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A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 10:28:12 AM

vincentML

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Ann Coulter wonders about this in her column defending Michael Steele against attacks from other Republicans. Steele, you might remember, said out loud that Afghanistan is a “war of Obama’s choosing.” http://www.anncoulter.com

In defending Steele, Coulter says: “I thought the irreducible requirements of Republicanism were being for life, small government and a strong national defense, but I guess permanent war is on the platter now, too.”

It is hard to find an extended period in American history when we were not at war with someone or when we did not have troops stationed on foreign soil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_history_events

According to this report in 2004 the United States had troops stationed in 135 foreign countries. http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html

My impression is that the United States has been engaged in an economic imperialist and interventionist policy since the end of the Second World War, not always without provocation however.

Here is candidate GW Bush speaking out against nation-building and interventionist foreign policy in 2000 when he advocated a humbler, less arrogant foreign policy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SOVzMV2bc

Do Steele and Coulter have it right? Has Obama made a terrible mistake with his Afghanistan policy?

I think the mood of the country (but not of our Pols) favors a more isolationist policy. But that genii may be out of the bottle for good. Our military expenditures accounted fo 43% of the World’s military spending in 2009.

The United States has been in an expansionist mode since land surveyors first glimpsed the west side of the Appalachian Mountains. The question now is: “Wither Empire?”

For how long can we be protectionist for our allies, and interventionist around the globe while our resources are being squandered and our young men and women are being killed?

Is it time to pack up the old kit bag and come home to tend to our own garden? Will a competitive world permit it? Are we delusional in thinking our allies desire us to remain in this role? Are we victimized by the political madness of American Exceptionalism? What?

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 10:41:02 AM

DCWoody

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When discussing on another forum how relatively peaceful the modern world is, it occured to me that for him (an american) maybe it doesn't seem so. Of the 5 big conflicts going on atm (sudan, somalia, afghanistan, iraq, pakistan)...only sudan hasn't involved the us. Some sort of restraint may be worth trying.

As for "For how long can we be protectionist for our allies....Are we delusional in thinking our allies desire us to remain in this role?"

I don't think you're in that role in the first place. When was the last time...when was any time...the us went to war to protect its allies? Only happens via NATO peacekeeping that I can recall.

I wouldn't worry too much about how many different nations you have troops in, most of that'll be normal friendly UN/NATO stuff. Don't know how many countries have British troops in them right now, but doesn't mean anything much (hell, we're still in Germany).

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 10:45:32 AM

pahunkboy

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What a good post.

War is the order of the day.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 10:50:17 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
According to this report in 2004 the United States had troops stationed in 135 foreign countries. http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html

This is a bogus statistic. Our sole military presence in most of those countries is the military and naval attaches at our embassies along with the Marines who guard those embassies.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:06:52 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
According to this report in 2004 the United States had troops stationed in 135 foreign countries. http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html

This is a bogus statistic. Our sole military presence in most of those countries is the military and naval attaches at our embassies along with the Marines who guard those embassies.

Sheesh! I hope you're right. What you say seems reasonable. Thanks for the correction. But 15,000 in Okinawa and 30,000 in South Korea?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/11/2010 11:07:49 AM >

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:09:16 AM

DarkSteven

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Coulter says: “I thought the irreducible requirements of Republicanism were being for life, small government and a strong national defense, but I guess permanent war is on the platter now, too.”

WTF? Both Reagan and bush expanded the government, while cutting taxes. And W was in office during the worst act of terrorism in our history, and the most famous botched response to a natural dissater. I suspect that Coulter meant by "being for" was lip service, not actual acts.

However, I will go along that after Vietnam any Republican President stupid enough to begin a war with no idea how to win it will earn the GOP the party of neverending war as well.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:22:10 AM

vincentML

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quote:

I don't think you're in that role in the first place. When was the last time...when was any time...the us went to war to protect its allies? Only happens via NATO peacekeeping that I can recall.

That's what our Pols tell us and what the military spending seems to confirm we think we are doing. Would be grand to be free of that delusion as well.

Btw, in answer to your direct question: Korea, Vietnam (the dominoes would fall), and Iraq I (Kuwait) Additionally, we hold a nuclear umbrella over Japan. Might also like to know why we were bombing Serbia? And hasn't our Secretary of State just commited us to Georgia? I guess it depends upon what your definition of an ally is.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:34:59 AM

DCWoody

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Iraq I, good answer, I stand corrected. Not so sure about the others, but it's a matter of perspective I guess.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:44:40 AM

