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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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#1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom.

You can see it anyway you like, the fact is that I can remember as a child when i did something wrong wanting to be punished for it... my mom said sometimes a spanking cleared the air (although I was not punished this way). Now punishment may provide catharsis, but it is still punishment....

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#2) funishment, not the same thing

Again sometimes people have relationships we do not understand, and to them they get off on punishment that is not role playing... is this healthy? Well, it wouldn't be for me, but hey, just because it isn't my kink does not make it wrong

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#3) the easy road is not always, or even usually the best way to deal with things. Relationships take work, there are no short cuts.

Notice I said it "seems" to be the easiest way, I did not say it was

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

How, in any way shape of form, is spanking a natural consiquence for anything... Punishment and consequenses are NOT the same thing.

A Consequence for lying is that people don't trust you and do not want to have relationships with you. This is natural and what one would understand is a direct result of their actions.

A spanking... well that is something added, a punisher.

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I live in a widely diverse household. I don't use punishment dynamics in -my- interactions, but there are several other Keepers in House Bladewing who -do- use them, and, at least from intimate observation of living in the situation, they don't seem to have any more difficulty in managing our servants than I do, without a punishment dynamic. It is true that some of our servants respond better to punishment than others, and it is also true that some of our servants develop brief attitude issues when punished, but that does not change the fact that, while the OP dismissed it as irrelevant, some dynamics just -work- with punishment involved, and that, for some people, it's an important and value-added feature of being in an authority-based dynamic. For others (like, say, myself) it is anathema, but honestly, we've had some servants who struggled under my "discipline, structure, re-educate, and nurture" model who -thrived- and finally "got it" under Ebony's "beating and no supper" model. Go figure.

Calla

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ORIGINAL: KariCloud

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

How, in any way shape of form, is spanking a natural consiquence for anything... Punishment and consequenses are NOT the same thing.

A Consequence for lying is that people don't trust you and do not want to have relationships with you. This is natural and what one would understand is a direct result of their actions.

A spanking... well that is something added, a punisher.

There are a whole lot of consequences. The one you mentioned is no more natural than a spanking. People choose to trust and believe you or not, there is nothing "natural" about it, it is people-driven, deliberate, chosen, doesn't happen in nature or without people making it happen.

Consequence is something that happens as a direct result of one's actions. Let's take a concrete example. My lady Owner doesn't like me biting her fingers. Her usual punishment for first infractions is a fairly light spanking. I bit her fingers when she was petting me, and she spanked me right then. Her spanking me was a punishment, and it was in direct consequence to my action of biting her fingers. It is not "natural", in terms of it happening without someone deliberately doing something. But it is a consequence of my actions.

Let's take a non-D/s example. I steal something from a store and get caught. The punishment is usually a fine, or possibly jail time and community service work. The punishment is in direct relation, and a consequence of, my action of shoplifting. Fines, jail time, and community service aren't natural. They don't happen in nature, on their own. Consequences aren't all natural. In a human society, there are a lot of people-drive, or society-driven consequences to one's actions.

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I don't know if you are defining punishment as I am... There are many labels in this community that are up for interpretaion but punishment as a very real meaning... if it is 'punishment' for catharsis then it isnt really punishment... again this is how I see it due to my own education on the matter. They can call what they do punishment that doesnt make it so

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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I don't know if you are defining punishment as I am... There are many labels in this community that are up for interpretaion but punishment as a very real meaning... if it is 'punishment' for catharsis then it isnt really punishment... again this is how I see it due to my own education on the matter. They can call what they do punishment that doesnt make it so

This is my definition of "punishment". Someone does something out of line or wrong, and they are punished for it. You speed get caught you are punished with a fine. If you keep out library books too long, you get punished with a fine. You kill someone, you get put in prison. You lie to your parents, you get punished for that...

I know someone who went out drinking with his best friend. He got into an accident while drunk and his best friend died. He was locked up for 3 years over that. He told me he deserved it, and the time he served would never be enough to give penance for his crime... was his prison time catharsis?

