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Termyn8or -> Child support (7/19/2010 2:36:27 PM)

This long, I can't make it much shorter, sorry.

A thread very similar to this got bounced by Reichfeurer Mod 11 befor, and right now I guess I will see how the new regime takes to it. There is nothing improper here, this is a social and finacial issue. It also deals with unfair laws and how the government seems to want to destroy us, which would be cutting their nose off to spite their face. But their sheer stupidity is not at issue here. There is alot to this and will take time just to recollect, this post is probably going to take over an hour to write, so I appreciate that anyone reads it all. Bear with me please.

It all started with two friends of mine. Actually one is sort of a snake in the grass and I see him rarwlt now because he took advantage of me when I was very sick, but his case is still material to my point. For the purpose of posting, he will be referred to as JJ. He was divorces in absentia, mainly because when she put him out he was homeless. He did not have his day in court, and had no chance to present his case. He had lost his temper because he caught his olady in bed with another Man. Remember they were legally marries, otherwise there would be no divorce of course. He never even knew about it, and years late found out that he owed a fortune in back child support. Of course he was aware that he had kids and he was willing to pay support, but they didn't find him after a period of homlessness. Also hi olady took the kids and moved far away and he couldn't find her or his kids for a number of years.

Now JJ will run game, but I don't think he would do that on his kids. He wants to see them, have visitation at least. Knowing JJ he is a kid at heart, and I can actually see why his olady doesn't want him around the kids - he is a play baby. But those are his kids too and that is not her decision to make. She has illegally denied his visitation rights even after he found her. She hates him for some reason, but he never hit her. She got his ass thrown out, probably by planning to get caught cheating in his bed to gain the upper hand. He put his fist through a door, not her. I fully understand that I only have half of the story, but if even fifty percent of it is true, he would've been better off killing her on the spot. Crime of passion.

He has little in the way of skills but can and does go out and makes about $300 a week, and they take a hundred a week. He is OK with that because he loves his kids, the problem is that she belongs in jail for denying him court ordered visiations. He is working, and paying, but the law in Ohio specifically states that visitation rights are not depenent upon payment of suppot. But while she is in clear violation of the law, and he went to her house with the police to see his kids, they would not lock his ex cunt up, most likely because they would have to take all the kids in as well, as she was the primary caretaker.

When JJ works they are taking $400 a month out of his pay, partly for arrears and the rest is ongoing until the kids are 18. He still has no problem with it even thoug he says the bitch is using it for partying money. Doesn't matter, she can burn it up like that but it is still part of "the general fund" like the bailout financing those yacht parties for the bansters. I mean if you give me a hundred for the electric bill and I pay the gas bill instead with it, so what right ? Something got paid.

The thing to remember here is that he never hit her or any of the kids. He does not drink, nothing like that. Yet he is screwed, and if he gets laid off or fired he loses his driver's license and has warrants issued for his arrest. What kind of fucking logic is that ? He actually wants to pay and wants to see his kids. How is this serving the cause of justice ?

Then there is the case of MI, also divorced in absentia. They had a house not far from me before I ever even knew him, it burned down to the ground. His olady had his papers sent to a hole in the ground. Now this Woman of virtue filed while he was in the hospital after a very bad car wreck, the gear shifter went about all the way through his chest. Now MI was never even accused of any violence or anything, they were splitting up, it seems because she fell out of love. This evidenced by the fact that she had a new lover the next day, and was probably already cheating on him.

He had two total cardiac arrests on the way to the hospital and he refers to it jokingly today that he already has died twice. Now his kids are both grown up, and arrears is all there is, as if they sent his olady the money. They did not. What's more she ran up all the utility bills which were in his name to the point where he can't even think of getting a place to live unless it is without gas or electric. And he didn't do it. This cunt really hit him hard, and really for no reason. Afterwhile I find out that while he literally on his death bed, she said to pull the plug, actually that was his wish, but the docs wouldn't do it, and now he is a mechanic and a construction worker. But every so often he goes along and gets stopped, to find out his license was again suspended yesterday, and has to pay up about a fucking grand in tow charges and fines.

