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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:10:25 AM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
Status: offline 		What do I care if someone wants to label themselves with 'true' or 'real'?  It doesn't affect me, my life or my surroundings in the least. 

In the same vein, if I'm fed lines like, "If you don't do (insert action here), then you're not a real slave." or "A true slave wouldn't do that.", I just give a non-commital, "O.k.".  At the end of the day, I'm still going to go home and do things the way I've been doing them from day one...His way.



Someone on these boards made a comment that I adore ( wish I could remember who she was), and I think it fits here.

To pharaphrase:  "I'm too damned busy defining my own reality to worry about defining anyone else's for them."

*watches 'ban' wagon shuffle on down the road without me*



< Message edited by valeca -- 4/17/2006 10:21:59 AM >

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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:14:30 AM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		Really I think for many when they use those words they are just trying to seperate themselves form the on line players, wannabes, and hng's

K

< Message edited by PlayfulOne -- 4/17/2006 10:21:42 AM >

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:17:33 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: valeca

To pharaphrase:  "I'm too damned busy defining my own reality to worry about defining anyone else's for them."



Nicely said.... nuff said... jumps on bandwagon outta thread... have a great week all.


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(in reply to valeca)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:19:16 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		"To pharaphrase:  "I'm too damned busy defining my own reality to worry about defining anyone else's for them."

Impoverished language interfers with both communication and making sense of our own lives. If you don't have the words for something it is very difficult to deal with it in your head. If you don't have the words you can only deal with it mystically, which we all know most people are not willing or able to do. Your arguement does not hold water.  


(in reply to valeca)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:22:12 AM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Don't make me jump back in, people!

ICGsteve,

interfers is missing an e.
arguement found it.

Italics don't do much for reading long texts, the are good for emphasis.

And a picture can make it very easy to deal with things in your head.

Yours,


benji

Edited to add:  I am SOOOO indecent.  As of this post.

< Message edited by gooddogbenji -- 4/17/2006 10:23:51 AM >

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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:23:30 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		~in her best gumpanese accent~ ....true is as true does....

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"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:27:45 AM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		scratches benjis ears

     How can you not have an owner

K

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:33:21 AM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Easy.  Think of the respect I show on here.  Think of me saying this to a Mistress. 

Actually, for the most part, I just hate the BS most people associate with "the lifestyle", be it the One True Wayers or the No True Wayers....

Yours,


benji

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:36:49 AM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		Depends on the relationshiip Benji, I think for the right one you would know how to behave

K

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:38:26 AM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Of course, right now I just can't be bothered with behaving, and so will not go out and look for what I don't want....

Yours,


benji

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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:43:20 AM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

"To pharaphrase:  "I'm too damned busy defining my own reality to worry about defining anyone else's for them."

Impoverished language interfers with both communication and making sense of our own lives. If you don't have the words for something it is very difficult to deal with it in your head. If you don't have the words you can only deal with it mystically, which we all know most people are not willing or able to do. Your arguement does not hold water.  




1. Using qualifiers such as 'most' and 'if' undermines the validity of your statement.

2.  It wasn't an arguement.  It was a statement of how I work, and therefore does not require your agreement or disagreement.

3.  Perhaps it's difficult for you to 'deal with in your head' without words.  The same does not hold true for myself.

4. Body language doesn't require words, yet effectively communicates my meaning.  It neither impoverishes nor interferes my understanding of my own life or my place in the world of BDSM.  For instance, if I hold up my middle finger in your direction...



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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 10:47:36 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Like it or not, the community is increasingly online and virtual,


IC,
No matter how intense, the "community" you reference "on-line and virtual" is ultimately masturbation. Whether it's physical or mental the 'BL' is "on-line & virtual" are great references and learning tools but not great partners. Without a partner you'll never know who you are regardless of your "on-line and virtual" label.

On-line & virtual is a "community" of sharing information and perspective; of one dimensional relationships. It may be the future source of generating interest, but it will not be the future of BDSM 'absolutes' or penultimate defining labels. Relationships will always be defined uniquely by the people living them. Their definition and/or label of each other is not subject to challenge. Every relationship has their own dictionary. There is no "on-line" or "virtual" dictionary that should ever, or will ever replace it.

In the '70s the percentage of people who where active in the lifestyle and who lived the lifestyle was that same as it is now. The difference was there wasn't this universal access to information. It's a double edged sword. People who have any of the variations of gray lifestyle desires now don't have to wonder aimlessly and feel they are unique, perverted, and weird. They know there are others like them and, if they have the confidence and courage, they can seek their appropriate counterpart and/or counterparts. That's a GREAT benefit of the "on-line - virtual community". The bad side; anyone looking for a new way to get laid now has a new pick up line; "Hey bitch, I see from your profile you're submissive - GET ON YOUR KNEES!! - It's not going to suck itself!". Doubt that happens? Do a CM search on abusive first contact.

