quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

this is where alot of submissives come from with regard to punishment.  its a sign to them that they are cared about and the relationship is valuable to their Dominant.

quote:

i think the question really is, how much is punishment driven by the subs needs for parameters and security reassurance.

quote:

if it was merely a case of catharsis the sub could, presumably approach their Dominant and ask for catharsis - if a confession is necessary and catharsis required then to ask for a spanking or some priviledge removed would serve just as well.

quote:

it is the action of punishment and its whole delivery that works for some dynamics.  the Dominant has the control and the option to make that call and the submissive can surrender herself to this action, knowing she is loved and being taken care of in a demonstrative way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

What you described IS punishment... I am not arguing the acts here I am arguing the motives. Motivation makes a HUGE differece, as far I am conserned.

Okay... hypothetical situation...

A submissive is ordered to quit smoking because she has been diagnosed with asthma. She has been trying, but on day three she slips and smokes a cigarette. She says nothing because she promises herself it will not happen again and she does not want to worry and upset her dom. So another day passes, and she slips again, and then the next day a couple of more times. Now she has officially crossed over from one teeny slip she hid to having the lie between them that she has in fact quit.

So... she tearfully confesses, and her dominant is disappointed and shaken in his belief in her. He tells her he needs to think about it. She writes him a letter that she will do anything to make it right. So he comes back and he says "For every day that you lied you must volunteer at a hospice for those suffering from diseases caused by smoking." This will cause her to lose 4 weekends, meaning she will not have a day off for a month..

He also says that if she does not quit he must release her...

Is this punishment?

quote:

Yes

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
You see, this is very interesting. I have experience with training both humans and dogs, and I can attest to both being fairly responsive to *negative reinforcement, if it's delivered rationally and consistently for a specific unwanted behavior.

You make interesting arguments here, however I wanted to point out... and sorry for being nitpicky, but you have your terminology wrong here. Negative reinforcement and punishment is not the same thing.

That's a fair point, Ms. I used the term interchangeably with "punishment", and edited the error. I do hope the greater gist of my reply about the duality of intent in both sides of the dynamic made some sense, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
As far as the shock collars on the dogs... I really hope I dont need to point at that humans are not dogs. the psychology, though not entirely alien, is nowhere near the same as humans, and I dont completely buy that the shocking does more than scare the dog and condition them with fear not to do whatever it is you dont want them to do. You are far better off, when training a dog to offer the dog a treat for doing what it is you want instead of shocking them for doing what it is you do not want.

The objective wasn't to compare humans to dogs for similarity, but offer two differing examples that respond to punishment well. I introduced dogs due to the shock collar mythology that claims their employment to be useless as behavior modification tools, often using arguments similar to yours (punishment doesn't work, reward is better). Don't get me wrong; I have found rewarding the canine variety with treats works wonderfully. Unfortunately, this method is not always applicable in all situations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
Negative reinforcement is taking away a non desired activity in way of reinforcing a behavior...

Out of morbid curiosity, what do you think about this method of training as well? I spoke of both punishment and negative reinforcement due to the assumption you would prefer neither. For instance, wouldn't you feel insulted by the apparent manipulation involved in your example of negative reinforcement? If negative reinforcement sits well with you, but punishment doesn't, could you explain why?

1. Disobedience.
   
2. Direct abuse or rudeness.
   
3. Violence(Against people or property of Bruin Cottage. Attempting to come between Lady Neets and myself).
   
4. Laziness. Laxity in carrying out the duties assigned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
Rienforcment is a possative action punishment is negative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one?

1. punishment may be something the submissive needs for her own inner psychological balance.... clears the air, gives her a chance for "penance" etc.

2. It is for fun sometimes

3. It seems the easiest way to deal with a problem


Punishment is something i do not need

#1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom.

#2) funishment, not the same thing

#3) the easy road is not always, or even usually the best way to deal with things. Relationships take work, there are no short cuts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

this is where alot of submissives come from with regard to punishment.  its a sign to them that they are cared about and the relationship is valuable to their Dominant.

lally,

I agree with you on that. I've heard it echoed before but I don't feel that way. I look at it as cause and effect. It has nothing to do with emotions in my mind. The result is predicated by the perceived offense.

nods*  - the thing is that in all of my relationships with men, going all the way back to being a kid they were all capable and at times perfectly willing to punish me.  as a child i had no choice, as an adult i had a choice and i left three abusive relationships because under the terms of punishment it had nothing to do with them caring about me and everything to do with lashing out impotently.  here there is or atleast there should be no lashing out, it is done in a caring way and it is a reinforcement of their continued value of you and of their authority over you.  its a language i understand.  i may not want it, but i understand it.

quote:

i think the question really is, how much is punishment driven by the subs needs for parameters and security reassurance.

