RE: You're Fired!!!

RE: You're Fired!!! (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 8:54:37 AM)
You can almost always find a reason to fire someone. You have to be careful and document everything in cast they go to the labor board. I have had dealings with the labor board over an "unjust" firing. The first thing they asked for was proof that I had the same set of guidelines for all the people who worked for me.

TreasureKY -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 8:55:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Treasure, I will give you credit where it is due. You absolutely put a good deal of effort into your original. Probably much more than necessary. Depending on the position of the employee, unless there is specifically a contract involved, most states are considered "at will" when it comes to employment. In other words, unless specified, neither the employer or the employee are under obligation to continue the situation that is made under a verbal agreement. For the employee, it means you can quit and are not legally bound to return to work. It also means that, technically, your employer doesn't really have to have a reason to fire you. Most companies do have a tiered disciplinary procedure, but it really isn't necessary. All that is necessary from a legal standpoint is to say, "your services are no longer required". I didn't look at the other thread to see what state the story comes from, but if it is an employment at will state, as long as the employer did not break a federal discrimination guideline, he's probably clear. LP, you are right, of course. But in the original post and the one I mentioned above, there was little understanding of that. Many were sure it was illegal.

Jeffff -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 8:57:18 AM)
It is. You are wrong. I know you never like to hear it but in this case it is true. You are wrong.

laurell3 -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 8:58:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Treasure, I will give you credit where it is due. You absolutely put a good deal of effort into your original. Probably much more than necessary. Depending on the position of the employee, unless there is specifically a contract involved, most states are considered "at will" when it comes to employment. In other words, unless specified, neither the employer or the employee are under obligation to continue the situation that is made under a verbal agreement. For the employee, it means you can quit and are not legally bound to return to work. It also means that, technically, your employer doesn't really have to have a reason to fire you. Most companies do have a tiered disciplinary procedure, but it really isn't necessary. All that is necessary from a legal standpoint is to say, "your services are no longer required". I didn't look at the other thread to see what state the story comes from, but if it is an employment at will state, as long as the employer did not break a federal discrimination guideline, he's probably clear. While I agree with the general statements LP, even "at will" employees have a wrongful termination claim for termination due to public policy where the state in question has indicated their intent to recognize the behavior in question as one of those public policy exceptions. As the state in question has in fact criminalized the action for corporations, there is a very good argument that they in fact have displayed that public policy exception. In addition, if this business operates with any government funds at all, they may be subject to a lawsuit due to civil rights violations for suppressing someone's constitutional right to vote. I sure wouldn't want to be this employer. Contrary to the belief that if you cannot specifically find an exact statute on point prohibiting the behavior one is safe, skilled attorneys and law suits don't actually work that way.

TreasureKY -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 8:59:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife So if you are a woman I can fire you at will because of that fact? Not if you say it outright. Then, I have a recourse under discrimination, due to federal guidelines. If you kept your mouth shut about the real reason you were letting Me go, any case that I would file, the burden of proof would be on Me to say that you violated Federal Law. Depending on the situation that may not be hard to prove. Regardless, this nonsense about employees having no recourse is just that. No one here has said that employees have no recourse. What has been outlined is what is considered legal and what is not. Also, having recourse does not guarantee it will be successful. That is life, I'm afraid.

Musicmystery -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 8:59:52 AM)
quote: You can almost always find a reason to fire someone. You have to be careful and document everything in case they go to the labor board. You can also almost always find ways to encourage them to quit on their own.

TreasureKY -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:00:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff It is. You are wrong. I know you never like to hear it but in this case it is true. You are wrong. lol... Just don't give up your day job for one in Human Resources or the law.

LadyPact -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:00:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Depending on the situation that may not be hard to prove. Regardless, this nonsense about employees having no recourse is just that. You may be quite interested in what very little is actually considered discrimination. I took a look to verify your location. You do live in an employment at will state. Unless you have a contract, you are not entitled to remain employed.