I really have no idea how psychological people define punishment. I define it as paying the price for doing something wrong. It is more than just the direct result of your action (such as being deprived of your best friend because you were drinking and driving), it is something assigned to you by someone else...

For example, I went behind my mom's back and did something I was not supposed to. Every day I felt like we had a "lie" between us, it tied me up in knots. I went to my mom and admitted what I had done and "told" on myself for it. She grounded me for a week, but she didn't want to even do that, she did it because she knew I needed to feel the balance was right between us. Is it different just because I accepted the punishment as my just due? I don't think it really is.

Now you can post all sorts of theories on punishment, but the fact remains, I have a distinct definition for it that isn't within the APA guidelines, but is built by my experiences as someone who was punished as a kid sometimes, and someone that punished my own kid sometimes

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
I am sorry, I am using clinical deffinitions here. I think that is where the mix up is coming in.

I do understand what you are saying though.

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

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ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

I don't think punishment in and of itself is a good to to correct either. I also don't beleive that most people in this dynamic believe that either. Some may call it correction, but I bet you would probably be hard pressed to find a sub who says they obey and follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment. Most obey because they want to please their Dom/me. Punishement in many relationships are used as a consequence rather than a correction.

While some subs may feel the need to be punished within the dynamics of a D/s relationship, I doubt if most feel a need to be punished as a free thinking adult. And let's remember that a dominant can only punish if a sub has agreed to that dynamic. Most subs who agree to it do so because they think it helps them. If they believe it is helpful to them....maybe it is.

Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction.

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What you described IS punishment... I am not arguing the acts here I am arguing the motives. Motivation makes a HUGE differece, as far I am conserned.

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

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ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

I don't think punishment in and of itself is a good to to correct either. I also don't beleive that most people in this dynamic believe that either. Some may call it correction, but I bet you would probably be hard pressed to find a sub who says they obey and follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment. Most obey because they want to please their Dom/me. Punishement in many relationships are used as a consequence rather than a correction.

While some subs may feel the need to be punished within the dynamics of a D/s relationship, I doubt if most feel a need to be punished as a free thinking adult. And let's remember that a dominant can only punish if a sub has agreed to that dynamic. Most subs who agree to it do so because they think it helps them. If they believe it is helpful to them....maybe it is.

Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction.

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

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ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
You see, this is very interesting. I have experience with training both humans and dogs, and I can attest to both being fairly responsive to *negative reinforcement, if it's delivered rationally and consistently for a specific unwanted behavior.

You make interesting arguments here, however I wanted to point out... and sorry for being nitpicky, but you have your terminology wrong here. Negative reinforcement and punishment is not the same thing.

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
As far as the shock collars on the dogs... I really hope I dont need to point at that humans are not dogs. the psychology, though not entirely alien, is nowhere near the same as humans, and I dont completely buy that the shocking does more than scare the dog and condition them with fear not to do whatever it is you dont want them to do. You are far better off, when training a dog to offer the dog a treat for doing what it is you want instead of shocking them for doing what it is you do not want.

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
Negative reinforcement is taking away a non desired activity in way of reinforcing a behavior...

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I questoined HOW they worked.

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#1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom.

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Now, I know there are many subs on here that have said they are punished infrequently and when they are they never repeat this infraction. These subs, I have found, are usually the ones that have the intrinsic need to behave already within them. They will not repeat the infraction, not because their Dom spanked them, or ignored them, but because deep down they know they did wrong and feel awful. These subs probably never needed to be punished in the first place for they were already kicking themselves in the ass, and probably never would have repeated the infraction, regardless of being punished or not.

So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one?

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ORIGINAL: Icarys
Regardless of what she got out of it afterward or because of..It is still the punishment that was the catalyst. Therefore, in this case it was a positive.

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ORIGINAL: littlewonder


If he didn't punish me I would start to feel as if he no longer cared about me and about what I do.