RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:49:40 AM)

quote:

Julia, you're a Taoist? What day of the week do you guys go to church? And what are the "benefits" of being a Taoist over a Christian or a Jew?


Is this going to be a debate on whose religion has a bigger steeple?

I was raised to have Christian ideals and with what my parents garnered as "bibical principles", such as the Golden Rule, etc... then I started going to different churches and realized it was not for me. I am not into churches and rituals... if that is your thang, go you!

What does Taoism offer me, inner peace, calmness, satisfaction with my life and my place in the world. In fact, The Way helped me overcome anxiety




Anarrus -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:51:29 AM)

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.




popeye1250 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:52:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Julia, you're a Taoist? What day of the week do you guys go to church? And what are the "benefits" of being a Taoist over a Christian or a Jew?


Is this going to be a debate on whose religion has a bigger steeple?

I was raised to have Christian ideals and with what my parents garnered as "bibical principles", such as the Golden Rule, etc... then I started going to different churches and realized it was not for me. I am not into churches and rituals... if that is your thang, go you!

What does Taoism offer me, inner peace, calmness, satisfaction with my life and my place in the world. In fact, The Way helped me overcome anxiety


So, you don't "have" to go to church then?




AsmodaisSin -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:54:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.


Meaning what, exactly?  That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?




kdsub -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:03:24 AM)

Why not just look around…feel the earth beneath you…then let your mind drift…do you think all around you is random chance… something from nothing with time neither beginning nor ending… or…do you feel the touch of intelligence, power, and a purpose for creation even if you don‘t understand it?

If you like me feel a purpose and see order from chaos then this is enough for me to believe in God. If you don’t like the word God then perhaps Source…or any word you would like to describe the guiding creative force.

Take your time and explore organized religion… if one seems right to you then by all means rejoice in it. If none do then keep your own religion. In the end it will be between you and God or it will make no difference at all if there is but oblivion.

I think we all know what it takes to be a good, fair minded, loving human being and I think that is all God is asking…I choose to believe this is enough for my soul. I don’t need the strapping’s of tradition and rules made by man trying to dictate the only path to salvation.

Butch




DemandingOwner1 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:12:14 AM)

Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:

If you believe in God, and there is no God, then you end up simply disappearing when you die

If you do NOT believe in God, and there is a God, then you end up burning in hell for eternity

His conclusion was 'believe in God, there is no downside and plenty of upside' though stated much more elegantly.




Anarrus -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:14:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.


Meaning what, exactly?  That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?



And I would ask you why is it so difficult for people to simply believe in themselves and take full responsibilty for what happens (both good and bad) in their lives without assigning it to the will of a deity? It is what it is and hard as we may try, we can know very little.

Follow what you will. I prefer to lead or get the hell out of the way.[:D]




EbonyWood -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:19:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.


Meaning what, exactly?  That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?



If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes.
 
 
Mr Johnson
Head of Mathematics




Rule -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:22:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1
Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:

If you believe in God, and there is no God, then you end up simply disappearing when you die

If you do NOT believe in God, and there is a God, then you end up burning in hell for eternity

His conclusion was 'believe in God, there is no downside and plenty of upside' though stated much more elegantly.

Descartes had a simple mind.




Apocalypso -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:29:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1

Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:
Was that not Pascal?




juliaoceania -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:38:46 AM)

quote:

So, you don't "have" to go to church then?


Your point?




scropiomoon727 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 11:39:29 AM)

If god is all knowing, how can he think?  Is not speech crucial to thought?  If god thinks: "Pigs have wings"  They have wings.

How can a perfect being make an imperfect creation?  How can the world around us be proof of gods existence eg. divine architect, if the limitations of three dimensions eg. imperfection, exclude omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence?

If there is one god.  And a multitute pray to him in the same manner, ie. every sunday at church, how can that one god speak to each individual person individually?





popeye1250 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 12:02:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So, you don't "have" to go to church then?


Your point?


Julia, I don't know anything about the Taoist faith. I was just wondering which day of the week you guys go to church.




juliaoceania -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 12:04:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So, you don't "have" to go to church then?


Your point?


Julia, I don't know anything about the Taoist faith. I was just wondering which day of the week you guys go to church.


Taoists do not go to church...Some Taoists are Atheists.

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS366&q=taoism&aq=f&aqi=g-p1g4g-s1g2g-s2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CbOiFJlBDTJfwMY7IigOr_NWbAQAAAKoEBU_QPBzU







Rule -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 12:10:45 PM)

I will assume that you refer to the Divine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: scropiomoon727
If god is all knowing, how can he think?