There was no agreement to labels or definitions in the 70's. That was the last thing anyone concerned themselves. The didn't need labels, they needed to find a person who could relate to them, how they felt, and fulfill physical desires. They came to parties, and attending clubs and did things with people they felt comfortable. The "right of passage" was a matter of meeting someone and developing the trust and integrity with them to the point that they would invite you into their community. Walking into that first party or club event announcing you were a master demanding the first slave you saw to serve you, was a great way to make a first and last impression.

Using the virtual world to generate meeting people is a great thing. The fact that I met beth through an on-line profile speaks for itself. But for all the pre-meeting chats, phone calls, and information exchange; how we labeled ourselves never worked it's way into the conversation. beth had ZERO practical lifestyle experience. All her information came from the internet searches that began in January and ended when we met in March. It she did insist to compare me her internet dictionary source definitions, after I was done laughing and making sarcastic comments, I would have recommended that she log out, toss away her labels, definitions, and dictionary; and set a time where we'd meet and start writing out our own. In effect, without the preconceived reference, that is exactly how our relationship was on the first day, and it is as it is today. Other than in very broad and general manner our labels of Master/slave are defining only of us. And we're still adding to our dictionary.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 11:57:27 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		M&B; it may be that the number of people serious about the lifestyle has not changed, but it certainly seems that a lot more people are at least playing around at it. We don't have a lot of facts to go on here, in part because the political climate is currently very cold to the notion of letting researchers go out and find out how people are living their sexual lives. I keep hearing that there are more and larger clubs and parties, though that many come just to watch and experience others who are active. IS this what you mean by then numbers have not changed, that the numbers of people using the kink is the same as before, but they are now often putting on a show for others?

I don't disagree with you making a sharp distinction between virtual and real, but I think that it is increasingly blurry. We live in an age of web cams after all, where "subs" do as they are directed by people they have never met and put on a show, one that could be dangerous . I also know that many people spend months on line and on the phone with someone before making long journeys to meet. I don't think the argument of "it was all virtual and if you took it seriously that's your own fault" works very well here. WE know that this is happening, we therefore have to take the virtual side of the house seriously. Places such as this is the way many if not most people get their introduction to BSDM. If it does not represent our values then I think everyone looses. Clarity and responsibility are hugely important values, you can't just wave your hand at on-line gibberish and say that it does not matter.

One other thing that I would like to get your thoughts on because I have respect for your posts, and have learned from them: in an age where the global community is clearly becoming more militanty fundimentalist, where increasing numbers of people wish to criminalize what we do, don't we have a duty to ourselves to police the online side of the house? Any bad thing that haapens here is  pinned to the whole  community, no matter if we care about or participate in online activites. If we allow online sites to become mines for preditors don't we all become outlaws? One need only remember how strongly the society went ofter swingers during the 80's to know what is in store for us if we don't clean up our act.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 4/17/2006 12:16:34 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 12:30:45 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Yes Bita you did miss the point of that as well, though I thought throwing the 12th order in would have made it clear. I am having fun with this thread. There is an underlying worthwhile point to it, mainly that the word "true" is often used online to either elevate somebody's way as the proper way, or to castigate someone for not seeing things the way the speaker does. But mostly i am poking fun at the practice rather than seriously proposing any sort of ban. As I said, I would not use the word that way, and I will indeed make fun of those who do.

However, as to whether it actually matters who calls themsleves a true slave or a true asshole (yup, that's me), I really don't give a good goddamn. I have always, and will always feel free to flame anybody who I deem to be a twit and worth flaming....you may have noticed I am not always so very polite to those I think are twits.

Go ahead and label yourselves whatever the fuck tickles your fancy, none of it means a damned thing online, to me or to anybody else really, and since I don't know you in the real world, it really makes no difference at all. Now go look for your sense of humour, cause you seem to have misplaced it today.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 1:04:08 PM   
enthralled


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/13/2005
From: Nashville, Tn
Status: offline 		*snickers* . . . uhmmm, does this mean I don't have to bow to all the Doms with the word 'TRUE' in thier repertoire???? <joking> . . . lol

enthralled

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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 1:28:29 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

But mostly i am poking fun at the practice rather than seriously proposing any sort of ban. As I said, I would not use the word that way, and I will indeed make fun of those who do.


Ah, my mistake. When you said the word should be banned, I thought you meant the word should be banned. Silly me for giving you credit for saying what you mean or meaning what you say.

Do be careful when you go on your flaming campaigns though as you might actually catch a few books on fire while you toss those flames around. Censorship has an ugly way of spreading.

Pfft..

