RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (Full Version)

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xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 2:42:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You have been completely insulting and nasty in this reply.



You did catch the part at the end of my last post to you where I stated I was teasin' ya just a bit, right? And not you personally so much, but rather what you posted. Now you can take it personal and use this opportunity to withdrawl from the discussion, but I suspect not many will view our current dialogue or our individual credibility as you do.

quote:



I won't respond to it because in your world, which if I am to understand you live on "gor", you don't deal with government policy anyways...


You do have a certain entertaining quality when you get flustered. And actually I've never been to Gor, you do realize it's just a fictional place. Right?

quote:



You also do not have to treat other people with respect, and dignity, and it is okay to lessen people and refer to them by shortening their nics in an obvious gambit to dominate them inappropriately.


I'm sure if, in the above, you are lecturing me, defining me, or informing me of your opinion of those dreadful Goreans. In any event you failed to characterize me accurately.

And sorry about the name thing, it is Julia; I was only trying to be friendly, heck some peope call you Jules, didn't assume that much liberty.

quote:



It is also okay to engage in personal attacks on gor, because you do not have anything of import to contribute to a civil discussion..


Do you mean to engage in ad hominem attacks such as you are demonstrating for us here?

quote:



You have completely denigrated yourself in the above reply, congrats!


Perhaps, but it seems possible that opinions will vary.




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 2:46:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hsimlexx

Bull, your knowledge of the economics of healthcare are a little off. Private Insurers eat up more than 20% of premium dollars in admin costs, analysts who do denial of payment costs, advertising costs, and profits. Medicare uses around 3% of the "premium" dollar. Total dollars spent in this country would drop dramatically and still cover all if we had 100% coverage utilizing the same model as Medicare. Is it perfect, hardly. But don't claim that single payer wouldn't change anything. That is total nonsense.


You could be right; I'll take this into consideration, evaluate and research your stats for my future opinions.

Thank you....




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 3:10:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So you think pointing out the type of dominant I like it an appropriate debating tactic?

*shrugs* we all have opinions....


Edited to add, calling them pedophiles...

Hmmmm, last I looked I am a 42 year old curvy and completely adult submissive female...

There is nothing prepubescent about me



Are you intentionally avoiding my play at humor or am I that hard to read?

Call me crazy but it looks to me like you're employing the victum strategy............nah[:)]




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 3:46:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

What would actually happen if we defaulted as a country?


I suspect the last shread of credibility we have as a nation would be gone. My integrity to stand at my word, live up to my obligations and accept responsibility for my actions has me viewed with high regard. I and I would expect most people here and around the world expect the same from the US Government.

quote:



Who would stand to lose the most?


Those that haven't prepared for social chaos and those that don't have the ability to survive in the aftermath of said chaos.

quote:



I am not arguing against responsibility. And we both know the revenue curve can be changed with tax policy. Or are you one of those who think we should kneel down for the rich so we can get the scraps?


I don't kneel to anyone, I work to solve my own issues, it's why I argue for a free society. We all have a skill set that we can use to provide for ourselves. There will always be the haves and the have nots, touting it isn't fair or that you desreve more than you have is no longer a cry that get's my attention. My father grew up poor. He worked hard, earned respect, was filled with pride and self worth at the sweat of his brow, he taught me the same, I'm not "rich", but I can buy the things I want. Many black men today have great power and wealth by the cultivation of their own skills. So if this country goes down the tubes I suspect freedom and personal sovereignty will soon follow.

quote:



Capital doesn't grow on trees and it isn't the sole respite of the banking system either. Do you suppose the banks are unhappy with the current state of play? Or are they quite content with the status quo? And if they are so happy, why?


Again, the CBO has commented on this mess.

quote:



I just believe that there are more options than simply telling the whole country that we've got to massively readjust ourselves so that "debt" needs to be lower.



We need to spend like adults and not spoiled children without a shred of sense. Now we don't have to leave people starving in the streets to get our house in order, but to simply turn our backs on our personal or collective debt and responsibilities is unsatisfactory. At least to me.

Now I've been answering your questions.

Why do you think Obama's trying to break our nation?