And MI's ex did not stop at denying him legal visiation, she threatened to cut the kids of if they had or tried to have any contact with thei Fathe, which is MI, and there is no dispute. The older kid turned 18 and was able to drive and do whatever she wanted. She contaced MI and it was great. She realized that Mom was a welfare bitch and really, WTF is she getting disowned from ? Her daughter now spends alot of time with Grampa and his new olaqdy, I mean weeks on end. The cunt's teeth are ripped out but that doesn't solve the legal problems she crated for this Man. Again, he has no problem paying when able.

Now comes RP. He was out of work for 18 months due to too many problems. I just read his court papers. Fist set looked almost good. He said they are going to want $1,250. The first set of papers said $750, but today came more for another $500, which puts his esimate right on the mark. If he can't pay it by the end of November off to jail he goes for 30 days for comtempt of court. I am going to talk to him later today because he has no idea how to deal with this. I do. Maybe I am not perfect but at least I have some ideas.

The problem with RP is that he has a history with this particular county judge, when he was younger and after reading the papers it is clear to me that this judge hates his guts. I know the means to either get him to recuse himself or something, and/or move the case top another jurisdiction. The problem with RP is that it is hard to get him to listen, but I'll take care of that. When he gets here later I will know more, but he has no idea what his options are. This is where the common law and YHWH people came in handy, got quite an education over the years. I just don't buy into their flippant theories.

Now how to accomplish this ? That is up in the air. But I came here for advice if anyone is qualified to give it. There is no Wife beating involved in any of these cases. If there was I would tell these guys to go fuck off.

RP is here. I'll be back.

T



Aylee -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 2:44:17 PM)

You need to tell your friends that they should speak with a family law counselor. 



Lockit -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 3:05:56 PM)

It's amazing the lessons we could learn when we allow stupidity to rule our lives. Why so harsh Lockit? Because everyone of those people had legal recourse had they chosen to find it and use it. Especially the homeless where they have a number of agencies that can help them. I won't bother to list all the agencies there are out there.

I love it when people cry foul long after the facts and can't stand up for themselves, making them victims of some woman or system.

I also won't bother to say what I think each could have done, as that isn't my job any longer, but sometimes you just can't fix stupid and most of that was stupid or laziness.



antinomy -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 3:16:35 PM)

There are two sides to every story. You are hearing only one side in each. While I, too, tend to side with my friends on such matters- I seldom think what they are telling me is the "fact" of the situation. Might be the facts the way THEY see it, but it could be seen very differently by the mother's of these children. You have talked with the dads, they are your friends. I wonder what the friends of the mother's have heard in regard to JJ, MI and RP? It's why there is a judicial system in place and arbitration available in such instances. Wife beating and child abuse are not the only issues in support and custody cases. Your buddies need to law up, and take it from there.



defiantbadgirl -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 3:56:15 PM)

I feel bad for your friends and even worse about what I have to say. Unfortunately when a relationship involving children ends, it doesn't matter why or who is at fault. The ex who has the children gets child support. The ex who doesn't pays because they are considered the absent parent. I've never understood why they suspend a person's drivers license for being behind on child support. Lack of transportation interferes with employment. So does incarceration. Anything that gets in the way of employment causes further inability to pay child support. It makes no sense. Child support is a risk everyone takes when having children. Some tips I have for fathers who are splitting up with the mother of their children: Get shared custody asap. Not joint custody, shared custody. With shared custody, both parents continue to be responsible for the child and neither parent pays child support. Also, with shared custody, joint custody, or cases where custody has never been decided by a judge, neither parent can take the child over the state line without the consent of the other parent or it's kidnapping. As for your friends, if they can get their ex's thrown in jail for any reason and have their kids with them, they can prevent further child support (although all past support will still be owed).



xxblushesxx -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 9:25:47 PM)

What's an olady?
If you choose to avoid your judgments, and ignore court orders, don't complain when you eventually have to pay.
These gentlemen could have gone back to court but chose not to. That's their problem.
Arrears is just as valid a debt as a current support order. It means the "olady" paid her share and his share while the children were growing up. Now it's time for him to settle up.



tazzygirl -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 9:41:11 PM)

quote:

I've never understood why they suspend a person's drivers license for being behind on child support. Lack of transportation interferes with employment. So does incarceration.