LadyPact -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:06:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff It is. You are wrong. I know you never like to hear it but in this case it is true. You are wrong. We're going to have to disagree on this. While the right to vote is absolutely covered by law, it does not say that you are entitled to remain employed because of your choice of candidate.

TreasureKY -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:06:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Treasure, I will give you credit where it is due. You absolutely put a good deal of effort into your original. Probably much more than necessary. Depending on the position of the employee, unless there is specifically a contract involved, most states are considered "at will" when it comes to employment. In other words, unless specified, neither the employer or the employee are under obligation to continue the situation that is made under a verbal agreement. For the employee, it means you can quit and are not legally bound to return to work. It also means that, technically, your employer doesn't really have to have a reason to fire you. Most companies do have a tiered disciplinary procedure, but it really isn't necessary. All that is necessary from a legal standpoint is to say, "your services are no longer required". I didn't look at the other thread to see what state the story comes from, but if it is an employment at will state, as long as the employer did not break a federal discrimination guideline, he's probably clear. While I agree with the general statements LP, even "at will" employees have a wrongful termination claim for termination due to public policy where the state in question has indicated their intent to recognize the behavior in question as one of those public policy exceptions. As the state in question has in fact criminalized the action for corporations, there is a very good argument that they in fact have displayed that public policy exception. In addition, if this business operates with any government funds at all, they may be subject to a lawsuit due to civil rights violations for suppressing someone's constitutional right to vote. I sure wouldn't want to be this employer. Contrary to the belief that if you cannot specifically find an exact statute on point prohibiting the behavior one is safe, skilled attorneys and law suits don't actually work that way. Laurell... you do have a point and I'm sure there could be many valid legal arguments made. Unfortunately, what is being missed here by many is that we aren't talking about compulsory employment. If an employer does something that you do not like, you have every right to leave that employment. Employment is not slavery. No one is holding a gun to your head saying that you must comply and stay employed there. You also have means available to try to affect changes, but there are no guarantees that you will be successful.

TreasureKY -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:11:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: You can almost always find a reason to fire someone. You have to be careful and document everything in case they go to the labor board. You can also almost always find ways to encourage them to quit on their own. Yes, but that can be a slippery slope on its own. The best way is to simply fire them. Unless there is an employment contract involved, as an employer you have every right to simply discontinue employing them. Just make sure you aren't doing it to discriminate based on a protected class.

littlewonder -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:19:34 AM)
I work at a government job. My boss's position is as an elected official. She is a republican. Every year she goes around asking people if they voted. If you don't answer "yes" and if she finds out somehow that you voted something other than republican and not for her you can pretty much count your job to be short-lived. She doesn't have to say why she fired you. She usually uses the excuse of the inability to do the job correctly or some other vague reason. One could try to fight this but it's going to be a long hard battle to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.

LadyPact -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:20:26 AM)
I wouldn't want to be this employer, either. However, it would have been easy enough to dismiss employees without My reasons of why (who they voted for specifically) ever coming into question. All I would have had to do was keep quiet as to My real reason for letting them go. If I was really smart, I would attempt to try to replace the workers with those who fit similar distinctions to the ones I had fired. Get rid of a 25 year old female Democrat? Replace her with someone in the same age range and gender. Of course, you have to remember that most employees aren't perfect to begin with. Almost anyone can 'find' a reason within company guidelines to get rid of somebody if it suits their purpose.

laurell3 -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:21:10 AM)
You're missing the point. Just FYI the federal law under intimidating someone or infringing with their right to vote makes this employer's actions arguably a felony. But that's not a contract issue (although I sure wouldn't want to be them): Section 11 (b) of the 1965 Voting Rights Act as amended 43 U.S.C. Section 1971(b) provides: No person, whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any other person for the purpose of interfering with the right of such other person to vote or to vote as he may choose, or of causing such other person to vote for, or not to vote for, any candidate for the office of President, Vice President, presidential elector, Member of the Senate, or Member of the House of Representatives, Delegates or Commissioners from the Territories or possessions, at any general, special, or primary election held solely or in part for the purpose of selecting or electing any such candidate. With regard to the contract issue. The employment law says, even at will employees can be considered to have a contract with basic provisions excluding termination for public policy reasons when a state exercises their right to recognize a public policy exception. (and no I cannot cite it today without paying for it, which I won't do...maybe later in the week I can for free if I bother a friend to pull it up). This state has in fact exercised that right with their statute criminalizing the behavior. Thus, although yes generally no contract exists, here, one has been created by the state right. It isn't really as simple as just saying is there a statute. The law does not work that way in the vast majority of civil cases.

