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RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 1:31:38 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?


Because I have seen first hand, how the Labour Unions have played a huge part in the closing of manufacturing plants that employed hundreds, and at times thousands, of people.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 1:36:02 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Prices would not go down overnight, but they would go down. Want to know why? (smile you're going to like this) Because of greed! You see some greedy bastard at one of the corporations will figure out that without all those tax expenses he can lower his price some and sell a lot more product. By selling a lot more product he makes more revenue (even at at a smaller profit margin). Then the other corporations have to follow suit. The markets actually do work people, if you let them. They have a long history of doing so.


Perhaps you could give us some examples of this happening in your lifetime.


Also, government controlled markets have a long history of failure. Look at North Korea vs South Korea,

Perhaps you might enlighten us about the difference between the two koreas? Tell us how much foriegn aid the u.s. gave s. korea? Tell us how much the s. koreans spend towards their national defense and how much the u.s. contributes to their national defense.

East Germany vs West Germany (back when they were split),

Perhaps you might tell us what the purpose of the berlin wall was? Perhaps you might tell us about the level of reparations that the soviet union exacted on e. germany? Perhaps you might tell us about the level of u.s. aid to w. germany.

or the USSR.

Perhaps you might enlighten us as to the relative differences in economic capacity between the u.s. and the ussr say in steel production,food production, public works (number and size of hydro-electric instalations, miles of highway and railroad built). Then you might also enlighten us as to how much the soviets had to spend to repair the damage done to their infrastructure by wwII as opposed to the u.s. Please do not forget to factor in the 25 million dead as the result of wwII as opposed to the 250 thousand suffered by the u.s.
If you are going to make comparisons perhaps it would do you well to know what you are talking about before you stuff both feet in your mouth.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 7/29/2010 1:42:18 PM >

(in reply to toxic66)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 1:40:05 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?


Because I have seen first hand, how the Labour Unions have played a huge part in the closing of manufacturing plants that employed hundreds, and at times thousands, of people.




The union seeks to increase the pay for the worker so management goes offshore for cheap labor to increase the pay for management and somehow that is the union's fault...perhaps we should just abolish the 13th ammendment and all the jobs will come back.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 1:52:59 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		While we're on that one, the unions have always tried to stop employers giving jobs to illegals who'll undercut their members, haven't they?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 1:53:50 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?


Because I have seen first hand, how the Labour Unions have played a huge part in the closing of manufacturing plants that employed hundreds, and at times thousands, of people.



Yes, your contempt for unions is well-known.

So explain what the alternative should be.

Unions exist to level the playing field.

Are you aware of the labor problems that have been going on at American Airlines for years?

This is the latest from this past April:


Hundreds of American Airlines' union workers chanted "Stop corporate greed!" and "Share the pain!" during informational picketing Thursday at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport.

Members of Transport Workers Union Local 513, marching outside Terminal D, said it makes no sense that American can award multimillion-dollar bonuses to executives while the company loses money and trims its operations.

"We're completely fed up with corporate greed," said Darrin Pierce, president of Local 513, which represents about 4,000 fleet-service workers and mechanics at D/FW. "We want American Airlines to do the right thing. If the airline is fragile and we can't do anything but buckle our belts tighter, then they have to do it also. But if they're exercising bonuses? It sounds like double talk to me."

AMR Corp., parent company of American Airlines, has not yet released the proxy statement that will detail executive compensation for 2009. Traditionally, the company has issued its proxy after its first-quarter earnings announcement, which is scheduled for Wednesday.

In 2008, American's top five executives received $13.4 million in compensation, and about 1,000 top executives and managers were awarded $6.5 million in stock bonuses.

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/04/15/2118728/transport-workers-union-to-american.html#ixzz0v6eDs1vK




< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/29/2010 1:56:34 PM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 2:19:50 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps you should investigate why the  Sorgel Square D plant in Milwaukee closed.

Why Charlie Denny walked out of a bargaining meeting with Union reps and told the North American VP of operations to "shut it down". Effectively killing approx 2,000 jobs.

They also HAD a plant in Oshkosh. Had being the key word.

Cedar Rapids Iowa......no longer a manufacturing facility. 800 jobs gone.

North American Airlines......another greedy union and yes, greedy company collide. Company wins, employees lose.

I am NOT saying the initial concept of labour unions was bad, to the contrary actually. The problem is that they became greedy and unrealistic. They quit working for their members best interests.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 2:31:10 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I just want to add....

I am NOT suggesting there isn't a cancer of corporate greed, that there isn't wayyyyy too many extremely over paid chiefs. That is obvious.

What I am saying is that you don't take a body that has a cancer and treat the cancer by putting concrete boots on it, tossing it in the lake and expecting it to not only swim, but also cure the cancer.

Demanding too much for employees does not get rid of the chiefs greed. It only expands the greed and it is short term. Ultimately the body you knew was cancerous will sink/die.