They can suspend drivers licences as well as any professional licence until its paid up. They did this to force men (and women) to face their obligations instead of thumbing their noses at the child support laws.

Lack of transportation and employment are threats most people take seriously. Imagine being a lawyer skirting the support laws, only to discover his licence has been suspended. Talk about embarrassment. And that is what its intended to do.



Lockit -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 10:10:57 PM)

I had one that ran and didn't pay for fourteen years. Guess what convinced him to pay. Oh... and I kept the kids from him! lol Funny I lived in the same place for nine years and he couldn't be found except every two years when I hired a detective and of course he ran again.

They warn you before they take the goods. You just have to pay up and if you don't... they take the goods.



Termyn8or -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 11:50:46 PM)

Interesting bunch of responses. Almost disagreement free actually, you know ten more posts without a flame war would be a CM record for a thread like this, which I would rate as about 7.8 on the kerosene scale.

Now, I can't respond to everyone right now, but I did read. As such I should say a few things. I have played Devil's advocate with JJ and MI, but not with RP yet, and might not as he may be off for a bit. But I hit them as hard as I could, using their own words against them. I have weighed the facts as I see them (go figure). When MI got put out she kept his tools, and therefore he had big trouble trying to work. He had some kind of little job but in his garage he made three times as much at night and on the weekends. She liked that money.

With JJ, he is not of high intelligence [see how kind I am ? ] and I can understand why, if his ex is of high intelligence she does not want him to be too big of an influence on them. Really, and I have told him so. All he wants to do is take them fishing, he never gives any thought to teaching them any useful skills. I can understand this but if she can see this, why did she fuck him, AND MARRY HIM and have a fourload of kids with him ? According to the law this is all his problem.

With RP, he is on his own now because as I said I was going to talk to him later. Well I did and it wound up to be an argument, and the wheels are in motion to remove him from my life. I have very large, heavy wheels and they don't stop easily. This does not change the fact that they are fucking him up the ass, and he doesn't go for that. They want over 1200 in about two months, that is about the payment on a new Escolade. Why don't you have a new car ? This is bullshit, he doesn't even have a car. And I say this right now as I am pissed at him for his attitude and I have just fucked his world up, with only a finger. Just because I am broke doesn't mean I don't have friends.

There were two cop cars here today and I talked to them as if I was Mother Teresa. I mean those fifteen warrants mean nothing. I told the boy not to go against me, but he never backs down. Fuck me once shame on you, fuck me twice shame on me. I couldn't let the current issue go, and there was only one way. I used power. The entire police force is out to get him, which means if he gets stopped in this district they will do a search, and they will fibd at least one stem (crck pipe) and that'll get you a year in prison here now. Do I think it is fair ? NO. But the Terminator deal is that you don't fuck with me, period.

Regardless of that, I still think the system is fucking him over. He should have listened and stayed on my good side. Really. But the stupid motherfucker will just do whatever he want whenever he wants. I did that between 12 and 21, but I learned. I learned, now it's his turn. Sorry. Facts are still facts. There is no way in hell he can come up with enough money to fix this. With the help of my family and I maybe, but now he doesn't have that.

The argument started because he thought he knew more about the law than me. Now I actually regret what I have done, because with a few well placed words I have made him the hottest target in town. Remember this my friends - power does not always depend on money. Fuck the asshole and the horse he rode in on. You wonder why I am not willing to relocate ? Well wonder no more. And this is a friend of mine.

But maybe my blowing the steam off like this has uncovered something else. Something more deeply rooted in logic.

You get laid off or fired, so now you lose your license and can't even drive around looking for another job. You owe the IRS taxes and you can't pay, so they assess penalties and interest, which makes it even harder to pay. It is all pay pay pay.

I am starting to get a glimpse of something here but I am not sure what it is.

Things are going wrong, really wrong. I am pissed at all three of the people for whom I appear to be an advocate. This does not matter right now. Want the details ? JJ took advantage of me when I was really sick, but only a little bit. Then RP has been taking that afterward. And MI lost a $300 item I loaned him and I don't think I'll ever see that money.

