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RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 12:43:37 PM   
realwhiteknight


Posts: 428
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Jesus why can't people separate these issues? Typical ultra-liberal nonsensical bullcrap. History can *not* be 'fixed'. Geographical boundaries and past political conflicts can *not* be redressed in new laws or reform, we can only take into account the here and now, and potential future problems based on the past. Learn about history, and move on. We can't give Texas back, people, so freakin deal with it.



So by your reasoning poland still does not exist.


You are not following my point at all. You are making an argument from emotion, because you are angry over something that happened over a century ago- under different circumstances and different people and a different time. I don't give a crap about Poland or that it happened. What exactly are you arguing? You want us to give Texas back?


_____________________________

I carry a log - yes. Is it funny to you? It is not to me.

Behind all things are reasons. Reasons can even explain the absurd. Do we have the time to learn the reasons behind the human being's varied behavior? I think not. Some take the time.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 1:06:32 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1751
Status: offline 		I have to pretty much agree, what difference does this make with what is going on today?   They ARE coming here for a better opportunity, and yes it is a great opportunity for them - AS long as they do it legally and LEARN English. 

(in reply to realwhiteknight)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 1:24:03 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


That is why it's a non sequitur. I highly doubt Mexicans are coming over here to redress the wrongs of the past. Your point is laughable.

They are coming because of economic problems in their *own* country, whereas our country offers economic opportunity to them.




Here is a website of one of our local bigots who would disagree with your position.


http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm



Honestly, why would I bother listening to a 'bigot'?





One does not have to agree with hitler to read mien kampf.
I offered you the website to show you that there are those who would disagree with your opinion about why some people from mexico come to this country.

(in reply to realwhiteknight)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 2:01:22 PM   
realwhiteknight


Posts: 428
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

One of our laws is based upon how you are allowed to be here to begin with. Cant follow that law? why should we assume you will follow any other law?


That is pretty much what "they" said to martin luther king concernig his approach to civil disobediance.


Two of the tenets of civil disobedience are:
1. Breaking the law openly
2. Nonviolence, specifically including not resisting or fleeing arrest.

The illegal alien invasion doesn't even come close to MLK.


Analogies aren't his strong suit. Personally, I find it a bit offensive. A moral principle cannot be applied to any and every situation. People from other countries entering at will are NOT *citizens* fighting against oppression for the betterment of their society.


_____________________________

I carry a log - yes. Is it funny to you? It is not to me.

Behind all things are reasons. Reasons can even explain the absurd. Do we have the time to learn the reasons behind the human being's varied behavior? I think not. Some take the time.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 2:34:00 PM   
realwhiteknight


Posts: 428
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


That is why it's a non sequitur. I highly doubt Mexicans are coming over here to redress the wrongs of the past. Your point is laughable.

They are coming because of economic problems in their *own* country, whereas our country offers economic opportunity to them.




Here is a website of one of our local bigots who would disagree with your position.


http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm



Honestly, why would I bother listening to a 'bigot'?





One does not have to agree with hitler to read mien kampf.
I offered you the website to show you that there are those who would disagree with your opinion about why some people from mexico come to this country.


Hitler led the largest known genocide in history (or one of them?), which he outlined in Mein Kampf- this is why people read the Mein Kampf, for socio-historical reasons. We read him not *despite* what he did, but *because of* what he did. Why else *would* you read a virulently angry anti-Semite?

Not being a historian or ethicist, why would *I* waste time reading Hitler when I could read Nietzsche or Dostoevsky? Or hell, even Harry Potter.

Therefore, why would I bother listening to some random street racist if not for the shock factor/sensationalism. I doubt this would make your *or* my point.

< Message edited by realwhiteknight -- 7/26/2010 2:48:54 PM >

_____________________________

I carry a log - yes. Is it funny to you? It is not to me.

Behind all things are reasons. Reasons can even explain the absurd. Do we have the time to learn the reasons behind the human being's varied behavior? I think not. Some take the time.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 2:41:50 PM   
realwhiteknight


Posts: 428
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

I have to pretty much agree, what difference does this make with what is going on today?   They ARE coming here for a better opportunity, and yes it is a great opportunity for them - AS long as they do it legally and LEARN English. 