He's not trying to break the nation. He's trying to heal the wounds inflicted on us by Conservatives and Republicans that have taken the stand that they want to wring as much capital out of the US as they can, deposit it offshore, and wait till they are ready to bail. Leaving us holding the bag. They run their Corporations for the betterment of themselves and their "stockholders". Why do you think that all of the money has been poured into China and southeast asian economies? Is it because they are better at what they do? Come on now. open your eyes and look around. The "finanacial crisis" of 2008 was manufactured and timed just right to try and give maximum effect. They had all the right people in place to make the effective transfer of 3 trillion in capital from us to them.

Obama is trying to fix this situation. He is trying to appeal to our better selves and stop us from being such selfish little thugs in the sandbox. Why can't the top 1% be expected to shoulder an increasing amount of the taxes? We have afforded them the safest country on earth for them to amass fortunes without worrying about murder and mayhem on them. We have backed it up with the greatest army on earth so that no nation can step in their way or keep them from their appointed goals(Iraq/Afhghanistan). So, excuse me if I tell them bastards they have to pay their fair share for the ability to live in my country and enjoy the freedoms they are allowed...


Your country? How about our country?

You've bought into this class warfare thing hook, line and sinker haven't you. Are you one of those fellas that thinks the Vanderbilts the Carnegies and Rockefeller types literally owe their fortunes to the less fortunate?

You do realize that Obama is playin' you, right? Look at his buddies, they're all rich and power mad just like the bad guys you have been taught to hate.

Your predjudices are showing rather clearly at this point, you realy dislike those damn Republicans, Conservatives and rich folk.




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 3:54:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Bull,

Do you usually read the CBO newsletter? How depressing and nearly overwhelming!!


Not always, but the media and those pesky politicians seem rather adept at misrepresenting facts...............from time to time.




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 4:17:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I do believe her point was Bull was caught with his pants down so to speak in the argument and went for the insult card instead of admitting he is incorrect about healthcare. If you can't argue the point do the 180 and go the other way. Dickless Cheney would be proud.


You get your shades at the same store as Julia don't ya.

First I went out of my way to let her know I was teasin' her, I was attempting to introduce a bit of levity before she had her typical explosion; perhaps a misacalculation on my behalf...................sorry..

She on the other hand is obviously directing intentional insults, so it seems to me that while my pants are well placed, hers may not be. And considering this is the line and direction you are choosing to employ your allegiance with regard to this issue, that should be quite telling in itself.

Concurrently, I don't believe I'm incorrect about anything I expressed as fact or my opinion. So why would I change my position? Surely you don't think that your worn out rhetorical talking points did anything to alter my opinion, did you?

Now I asked a couple questions, and of those issues I am unsure, but up to this point you or Julia has done nothing to advance my understanding beyond what it was.

Understand one thing, I'm not pointing a finger a Obama, he is simply the easiest one for most to focus on. I'm more suspicious of the likes of Jeffery Immelt, Barry Soetoro and all these other men that slipped into our Government unvetted.

But thanks for your contribution.




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 4:22:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


Well that's a relief, those x's were such a chore.[;)][;)][;)] Would you be prepared if revolution was needed?



I swore to defend that Constitution a long time ago..... Nothings changed.

Though I do hope this brand of discussion never advances past the rhetorical stage.




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 4:26:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne
 

The ONLY good thing about this plan I have heard, is insurance companies can no longer use pre-existing conditions to exclude anyone.  We will see.




I too think that is a good thing, but I'm left wondering about the unseen costs and regulations on the individual this will inspire.




domiguy -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 5:38:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

From the office used to validate the need for health care. I wonder if our new Land Lords will provide the same entitlements that broke us?

This debt problem is about more than right or left policies, it's about survival. Is someone trying to break this country?

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/



How did you make the jump from the CBO article that you "quoted," to the idea that someone is trying to "break" the country?

Who are the landlords and who is trying to break the country?

No where in the article were "landlords" mentioned or were there any allusions made that the country is in any type of "imminent" danger.

Are we reading the same article?

Want to discuss whether Obama is a U.S. citizen?




thornhappy -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 5:50:03 PM)

The OP's post reminds me of the folks that said it's good to have huge debt because it "starves the beast" of fuel for social programs.  I first heard that around the time of Bush 41, if not in the Reagan administration.

Even Bush 43 was reluctant to make the third round of tax cuts, but was reminded by Rove to keep "on message".  He could've changed his policies, especially on war funding (it's a travesty to go to war on a fricken' credit card) during his second administration, since he "had a mandate".  But he didn't, and luck ran out on the financial markets, who were essentially running open-loop.