But in my position one must put aside personal things. Will I not halp them because they have wronged me > Well there will come a time and place for me to make that decision. I hope it's not too hard.

The fact is no matter what is going on personally, the system is really fucking these guys over. This is not what we pay taxes for. The system is supposed to help people not hurt people. How do we change that ? Di I have to set up a website taking donations from people who have no money ? Yup, that'll work huh !

There is no way out of the civil injutice done to us in this country unless we can get some form of solidarity. We can't even organize a boycott anymore, even on one square city block ! What does that say about us ?

It says we deserve to get fucked.

T



xxblushesxx -> RE: Child support (7/19/2010 11:59:00 PM)

The system is not effing them over.
They have done it to themselves.
If you can't pay the ordered support, you go to court and request a modification.
If you don't do that, or the judge doesn't believe your excuse, you better get your butt in gear, delivering pizzas, working at micky d's, mowing yards and whatever else it is you have to do.
Because...your kids have to eat.
Even if.



LadyEllen -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 1:22:08 AM)

There's two issues here - the child support issue and the visitation/custody aspect.

Child support is I'm afraid one of the costs of divorce just as its one of the costs of marriage. There is no good reason why, if you were responsible to house, clothe and feed your child in marriage you should be excused that obligation because you fall out with your spouse. You dont get to divorce your kids, even if your spouse turns out to be a manipulating shit.

But then that brings up the real problem here, and one that is rooted deep in sexism alive and well in the system I believe, that in almost every instance, regardless of her suitability or otherwise, regardless of any wishes expressed by children or the father and regardless of her character, it is the mother who gets custody and the father who has to pay child support and attempt to maintain contact with his kids.

And when she then denies him access to his children, quite deliberately, or maliciously turns them against their father, he finds himself helpless to do anything about it and the law impotent to intervene on his behalf, despite that she is harming his children. One might counsel him to seek legal advice, but how should he pay for it one wonders and why, if such advice might assist his cause, is this same problem played out a million times every weekend across the world?

Ultimately its the children that both parties should be focused on, and if theyre not - if either declines or deliberately harms the interests of the children, whether by denying support or contact, then there must be a sanction in civil and criminal law and contempt of court must be applicable to both parties or be seen as a tactic of abuse that brings the law into disrepute.

Although overall it just goes to support my general theory that most people are daft. No one, barring mental illness, whether wife or husband turns into someone you cant stand or who is abusive or plain stupid overnight; if more people were able to check their rose tinted specs and see others for what they are rather than what their hormones tell them, maybe we'd have more marriages and families that at least outlasted the time it takes for kids to grow up.

E



Missokyst -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 7:15:47 AM)

I find it very interesting that getting pregnant always seems to fall upon the females responsibility. Check out the Maury show sometime and you will see guys having a boat load of kids, but people are hooting about the women who have 3 "baby daddies". Umm.. last time I checked they make these things called condoms. If a guy is serious about not wanting to have kids that he might have to take any financial responsibility for, he can use those! Or get himself fixed, problem solved.

I have no sympathy for men who do not support the children they spawn. My ex paid exactly 100 dollars willingly in entire time we were divorced. He got out of it by changing jobs, by working under the table, and by living on unemployment. The one time I got that money it was thrown at me in front of his girlfriend while he told her I would use it for party money. Yeah. I actually went out. Along with raising my kids, buying all their school clothes (any clothes he bought stayed at HIS place so they wouldnt get ruined), and I eventually put them through college alongside myself.