Yes, it's a totally separate issue- he's what they call 'arguing from emotion'- which never makes for a logical argument or much efficient problem-solving. He seems to be angry over injustices of the past, things that no one can fix (unless they had a time machine)- not about today, or the future.

I don't think it ever bodes well for any group of people to come here en masse and not give back to the society by 'assimilating' at least somewhat or trying to do things the right way, it is disrespectful and shows a lack of character of the people, imo. Every single group of people here today have done this, descendents of slaves, Europeans, Asians, recent immigrants, etc... they put their time in to gain acceptance, learned the language, shared their culture with the non-immigrants, etc. The problem is really that I don't know if the Mexicans and others illegally working here are really *trying* or wanting to become citizens, or if they are just staying here for a while to make a bunch of money which converts to alot more back in Mexico- then returning to their families back in Mexico- rather than staying to bring them over the correct way.

Argue and work for immigration reform then, not amnesty for such a large amount of people- we don't know who they are, and this bothers me, to be honest, in a post-911 world. Hey, I was there on 9-11 and still live in Prime Target Area #1 for alot of crap to go down, so it bothers me that people still have this hippie liberal ideology of letting whoever-whatever-whenever into our country without any sort of responsibility to report anything to our government or respect for our laws..if this makes any sense. It's the general principle of the thing.


< Message edited by realwhiteknight -- 7/26/2010 2:51:42 PM >

_____________________________

I carry a log - yes. Is it funny to you? It is not to me.

Behind all things are reasons. Reasons can even explain the absurd. Do we have the time to learn the reasons behind the human being's varied behavior? I think not. Some take the time.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 2:45:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

One of our laws is based upon how you are allowed to be here to begin with. Cant follow that law? why should we assume you will follow any other law?


That is pretty much what "they" said to martin luther king concernig his approach to civil disobediance.


Who are "they" and show me a source where "they" said that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:09:21 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

mlk broke the existing law and was in response to tazz saying that all the illegals have to do is follow the law.


I got that.
What I'm saying is that comparing the civil disobedience of King (which I even partially defined fo you) to the clandestine, dishonest, identy-stealing, job-killing, wage-lowering, and occasional violence of the illegal alien invasion is sorta like comparing jaywalking to the Holocaust.
Which you didn't get at all, dude.



So you look on the racism lynching and murders against blacks as nothing more than jaywalking while the misdomeanor of illegally crossing the boarder is equivilant to the holocaust.
What you refuse to notice is that those of you who constantly carp on (follow the law) want to dance and waffle when it is taken in the context of the real world.
You are no different than faubus or barnett who demanded that all "dem ni**ers have to do is obey the law and we wont sick de dawgs on em".
Now it is no longer pc for you to take that line concerning blacks but feel quite justified in using the same tactic on the illegals.
This begs the question "why are you not as vociferous about prosecutiong the employers, which would absolutely bring an end to people crossing the boarder illegally."
Oh wait... perhaps it is your bigotry?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:13:04 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Jesus why can't people separate these issues? Typical ultra-liberal nonsensical bullcrap. History can *not* be 'fixed'. Geographical boundaries and past political conflicts can *not* be redressed in new laws or reform, we can only take into account the here and now, and potential future problems based on the past. Learn about history, and move on. We can't give Texas back, people, so freakin deal with it.



So by your reasoning poland still does not exist.


You are not following my point at all.
So far the only point you have made is that you are a "pc bigot"

You are making an argument from emotion, because you are angry over something that happened over a century ago- under different circumstances and different people and a different time.

No emoton here just a factual statement of history

I don't give a crap about Poland or that it happened. What exactly are you arguing?

I am sorry I was not clear. The relationship between russia and poland were not significantly different than the relationship between the u.s. and mexico.


You want us to give Texas back?

If someone stole your car would you want them to give it back?



(in reply to realwhiteknight)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:13:26 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Whoa... HUGE difference here, thompson. Blacks werent sneaking across a border, they were dragged here in chains. They had NO choice in coming, unlike the illegals we are speaking of. No one is sicking the dogs on anyone. What we are saying is... be legal or be gone. This isnt the 60's, as much as you seem to want to forget that.