popeye1250

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Vincent, yeah, look at S. Korea, we've had a substantial Troop presence there for close to 60 years now!
When are they (we) going to bring those Troops home? And there's no reason to have Troops in 135 countries!
That's tremendously expensive!
The U.S. Taxpayer is footing the bill for the protection of foreign countries and has been for a long time! How are we supposed to be "competitive" with a "nut" like that? The answer is, we can't.
NATO should have been dissolved right after the old Soviet Union collapsed. We're getting the same thing there that we're getting with the "U.N.", tens of thousands of* highly paid* buearocrats sitting in offices sharpening pencils and comming up with new "titles" for themselves! "The assistant (low) commissioner of blankety blank resources, minerals, logistics, manpower, and land forces (but not naval forces) to the (medium) (higher) commissioner and liason to the (highest) blankety blank commissioner (excluding the lesser Antilles). And there's ((tens of thousands of them)) like that! There's probably 50-60 buearocrats for every (one) soldier.
That's the shit we're paying for! Does anyone know how much being in NATO costs the U.S. each year?
Yahoo did an article about a month ago about the 1,700 people in the Dept of Transportation who were making "in excess of $170 k per year."
And people say there's no room for cuts in the federal govt? Does anyone even (know) how many people are in the State Dept? (They) have people in 195 or so countries that we don't need to be doing.
And when you ask congressmen and senators why we still have Troops in S. Korea they say we have "interests" there. Oh really? I don't know one person who has any "interests" in S. Korea. But now we hear that Bush 3 wants to have "free trade" with S. Korea and,....."Colombia."
More jobs going overseas for sure! And a lot more drugs comming into the U.S. from Colombia!
And yes, I think you're right, the U.S. has been involved in interventionist policies and that needs to stop.
And we have interventionists on the left and on the right. One group wants to kill 'em the other group wants to feed 'em! I don't want to do either.
I think the main problem is that there are too many people and cos. and orgs. behind the scenes making too much money off of all this!
Just look at the proliferation of "Lobbyists" in Washington in the last ten years!
A third world country will hire a "lobbying" firm (on a "contingiency basis) and whatever they can get out of our congress the lobbying firm gets 20%!!!
It's no wonder that congressmen and senators all want to be "lobbyists!"
Gula Gula land gets $500 m of the Taxpayer's dollars and "Frisbee, Schmuck, and Armey" get a cool $100 m out of that! But,..... that's not "corruption!"

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:45:04 AM

vincentML

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Oh and Btw, is NATO still essential or cannot the EU defend itself?

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:49:17 AM

vincentML

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quote:

NATO should have been dissolved right after the old Soviet Union collapsed.

Worth a hard look, I think, Popeye.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:56:11 AM

DCWoody

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I would say defend itself from what exactly? The only real threat to European nations since the mongols has been other European nations. I'm not sure I get the rest of your question either....NATO is europe + the US&Canada.

fast answer:watching footie :)

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 11:58:35 AM

TheHeretic

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Shouldn't you have mentioned she is an evil conservative bitch who just says things to get people riled up and make money, Vince?

Plus, she has an Adam's Apple, so we all know she's really a man, anyway.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 12:17:36 PM

JstAnotherSub

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I think we are a planet of perpetual war.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 12:20:19 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

When was the last time...when was any time...the us went to war to protect its allies?

Since WWII, we mainly seem to be fighting first and trying to get others to join.

Here's the thing, though--many PTB want to convince us that perpetual war is necessary, that it's good for business, that we are in hideous danger if we slacken, and it's all for THEIR benefit, not the nation--plenty of nations prosper without this model.

So did we in the 90s (though of course it's not as simple as just that, granted).

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/11/2010 12:23:55 PM >

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 12:21:14 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Shouldn't you have mentioned she is an evil conservative bitch who just says things to get people riled up and make money, Vince?

Plus, she has an Adam's Apple, so we all know she's really a man, anyway.

Heretic, I think Miss Ann is entertaining. And, because people like "Rulemylife", "slavemike", "Owner 59", and others in here get really angry and bullshit anytime someone brings her name up! lol See? "Entertaining!"
What do you think, I bet secretly, deep down inside "Rulemylife" would love to be under Ann's control for a day or so!
"O.k. mr rulemylife, how's about an evening of bondage and FOX T.V.!!!"
"Oh look, Bill O'Reilly's on next!"
"MFFTVFGGTTTT!!!!!!!

_____________________________

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 1:15:54 PM

TheHeretic

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You think so? I'd say Sarah Palin is the one who massively turns them on. She even gets used as an avatar (presumably answering her subbie's question about coming out of chastity).

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 1:37:43 PM

Sanity

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Reagan brilliantly tilted government away from its unconstitutional nanny government role and towards its more legitimate role in national defense which ultimately brought the USSR to its knees. Which that in turn set the stage for the liberation of the Soviet satellite states that were being held hostage and enabled the subsequent reduction in military spending by Bush I and Bill Clinton, helping to keep taxes lower and thereby lift the economy for years to come.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Coulter says: “I thought the irreducible requirements of Republicanism were being for life, small government and a strong national defense, but I guess permanent war is on the platter now, too.”

WTF? Both Reagan and bush expanded the government, while cutting taxes. And W was in office during the worst act of terrorism in our history, and the most famous botched response to a natural dissater. I suspect that Coulter meant by "being for" was lip service, not actual acts.

However, I will go along that after Vietnam any Republican President stupid enough to begin a war with no idea how to win it will earn the GOP the party of neverending war as well.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 1:38:46 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
What do you think, I bet secretly, deep down inside "Rulemylife" would love to be under Ann's control for a day or so!

He could probably find a better looking drag queen to be topped by if that's what he's into.

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RE: A Nation of Perpetual War? - 7/11/2010 1:40:15 PM

Musicmystery

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And all he had to do was first quadruple the national debt, crash the stock market, bail out the Savings & Loan scandal and leave Bush I with double digit unemployment.

Yeah. Great economic strategy.

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