Raising kids takes cash. If you don't have it, don't make them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

All he wants to do is take them fishing, he never gives any thought to teaching them any useful skills. I can understand this but if she can see this, why did she fuck him, AND MARRY HIM and have a fourload of kids with him ? According to the law this is all his problem.





onething -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 7:42:19 AM)

Missokyst

  I agree with you whole heartly !!  Many males get off scott free in not paying for child support!For what whatever reason.  But( don't you just hate the BUTS) It's does takes TWO !  I know of three guys , that are just  bums, that just  don't want to work. ( I know that for a fact, had them all work for me, even help them get other jobs) The only job they were any good at was getting out of work!!  All three were on drugs at one time or another all were in jail at one time or another! Two of them stole from me. Yet all three had kids!!!  One for the life of me was liveing with this women that had a good job and a nice place ! Yet she was going with this one asshole!Taking care of him. Remember I said it take two!!  What on earth do these females see in these looser!!!    Yes if you are going to father a child , stand up and BE A MAN, BE a  DAD!!   Then again women kick his damm ass out of bed before it happen !!!!  Takes TWO!



sirsholly -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 7:51:16 AM)

quote:

he would've been better off killing her on the spot. Crime of passion.
Yeah. They have two little ones.

If he had killed her he would not be in this mess right now, huh?

Of course, two babies would have no mother and their dad would be in jail for killing her. The kids would probably live in the foster care system with no stability of environment at all.

But...screw the kids. Crime of passion. He would have gotten off fairly light and not be paying support now...right? He also would not have his kids, because by the time he got out of jail, the kids would be old enough to decide they want nothing to do with the man who killed their mother. But hey...no support payments.





sirsholly -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 8:03:01 AM)

quote:

The fact is no matter what is going on personally, the system is really fucking these guys over. This is not what we pay taxes for. The system is supposed to help people not hurt people
some of the tax money goes into the welfare system that supports these kids when the deadbeat dad will not.
quote:


There is no way out of the civil injutice done to us in this country unless we can get some form of solidarity. We can't even organize a boycott anymore, even on one square city block ! What does that say about us ?

It says we deserve to get fucked.
Yeah...solidarity! Lets all join hands so dads (or moms who pay support) can use whatever excuse they want not to support their kids. When we're done we can sit around the fire singing Kumbaya and toasting weenies.

Funny...three friends and each one was married to a bitch and is getting screwed by the system. Really?



AlwaysLisa -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 8:17:27 AM)

Oy.  Where's Jerry Springer when you need him.

Personal responsibility, in all three examples given, is seriously lacking.  Instead of blaming somone else, (the system), maybe it would be better served to pull up the "big kid panties" and deal with the consequences of actions.



Termyn8or -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 8:59:16 AM)

FR

All have good points, but in these cases nobody is abdicating their responsibility. The fact remains though that if these couples were still together there would surely be a possibility that "he" might end up jobless, especially in this economy. But since they broke up if that happens he has to ride a fucking bicycle to jail. That is purely fucked up.

Maybe I should say pardon my French, but this is not an issue to fuck around with. Think of goodfellas [mafia if you must]. A guy owes you a bunch of money and doesn't have the weekly vig[orish]. So you break his legs. Now he can't work or run whatever game he was running to pay you. Where did that get you ? The whole thing is ridiculous. They pretty much stopped doing it a long time ago, but it is almost like the government has started using similar tactics. They have yet to learn that in the end all they will accomplish is to fill their jails with homeless people that they have created.

I have already said that if these guys were trying to get out of their responsibilities I wouldn't even talk to them about it, unless there were some really unusual circumstances.

Right now I have problems with two of the people I mentioned, but that does not change the facts. These things are separate issues. But let me just tell you a little about me.

You don't understand my kind, so I will try to be succinct. If I get you pregnant and it goes to term, my life changes and so does your's. That means no more prtying, no more housefuls of people, no more alot of things. It is then OUR responsibiliy to create a proper environment and do what we have to do. Certain things must be taken seriously. You just don't know how much. Don't take candy from strangers ? No, don't take candy from anyone but Mom and Dad. Period.

And we can't break up. To be as succinct as possible you can't leave me for about eighteen years, if you try, our kid is an orphan, got it ? Sounds harsh but so what. This is the future and I have fucked mine up enough, I will not let it get fucked up for another, especially a youngin of my own blood. I will not allow it to happen twice. You know what orphan means.