And while you are harping on the federal government following the laws they established, they are developing new programs to identify those who are here illegally. Seems the government likes the two prong approach as well.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:15:06 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

The same is true with the state of arizona it has continually refused to enforce the law.


And that's a crying shame.
Hopefully they will enforce 1070.



Which do you think would be more effective at stopping illegal immigration?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:23:22 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


That is why it's a non sequitur. I highly doubt Mexicans are coming over here to redress the wrongs of the past. Your point is laughable.

They are coming because of economic problems in their *own* country, whereas our country offers economic opportunity to them.




Here is a website of one of our local bigots who would disagree with your position.


http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm



Honestly, why would I bother listening to a 'bigot'?





One does not have to agree with hitler to read mien kampf.
I offered you the website to show you that there are those who would disagree with your opinion about why some people from mexico come to this country.


Hitler led the largest known genocide in history (or one of them?), which he outlined in Mein Kampf- this is why people read the Mein Kampf, for socio-historical reasons. We read him not *despite* what he did, but *because of* what he did. Why else *would* you read a virulently angry anti-Semite?

Perhaps to find out what was on his mine.

Not being a historian or ethicist, why would *I* waste time reading Hitler when I could read Nietzsche or Dostoevsky? Or hell, even Harry Potter.

Perhaps if you were to read dostoevsky you might garner some insight as to why the russian government locked him up for ten years

Therefore, why would I bother listening to some random street racist if not for the shock factor/sensationalism. I doubt this would make your *or* my point.

Because this particular bigot discusses the concept of aztlan which contradicts your opinion that all mexican illegals cross the border for economic reasons.


(in reply to realwhiteknight)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:27:58 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

One of our laws is based upon how you are allowed to be here to begin with. Cant follow that law? why should we assume you will follow any other law?


That is pretty much what "they" said to martin luther king concernig his approach to civil disobediance.


Who are "they" and show me a source where "they" said that.


Perhaps you might peruse the musings of orville faubus, ross barnett or george wallace.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:31:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I asked you for a source, not a listing of names. Since you know the names, post the quotes.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:39:11 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Whoa... HUGE difference here, thompson. Blacks werent sneaking across a border, they were dragged here in chains.

I am not talking about blacks sneaking across borders I am talking about blacks sitting in "whites only spaces" I am sorry you did not understand that.


They had NO choice in coming, unlike the illegals we are speaking of. No one is sicking the dogs on anyone.

You have not noticed anyone posting about mining the border, shotting mexicans or putting their boot in a mexican ass?

What we are saying is... be legal or be gone. This isnt the 60's, as much as you seem to want to forget that.

You have very clearly presented your well researched data to show the severe penalities for hiring those who cross the border illegally. Anyone who doesn't believe that if those laws were enforced there would be no illegal alien problem in the u.s. has a shoe size larger than their i.q.

And while you are harping on the federal government following the laws they established,

No I am pointing out that the state of arizona has the obligation and the ability to enforce those laws and they choose not to do so.

they are developing new programs to identify those who are here illegally. Seems the government likes the two prong approach as well.

As your research clearly pointed out that is old news. The feds regularly notify employers of s/s nunbers that are "irregular" and the employer has ten days I believe to correct the "irregularity" when the employer does not do so your cited cases show that the feds took action.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:40:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Either correct your quotes or i wont read your responses when written this was, thompson. Im not here to make things easier for you, nor will i waste my time picking out your responses among others.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:41:25 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I asked you for a source, not a listing of names. Since you know the names, post the quotes.




Now you are being intentionally obdurant and obtuse

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:43:14 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Either correct your quotes or i wont read your responses when written this was, thompson. Im not here to make things easier for you, nor will i waste my time picking out your responses among others.



If you are unwilling or unable to hold up your end of a discussion that would seem to be your problem and not mine.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:44:17 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its not my problem that you are lazy.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Az immigration law case begins - 7/26/2010 3:50:49 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its not my problem that you are lazy.


Perhaps you could just ignore me
Then you could justify your laziness

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 180
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