I can think of better ways to spend my time. In the end it means for whatever reason I made a choice that didn't coincide with his preferences and that must be communicated and realigned. Perhaps verbalizing that isn't enough for some. I can say that I don't derive any enjoyment from it or question his regard for me if he elects to use different methods for modification.

i agree - but ill admit in the earlier years of this that was my need in a way.  i had no parameters of my own to be honest.  i was one free falling, spinning hell-cat. parameters were what i needed to feel secure, needed, wanted and safe.  since then ive been taught about parameters and how to control that element in me and now it is far more as you describe up there.  cause and effect, but now at least i try hard to keep to within the parameters i sense are necessary from my Dominant

quote:

if it was merely a case of catharsis the sub could, presumably approach their Dominant and ask for catharsis - if a confession is necessary and catharsis required then to ask for a spanking or some priviledge removed would serve just as well.

When I initially read that I had to take a moment to consider my response and if the corrective measures were cathartic in any way. I believe they allowed me to take responsibility and be accountable for my actions. I think it provides an opportunity for retooling by the dominant. However it isn't catharsis, but definitely a reshaping of sorts.

the one and only really hefty beating ive ever taken as punishment was cathartic in the end.  He had dealt with the situation, i had surrendered myself to it and it was over and done with.
 
the odd thing is that we dont think twice about taking a hefty beating any other time, but the moment people add the punishment undertone to the whole thing, suddenly we are in a negative situation.  you could argue that taking a beating and needing that beating is a negative reinforcement of our 'needs'.  wouldnt it be better to take up origamy or knitting  - its the same thing in many ways, the Dominant is dominating us physically and often in a way that we have to process internally to get through.  all that physical punishment is doing is turning that activity around to a different focus.  it is taking the action and using it for other things other than fun.

quote:

it is the action of punishment and its whole delivery that works for some dynamics.  the Dominant has the control and the option to make that call and the submissive can surrender herself to this action, knowing she is loved and being taken care of in a demonstrative way.

Punishment that fails to understand the behavior that requires modification hasn't addressed the problem in my mind. Identifying the situations, feelings, or mental associations that encourage me to act in opposition to what he prefers is what I focus on. If we never get there we've merely affixed a band-aid instead. I'm interested in eradication, not compliance or replication.

i agree totally, well i agree with youre post completely.

~porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

nods*  - the thing is that in all of my relationships with men, going all the way back to being a kid they were all capable and at times perfectly willing to punish me.  as a child i had no choice, as an adult i had a choice and i left three abusive relationships because under the terms of punishment it had nothing to do with them caring about me and everything to do with lashing out impotently.  here there is or atleast there should be no lashing out, it is done in a caring way and it is a reinforcement of their continued value of you and of their authority over you.  its a language i understand.  i may not want it, but i understand it.

quote:

i agree - but ill admit in the earlier years of this that was my need in a way.  i had no parameters of my own to be honest.  i was one free falling, spinning hell-cat. parameters were what i needed to feel secure, needed, wanted and safe.  since then ive been taught about parameters and how to control that element in me and now it is far more as you describe up there.  cause and effect, but now at least i try hard to keep to within the parameters i sense are necessary from my Dominant

quote:

the odd thing is that we dont think twice about taking a hefty beating any other time, but the moment people add the punishment undertone to the whole thing, suddenly we are in a negative situation.

quote:

you could argue that taking a beating and needing that beating is a negative reinforcement of our 'needs'.  wouldnt it be better to take up origamy or knitting  - its the same thing in many ways, the Dominant is dominating us physically and often in a way that we have to process internally to get through.  all that physical punishment is doing is turning that activity around to a different focus.  it is taking the action and using it for other things other than fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
Rienforcment is a possative action punishment is negative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
We all rienforce each other on a certain level without even knowing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
Its appears that there has been a crusade on the boards to bash these "awful relationships" where one consenting adult punishes another consenting adult. I am sure this is not the last thread we will have that follows this trend. I think many of us into punishment are getting a bit tired of this free for all attempt to bash our choices in how we conduct our relationships.

Its weird- who would have ever thought that punishment would be seen as a odd thing that needed justification on a BDSM website?

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

ive picked out bits from youre post, but it was all worth reading through a couple of times

My commitment is to fulfilling relationships where both parties are invested. It must be healthy and he has to meet the criteria for mastering me. I think a lot of this takes care of itself when you put the right person in that position.