That means we can't split up for at least about fifteen years. It's called a commitment and so very few know what that means. You fall out of love you stick around and do you fucking duty, and I shall do the same. Nobody understands this, and if they do they consider my ideals radical. But what you don't understand is that it would be just as binding on me. I'll atick with the ugly fat cunt I hate because she is a necessary component of the kid's life, which we created. Till death do we part until those kids are ready for life. I came form a broken home and I willNOT, under any circumstances put anyone else through that. Even if we hate each other.

What I have found in life to be true, spoken by a girlfriend of Jim Watt - there are very few real Men in this world. They weren't kinky at all, she was assertive to say the least, but was the Master. I mean he had handcuffs but would only use them if she wouldn't let him watch Gunsmoke. He was one of the most dominant people I have ever known, yet still he got into that trick bag. I don't know how everyone got out alive when he caught his olady in bed with his own brother.

(FYI olady and olman in this context means seriously shacked up with kids or actually married)

Get me shacked up w/kids and you will see things that are not quite normal. At the front door "I'm busy, the kids are watching TV". It won't be HBO or Showtime, it will most likely be some documentary on A&E or the History channel or something. The influences will be tightly controlled. If that time ever would come, you don't just show up at my door with beer and a joint. Those days are over. Perhaps Satuday night we can cut loose a bit, but all in all, I've already said that I know better than to trust the educational system to do what they think they should do. That kid is going to read before kindergarden. That kid will be able to drive a car by age 12. That kid will know basic algebra before math class ever starts. I don't play to lose, and this is no different. You fall out of love and fuck the game up, well there will be consequences.

And for me too. If my name is ever "Dad" I take that more seriously than your life, in fact even mine. Maybe I am lucky it did not happen, but if it did, I am not going to be like these wigger you see on Maury. I am not going on Judge Judy, none of that. My law stands. We made a baby and you are just as stuck with that as I am.

I don't know what else to say. It's called responsibility. We are the balck sheep of the family, doing the first divorce since our ancestors set foot on this land. We have had a fiftieth wedding anniversery in every generation as well since then. We might not make it this time, or I might not be alive to see it, but that's the way it is.

And some may know that I am putting up with alot of shit right now because of keeping my word. This is no fun due to my health problems. And as much as I want to crawl back into bed right now, I am going to work in a few minutes.

But with me, bear this in mind Ladies, it is two Parents or no Parents. This is too important to do half assed.

Others don't see it that way, but I see no reason for the law to cut their legs off.

T

(unproofed, have to go now)



xxblushesxx -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 9:04:23 AM)

Term...you're insane. You will kill the mother of your child if she decides that you're not working together as husband and wife any longer? All righty then.

Now back to the first point you made; yes, any of those guys if still with the mothers of their children could have lost their jobs. They would STILL have the responsibility to find another one quickly. The kids can't wait while the dad tries to find a job that is "worthy" of him, he has to do what needs to be done to feed and clothe those children. Even if they're with the exes, and even if they're not.

Even if.



splorff -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 9:16:33 AM)

Its pretty much the same in the UK. It does not matter if the woman's behaviour is the cause of the divorce- she will get custody. And he will not only loose his kids, wife and home, but his savings and pension too, one way or another.

Such women as you describe will enjoy poisoning the children against their father. Her objective of course, is to get the children to say that they do not want to see their father. Such a thing she believes, will vindicate her. She cannot see of course, that she is committing child abuse, and that she should immediately loose custody because of it..

It is truly sickening that the spineless judiciary and politicians allow things like this to continue, prefering to roll over and play dead for liberal and feminist lobbies.



DesFIP -> RE: Child support (7/20/2010 9:26:54 AM)

He didn';t hit anyone, he just terrorized them by yelling and hitting the wall? That's emotional abuse. It says he's out of control and watch out because the next time he might hit her or the children.

Beyond that, and having lived in that situation I hate it and am less than rational about subjecting anyone to it, the $400 goes towards rent and utilities and food for his children. The court doesn't care what she does with extra funds, as long as the children are taken care of.

As far as visitation goes, are you sure these children want to be with him? My daughter will talk to her father, she will not stay with him. And she's not the first child I know who will not under any circumstance see their father, court or no court. You get one chance to terrify a child, after that you'll never get them to trust you again. Sounds like your buddy blew his.



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