laurell3 -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:23:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I work at a government job. My boss's position is as an elected official. She is a republican. Every year she goes around asking people if they voted. If you don't answer "yes" and if she finds out somehow that you voted something other than republican and not for her you can pretty much count your job to be short-lived. She doesn't have to say why she fired you. She usually uses the excuse of the inability to do the job correctly or some other vague reason. One could try to fight this but it's going to be a long hard battle to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's not beyond a shadow of a doubt, most civil cases are by a preponderance of the evidence and arguably her behavior is infringing upon her employees rights to vote unimpaired. I do not think you have a "right" to not vote though that would be recognized anyway. In your case, this is government action and all the civil liberties you are entitled to as a citizen apply as well. I sure as hell would be shutting down that behavior if I was her supervisor.

laurell3 -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:26:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Depending on the situation that may not be hard to prove. Regardless, this nonsense about employees having no recourse is just that. You may be quite interested in what very little is actually considered discrimination. I took a look to verify your location. You do live in an employment at will state. Unless you have a contract, you are not entitled to remain employed. This is absolutely true. The protected classes are well defined. There really isn't any room to slide another one in as there are so many cases establishing what is and is not discrimination. That does not mean there is no successful lawsuit however.

realwhiteknight -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:28:46 AM)
quote: ition quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven .. And you are correct that states may add on their own categories, so that you are presenting only the minimums required by the Federal laws. I think there must also be a high variation among state laws- I am sure the state this guy lives in probably has much more lenient discrimination laws regarding firing/hiring and political affiliations. I am not sure the OP necessarily knows the ins and outs of such laws for all the states- that would seem to me to be the type of thing a lawyer and not a HR manager would ever know. Also, we have no way of knowing that truckinslave was being honest and actually mentioned why he fired those employees, maybe he just told them it was for different reasons, and only bragged on here about what his real reason was- just to be the badass. OR, it could be that his firing of them could be seen legally in the context of those employees disclosing personal information or talking politics at work or even creating a combative political atmosphere at work. I'm sure the law allows for firing based on an employee's behavior being negative or disruptive, rather than their political affiliation.

laurell3 -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:34:28 AM)
Of course, and it is always the case that the baseline question of do I have a cause of action is much different than the following question of can I prove my case?

TreasureKY -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:35:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Wow..... so you think firing someone for voting the way you don't like is not preventing them from excercising their right to vote? By your standards an employer could them send out a memo informing the employees that if they vote for anyone other than his candidate they will be terminated? You are kinda thick aren't you. I wanted to address this particular comment separately. First, it isn't my standards. It is the law. Yes, I could send out a memo telling employees that they must vote the way I want or they will be fired. Would be a bit stupid, but I could if I wanted to. Now, yes... this does sound very wrong. One would immediately think this is illegal, but it is not. I'm not keeping you from voting. That would be illegal. But I could make it a requirement for working for me that you must support the candidate of my choosing. I'm not saying it isn't morally reprehensible. But our laws aren't set up to govern every little aspect of our lives and personalities. So, okay... let's say you do get a memo like that from your employer. First, you have every right to leave that employer. Second, your vote is secret. Your employer cannot accompany you into the voting booth. Only you can tell your employer who you actually voted for. If you really want to continue to be employed by someone who would tell you how to vote, then lie to them. Finally, you could legally challenge your employer. You might prevail, you might not... but no one is stopping you.

realwhiteknight -> RE: You're Fired!!! (7/25/2010 9:37:55 AM)
They would have never hired the person to begin with.

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