A company that is topsided and struggling financially, demanding more money of it for the bottom side isn't the answer. While it might seem a nice tit for tat, it still does not fix the problem. It only makes the bottom side feel better temporarily. It doesn't get rid of the topside problem. The topside, with the ultimate power, will just whack off the bothersome bottom side. Because they too, are greedy short term people. They make their millions per their contracts, collect their bonuses and leave the empty shell of whats left for someone else to clean up.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/29/2010 2:32:19 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 4:45:56 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		In 2009, 7.9 million public sector employees belonged to a union,
compared with 7.4 million union workers in the private sector. The
union membership rate for public sector workers (37.4 percent) was
substantially higher than the rate for private industry workers (7.2
percent).

Only 7.2% of private industry workers are unionized. The numbers just do not support your blame the unions posture. Really, you should get a new whipping boy. The one you are ranting at has been beaten near to death. No, sorry. I am not available tonight. Some other time perhaps.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 4:47:46 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I am NOT saying the initial concept of labour unions was bad, to the contrary actually. The problem is that they became greedy and unrealistic. They quit working for their members best interests.


I am at a loss to understand you here. What exactly is greedy and unrealistic for a worker to expect for their labor and time?

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 4:53:00 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Perhaps you should investigate why the  Sorgel Square D plant in Milwaukee closed.

Why Charlie Denny walked out of a bargaining meeting with Union reps and told the North American VP of operations to "shut it down". Effectively killing approx 2,000 jobs.

They also HAD a plant in Oshkosh. Had being the key word.

Cedar Rapids Iowa......no longer a manufacturing facility. 800 jobs gone.

North American Airlines......another greedy union and yes, greedy company collide. Company wins, employees lose.

I am NOT saying the initial concept of labour unions was bad, to the contrary actually. The problem is that they became greedy and unrealistic. They quit working for their members best interests.



You haven't given me enough details to comment on the situation you describe, and I don't feel the burden is on me to research it.

If you have a point to make then provide the evidence.

As for American Airlines this was only the latest issue going back to a long stream of abuses.

Back when Don Carty was CEO AA received numerous concessions from its unions.

The very next day executive bonuses were revealed.

What you are trying to argue is that employees should kiss their employer's ass and just be grateful for a job.

American Airlines kept execs' perks a secret

Associated Press
Apr. 18, 2003 12:00 AM
 
FORT WORTH - One day after American Airlines employees agreed to annual cuts of $1.8 billion, the cooperative spirit turned acrimonious Thursday as union leaders expressed outrage over newly disclosed perks granted to executives.


One angry union leader said if workers had known earlier about a pension trust created last year to protect executives' benefits in the event of a bankruptcy filing, they might have voted against the steep concessions intended to keep the world's largest carrier out of Chapter 11.


The executive perks, which included huge bonuses for a few top executives, were disclosed late Tuesday in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The filing was made after the scheduled end of voting on the concessions.


"We are appalled and just disgusted. It's the equivalent of an obscene gesture from management," said John Ward, president of the flight attendants union. Flight attendants initially rejected their share of the $1.8 billion cost-cutting plan but reversed themselves Wednesday after the company extended the original deadline.


James C. Little, leader of the ground workers union, said he was considering whether to withhold signing the concessions contract that his members narrowly approved.


"If members had known about these compensation agreements, there would have been a higher turnout of 'no' votes," Little said.


According to the SEC filing, the company's board agreed to fund 60 percent of the pension trust established for 45 top executives and it approved bonuses for six top executives if they stay through January 2005. The bonuses would be double each executive's pay.






(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 6:00:37 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		FR-

In response to the original post, offshoring didn't occur because of high tax rates, and won't be cured by tax breaks; if you have a business that can be done with workers earning $2.00 per day in Malaysia, getting a cut on the corporate tax rate won't come close to making it worthwhile to set up shop in Indiana.

American workers are competing with workers around the world; there isn't any way to change that fact, and we probably don't want to. The idea that we can enjoy cheap Chinese made products while not competing with those very Chinese workers is a fantasy.

But there is hope- I was actually approached a few years ago by a architectural drafting firm in India that wanted us to outsorce our work to them; their rates we obscenely low, and we did spend time thinking about it.

But we realized that low wages also come with a price tag; our employees knew more, were more creative, and the collaborative atmosphere of having people physically sitting next to each other made for a better work product- one that we could sell for higher rates.

The solution is not to scramble like starving dogs fighting over a scrap; the solution is to produce better educated people, higher skilled workers who make a product that commands higher prices.

Call centers didn't go to India just because the people there are cheaper; they went there because India has a very high rate of educated English speaking workers.

Again- EDUCATED workers

Of course, to compete with India means we would have to commit to universal education where everyone, regardless of income, was assured an education and skill.



< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 7/29/2010 6:01:51 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/29/2010 6:51:17 PM   
Brain


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I think the United States should not trade with any country that has a minimum wage lower than the minimum wage in the United States and the same goes for Canada. Corporations already have a lot of cash and they did not need any more tax breaks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Outsourcing of American jobs is a hot topic, I have seen in come up in a few topics.

What would you agree to if it would bring jobs back to the United States?

Tax breaks for corporations to cut down on labor costs?

The corporate tax rate on the Federal level is 15 to 35% dependent on total revenues.

What about minimum wage laws? Would those be on the block for change?


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 4:28:48 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I am NOT saying the initial concept of labour unions was bad, to the contrary actually. The problem is that they became greedy and unrealistic. They quit working for their members best interests.


I am at a loss to understand you here. What exactly is greedy and unrealistic for a worker to expect for their labor and time?

Job security and enough money to live on, apparently. That's obviously commie nonsense.


Animus: no argument with any of that, but the point is, India provides cheap educated workers. You can hire somebody with a Master's degree to work in a call centre there for half of what you'd pay for somebody who didn't finish high school in the 'States. There's also the anglophone thing, which is something else that the UK and the 'States are pretty miserable on. How many anglos in the southwest speak any Spanish?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 7/30/2010 4:31:46 AM >

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 6:29:40 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?


Because I have seen first hand, how the Labour Unions have played a huge part in the closing of manufacturing plants that employed hundreds, and at times thousands, of people.




The union seeks to increase the pay for the worker so management goes offshore for cheap labor to increase the pay for management and somehow that is the union's fault...perhaps we should just abolish the 13th ammendment and all the jobs will come back.


No, the union seeks to increase the pay for themselves. If the workers get something out of it, that's alright, but it's not the main goal.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 6:41:12 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What exactly is greedy and unrealistic for a worker to expect for their labor and time?


Can we agree that it is greedy and unrealistic to expect compensation that bankrupts the company?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 6:43:32 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

India has a very high rate of educated English speaking workers....


that I cannot understand.

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 6:44:55 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?


Because I have seen first hand, how the Labour Unions have played a huge part in the closing of manufacturing plants that employed hundreds, and at times thousands, of people.




The union seeks to increase the pay for the worker so management goes offshore for cheap labor to increase the pay for management and somehow that is the union's fault...perhaps we should just abolish the 13th ammendment and all the jobs will come back.


No, the union seeks to increase the pay for themselves. If the workers get something out of it, that's alright, but it's not the main goal.


Just wish to repeat the statistic I gave earlier. Only 7.2% of private industry workers in the US are unionized. It makes little sense to lay the problem of job outsourcing to the Unions. The Unions are as much victims of outsourcing as the workers are whatever ill feeling people have for labor bosses.

I also wish to repeat what I posted earlier: innovation is the essential force of Capitalism. No one is to blame when new markets and new methods of production evolve. The more important issue is how do we respond to it. I do not favor government involvement simply because the issue is bigger and more enduring than any tax credit can alter. We are in a post-industrial economy. Individuals need to be aware and seek out skills they can sell in this new service oriented economy.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 6:54:31 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Surely you aren't saying that companies have relocated offshore because of increased production rates and innovation came about? In fact, it is the opposite.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 6:59:05 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?


Because I have seen first hand, how the Labour Unions have played a huge part in the closing of manufacturing plants that employed hundreds, and at times thousands, of people.




The union seeks to increase the pay for the worker so management goes offshore for cheap labor to increase the pay for management and somehow that is the union's fault...perhaps we should just abolish the 13th ammendment and all the jobs will come back.


No, the union seeks to increase the pay for themselves. If the workers get something out of it, that's alright, but it's not the main goal.


Just wish to repeat the statistic I gave earlier. Only 7.2% of private industry workers in the US are unionized. It makes little sense to lay the problem of job outsourcing to the Unions. The Unions are as much victims of outsourcing as the workers are whatever ill feeling people have for labor bosses.

I also wish to repeat what I posted earlier: innovation is the essential force of Capitalism. No one is to blame when new markets and new methods of production evolve. The more important issue is how do we respond to it. I do not favor government involvement simply because the issue is bigger and more enduring than any tax credit can alter. We are in a post-industrial economy. Individuals need to be aware and seek out skills they can sell in this new service oriented economy.



Your tactic of putting words in people's mouths is getting old. I said the unions seek to increase the pay for themselves. That means I think the union leaders are a bunch of self serving mother fuckers. No where did I mention laying the problem of outsourcing at their feet. Did that clear things up for you?


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs bac... - 7/30/2010 7:23:42 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

India has a very high rate of educated English speaking workers....


that I cannot understand.


It's a former British colony, old boy. Hence there's a bit of an emphasis on British style education and speaking the Queen's English. For some reason that sort of thing's more widespread in the commonwealth countries than other former colonial possessions.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 80
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