Celeste


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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 1:48:42 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...don't we have a duty to ourselves to police the online side of the house? Any bad thing that haapens here is  pinned to the whole  community, no matter if we care about or participate in online activites. If we allow online sites to become mines for preditors don't we all become outlaws? One need only remember how strongly the society went ofter swingers during the 80's to know what is in store for us if we don't clean up our act.


IC,
No, in fact we have a "duty" not to especially on-line. If "obscenity" had a specific definition would there be more or less access to information on the internet? As soon as we've established our "police force" more draconian action will be legitimized by the mere fact that  the words within our laws would have more than one interpretation. A comparable argument is what occurred in television. For many years each network had its own "standards and practices", and in effect, self censored. When the FCC thought it was to their advantage they used the concept to fine the networks because their internal censorship wasn't sufficient.

The Janet Jackson 2.3 second nipple exposure was simply the lightening rod. As a consequence, reruns of NYPD Blue from the early 90's can't be shown uncut. By defining a "standard" you define a fault. Context and interpretation become irrelevant. Would Alex Haley's "Roots" be allowed or the series funded if it included the same nude scenes it did in 1977? If the networks weren't as irrelevant as they are this would be a bigger issue.

As long as their are places to hunt there will be predators without conscience among the more conscientious hunters. I remember the story of the seal saved from an Alaskan oil spill. Volunteers spent 6 months of their time, and over $150,000 of treatment resources on cleaning and rehabilitating that one seal. On the day he was to be released, with a crowd on the beach wishing him will, and with a bank cameras and reporters present to record the event. The seal was released from a boat and promptly eaten by an killer whale before he made it 100 yards. The point is, as much as you'd like to protect the naive and uninitiated, you can't protect or warrant against bad things happening to people no matter the intention or the amount of resources dedicated to the project.

Better to address the up close and personal world of physical contact and meeting. There the predators and frauds affect pain and suffering that lasts beyond the residual glow of a computer screen.

These are relationships we're discussing, not policy or procedure. A person or persons content in their relationship can not be considered "wrong" by outside standards. Everything you read at CM or any other site, is a reference, a concept, an idea, a suggestion. There are pages and pages on countless sites containing suggestions about how to keep yourself safe, how to avoid being hurt, how to avoid being killed. You can pick any one of these authoritarian sources at random and make it be "dogma". Just for kicks, how would you prevent someone from breaking these laws? When a person ignores all advise and travels to meet someone half way across the country whose last name is still a mystery because; "Masters don't need to tell a slave anything!" Which one of the two involved in the story would your "law" arrest?

By the way, from my vantage point, the "swingers" from the 80's are doing quite well. Their numbers are booming. Their annual national convention every year in Vegas attracts about 10,000 of them. If you want to see hypocrisy in action you should attend one. In the same hotel where you pay to see naked female breasts for $50 a ticket plus the 2 drink minimum; consenting adults had to cover the offending female "nipplidge" with black electrical tape.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 2:25:09 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		mmmmmmm just the word?  why stop there why not go further and eliminate some books of little "True" value... mmmmm seems to remember a little fantical group doing that... can't put my finger on who they where... but maybe somebody remembers.

Frankly,  Words are just words... and but I do enjoy someone that can use them in effective manner to communicate their thoughts.  I always enjoy being asked and asking questions of someone using words to increase ones understanding.

Now for the word "True"  will... I try to be "True to My way" which is ONLY.. My way... others will find their own way.... and great for those that can be "True to themselves, whatever way that maybe!" 

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 3:05:53 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

But mostly i am poking fun at the practice rather than seriously proposing any sort of ban. As I said, I would not use the word that way, and I will indeed make fun of those who do.


Ah, my mistake. When you said the word should be banned, I thought you meant the word should be banned. Silly me for giving you credit for saying what you mean or meaning what you say.

Do be careful when you go on your flaming campaigns though as you might actually catch a few books on fire while you toss those flames around. Censorship has an ugly way of spreading.

Pfft..

Celeste



Maybe he was using a different definition of the word "banned"

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: True or false? - 4/17/2006 3:46:06 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Nothing wrong with the words "true" and "real", as long as they are used in the right context.

If you are referring to what you, yourself, do, then yes, it is real and true.  Just don't assign what you do to me, unless you know that we have common interests and viewpoints.  Those things we mesh on would be true and/or real for the both of us, but on the ones that are not meshing, then they wouldn't be appropriate and perhaps even pointless to utter.

Just depends on how you look at it.  Unfortunately, those that throw those words around the most are frequently stock holders in Bed, Bath and Beyond. LOL


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Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children.

Murderer?! Murderer! Let me tell you something about murder. It's fun; it's easy; you gonna learn ALL about it. - Tin Tin

Can you be more amusing?

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Profile   Post #: 60
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