, you are mischaracterizing badly. I want their gold-plated, six-figure publicly paid pensions chopped down, and I think we should radically restructure where a lot of our police and prison staffing comes from, but what you claim is just a stupid lie.

And if you are trying to link me to an endorsement of das governator's minimum wage for state employees until we get a budget, ploy, nobody with a clue about how that actually pans out would try to go there.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 40
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