How not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: scropiomoon727
Is not speech crucial to thought?

What was first, the chicken or the egg?

quote:

ORIGINAL: scropiomoon727
If god thinks: "Pigs have wings"  They have wings.

How do you know?

First of all, the Divine does not intervene in our universe on its own volition.

Secondly, even if a pagan god or one of his avatars or a human desired for pigs to have wings, I am fairly certain that it is a desire that falls into the nearly impossible category, especially because of the consequences for necessary changes in evolutionary history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: scropiomoon727
How can a perfect being make an imperfect creation?

Why do you assume it is imperfect? Because you perceive it as such? Perchance that is more telling about the perfection of your perception than about the perfection of creation, not so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: scropiomoon727
How can the world around us be proof of gods existence eg. divine architect, if the limitations of three dimensions eg. imperfection, exclude omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence?

It isn't. Spirituality has to be experienced. The Divine is 'outside' our universe and therefore beyond the reach of the scientific method.

quote:

ORIGINAL: scropiomoon727
If there is one god.  And a multitude pray to him in the same manner, ie. every sunday at church, how can that one god speak to each individual person individually?

Why do you assume the Divine speaks to people? It does not. Do you hear voices?




BKSir -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 12:43:09 PM)

I agree that many religions put that out there, and it does bother me. One shouldn't need some invisible man in the sky and lakes of goat shit fire in the ground to set their moral compass. It's like, as someone compared earlier, organized crime and protection rackets. "Pay us money to make sure you're 'safe'. Otherwise, WE will throw bricks through your store windows." It's sad that people even need the reward/punishment aspect of this to do right and wrong.

Then again, isn't that what a lot of us are into here on this specific site in a way anyway? *sigh* fucking paradoxes, I hate them so much.

Personally, I don't believe in heaven or hell. I believe in "something", be it god(dess)(e/s), flying spaghetti monster, enlightenment, the fates, Lumberjack Joe and his toenail elves, whatever. There's just too much that is wonderful and amazing in this, and every other world, for it to all be chance. This gigantic clockwork universe running smoothly for so long from the largest macrocosm, to the smallest cells in the smallest creature. No, I don't think it was just happenstance.

Do I need threats of fire and brimstone and pitchforks up the ass to believe? No. Does this belief weigh heavily in my own moral compass and daily decisions of "right" and "wrong"? Not even remotely. A belief in God/Satan and Heaven/Hell, does not make anyone "good". In fact, in more cases than not, it makes people "hypocritical". Many "Christians", or people of any religion, are absolute assholes in reality, caring about their fellow man for about an hour and a half on Sunday morning, then pissing on them the other 6 days 23 hours of the week. Hell, a lot of them go to church simply because it's habit at this point and don't even want to be there. No, that doesn't mean I hate religions or what they stand for. They're fine ideas, when broken down to their bare essences. I hate that mankind has said "We can take this idea and profit from it!", and now everything is severely fucked up.

IF there is a God, he's probably sitting up on high shaking his head and thinking "What the...!? HOW did you get this so wrong? All I wanted was a beautiful creation and told you not to be dicks to eachother. How did you even end up where you are? Was it THAT difficult to understand?"

No, belief does not make one "good" any more than non-belief makes one "bad" in their heart, soul and actions. I don't need a God to know that it's the right thing to do to hand a starving man something to eat, and I don't need threats (be they hell or jail) to know that punching a little old lady and stealing her purse is probably not the best thing I could do.

It does make me wonder though, how weak are we that so many feel the need for such guidance/coercion simply to do the right thing, and even then, in many many cases, that doesn't even help.

So, is it a choice? Absolutely, just as following the law is a choice. Although with that, if one chooses not to, there are far more provable and tangible results. Feel free to choose how you wish. I chose to believe that "god"(or whatever), if there is one, would most likely rather me not be a dick than have me believe in "him". I mean, really. One dude, running the whole damned universe, making sure everything is working right? I think he's probably got more on his mind than if one guy believes in him or not.




vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 12:57:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1

Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:
Was that not Pascal?



I truly Believe you are correct! Amen. [:D]




vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 1:00:00 PM)

quote:

First of all, the Divine does not intervene in our universe on its own volition.


How do you know?

Does it interfere against its own volition?




Rule -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 1:01:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir
I chose to believe that "god"(or whatever), if there is one, would most likely rather me not be a dick than have me believe in "him". I mean, really. One dude, running the whole damned universe, making sure everything is working right? I think he's probably got more on his mind than if one guy believes in him or not.

Quite.




vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 1:02:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.


Meaning what, exactly?  That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?



If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes.


Nicely played. [:)]






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