. In the strangest way our similarity is the parameter. On my side he understands that I choose not to steamroll him because I enjoy deference instead. It isn't because he's a mystical aura that intimidates. Recognizing the nuances that we each present often eradicates subjects like these. A lot of it is simplified.

absolutely! - its the subtleties i pick up on now.  i find myself hearing things that i didnt hear before.  i feel myself bending to a gentle voice and im compelled to listen and follow.  there is no compulsion to kick the traces or fight, simply to follow His flow.
 
i can speak only for myself here - but often a punishment occurred because i pushed for it.  i wanted to test his resolve and Dominance of me and i related that to being taken down.  i still need to be taken down in some sort of a way, reduced to tears and overwhelmed by someone i trust who is bigger and stronger than me.  because i am a strong bitch, i realise and sometimes i need that physically taken from me.  but it doesnt need to be punishment anymore.
 
today i took on a sonofabitch who tried to overtake me on a forest road, lined by grazzing animals, later he pulled up infront of my car and forced me to slam on my brakes, as he got out of his car i was already out of mine and ready for him.  i swept the floor with him and left him standing with no argument.  i was magnificent  -



 It's a mental impression that's physically applied regarding who wears the pants. You can liken it to his opportunity for glorified strutting that just happens to turn me on. I don't get that from physical punishment. I withdraw and disassociate.
 
im someone who can accept and take punishment if its earned and its used to propell a stagnant situation forward.  i do not need punishment to have it proved to me that He is in control, i have given Him all of me, why would i then contradict that.  were i with a man who wished for punishment to be an integral part of our relationship that would not have put me off, i do not find it a negative thing at all, so long as its used judiciously and correctly.  but then i would not have entered that relationship believing i was going to be punished, id go in believing that i would not do anything to earn it in the first place.
 
but as you say maturity and growing into this makes you sensitive to the nuance and the subtleties of their power and control of you, along with the overt expression that comes through BDSM.
 
whilst i can accept punishment i do not think i need it any more.  i no longer need to have enforced the one thing i know i want with a man im totally bonkers about

~porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

ive picked out bits from youre post, but it was all worth reading through a couple of times

quote:

absolutely! - its the subtleties i pick up on now.  i find myself hearing things that i didnt hear before.  i feel myself bending to a gentle voice and im compelled to listen and follow.  there is no compulsion to kick the traces or fight, simply to follow His flow.

quote:

i can speak only for myself here - but often a punishment occurred because i pushed for it.  i wanted to test his resolve and Dominance of me and i related that to being taken down.  i still need to be taken down in some sort of a way, reduced to tears and overwhelmed by someone i trust who is bigger and stronger than me.  because i am a strong bitch, i realise and sometimes i need that physically taken from me.  but it doesnt need to be punishment anymore.

quote:

today i took on a sonofabitch who tried to overtake me on a forest road, lined by grazzing animals, later he pulled up infront of my car and forced me to slam on my brakes, as he got out of his car i was already out of mine and ready for him.  i swept the floor with him and left him standing with no argument.  i was magnificent  -

quote:

im someone who can accept and take punishment if its earned and its used to propell a stagnant situation forward.  i do not need punishment to have it proved to me that He is in control, i have given Him all of me, why would i then contradict that.  were i with a man who wished for punishment to be an integral part of our relationship that would not have put me off, i do not find it a negative thing at all, so long as its used judiciously and correctly.  but then i would not have entered that relationship believing i was going to be punished, id go in believing that i would not do anything to earn it in the first place.

quote:

whilst i can accept punishment i do not think i need it any more.  i no longer need to have enforced the one thing i know i want with a man im totally bonkers about

quote:

ORIGINAL: SouthernSpankin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one?

There are many adults out there that are happy in a relationship with a punishment dynamic... who even claim it is the most loving relationship imaginable. Yes, you said you are "not referring to funishment" and "That is...not what I am concerned with here." So why all the trashing on punishment here in the general BDSM forum? If you don't want to talk about the BDSM people into punishment, and if you just want to talk about punishment in the overall vanilla world, why not post your particular thoughts in a forum like "Politics and Religion"? By posting your thoughts here in the general BDSM forum, you make it seem like you aren't cool with people that enjoy a relationship with a punishment dynamic. My guess is you aren't cool with one yourself, and you think everybody has to be like you. I don't see why you think everybody has to be like you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: SouthernSpankin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one?

There are many adults out there that are happy in a relationship with a punishment dynamic... who even claim it is the most loving relationship imaginable. Yes, you said you are "not referring to funishment" and "That is...not what I am concerned with here." So why all the trashing on punishment here in the general BDSM forum? If you don't want to talk about the BDSM people into punishment, and if you just want to talk about punishment in the overall vanilla world, why not post your particular thoughts in a forum like "Politics and Religion"? By posting your thoughts here in the general BDSM forum, you make it seem like you aren't cool with people that enjoy a relationship with a punishment dynamic. My guess is you aren't cool with one yourself, and you think everybody has to be like you. I don't see why you think everybody has to be like you.

I am not trashing anyone. I am just curious because all I have learned in my education negates all that I have heard and learned here.

I myself, in my younger, younger years had been in a punishment relationship, it wasn’t good for me at all and I got out, but at the time that it had started it was what I thought I wanted and needed so I can understand on some level some people wanting and needing it. However, now that I see better ways of behavior modification, I simply question the use of punishment. This is about curiosity and getting into others heads. It is not about trashing any one else’s relationships it is about me being able to close that huge rift between what I have learned in school and what I have learned here.

Color me confused is all