Frankly I think we'll have to raise taxes unless there was a miracle and our troops were called home tomorrow.  Even if they were home tomorrow there's a big backlog in gear to be repaired, and we'll have huge costs to pay for their health care.




xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 6:09:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

How did you make the jump from the CBO article that you "quoted," to the idea that someone is trying to "break" the country?


Well it is just a curiousity I have but, it wasn't hard, the men that adjust the purse strings in Washington surely can see their actions will bankrupt this country, and now the CBO is warning them of just that very thing. And you can play dumb if you want, but they knew this going in, they spend money like they found it in the road.

quote:



Who are the landlords and who is trying to break the country?


Apparently I'm a bit to cryptic for you. If we keep borrowing money until we default they take posession. In theroy anyway, you know the creditors. Or are you too of the notion we don't have to pay it back?

quote:



No where in the article were "landlords" mentioned or were there any allusions made that the country is in any type of "imminent" danger.


No danger if we right the spending glut. Do you see any sign that they intend to stop spending like lunitics?

quote:



Are we reading the same article?


Don't be obtuse, it doesn't become you and I for one am not buying it.

quote:



Want to discuss whether Obama is a U.S. citizen?


And then there's the obvious sign you had no intention beyond misdirection and spin.

Good for you, my self-righteous friend.




domiguy -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 6:28:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

How did you make the jump from the CBO article that you "quoted," to the idea that someone is trying to "break" the country?


Well it is just a curiousity I have but, it wasn't hard, the men that adjust the purse strings in Washington surely can see their actions will bankrupt this country, and now the CBO is warning them of just that very thing. And you can play dumb if you want, but they knew this going in, they spend money like they found it in the road.

quote:



Who are the landlords and who is trying to break the country?


Apparently I'm a bit to cryptic for you. If we keep borrowing money until we default they take posession. In theroy anyway, you know the creditors. Or are you too of the notion we don't have to pay it back?

quote:



No where in the article were "landlords" mentioned or were there any allusions made that the country is in any type of "imminent" danger.


No danger if we right the spending glut. Do you see any sign that they intend to stop spending like lunitics?

quote:



Are we reading the same article?


Don't be obtuse, it doesn't become you and I for one am not buying it.

quote:



Want to discuss whether Obama is a U.S. citizen?


And then there's the obvious sign you had no intention beyond misdirection and spin.

Good for you, my self-righteous friend.



Two can play the game....

Anywhooo, we have just dealt with one of the most serious financial calamaties since the depression. (the mortgage wrapped security mess).

We are still fightin two rather unnecessary wars. Hopefully these costs will recede with the war.

Though not mentioning directly, the article does talk about the aging population of America and how their impending health care costs are going to prove to be a huge financial detriment to this country.

I can only assume they are questioning how medicare will be able to adequately fund the cost of this care?

Medicare is in deep shit. It should be run with more efficiency with more attempts made to alleviate the fraud that plagues the system.

While people may have not liked the way the mortgage crisis was handled it was handled and to date we have avoided a full blown depression.

Do we need to get ahold of our spending? Absolutely. Do we need to get our health care costs under control? Without a doubt.

I recently helped out a friend's mom navigate signing up for her medicare part "B" benefits.

She recently retired from her job at a bank where her salary was just under 40k but the cost of her health benefits shared by her as well as her employer was almost $9,200.00 annually.

You want to talk about being competitive within a global economy or how much of our work year goes to pay the costs that insure we have adequate health care?

In many cases our landlords are the insurance companies and the health industry that charges absolutely ludicrous sums for the care they administer and allow to be delivered.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 6:34:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

The Federal Law aka ObamaCare was taken after the current Massachusetts Healthcare Law aka RomneyCare
Massachusetts insurance premiums are the highest in the country and increasing at the fastest rate. in the country
Have a look at our situation if you want a peek into your future.

              mbmbn


I hear you with this all the time. Rates compared to what? Individual premiums? Company premiums? All insurance companies?


You do ? Funny, I don't remember ever posting about this.

Tell ya what. You do me first, then I'll do you.[;)]
You show me all my posts about it, then I'll link you to the Boston Globe article that backs me up.
OR.....
you can Google it yourself.

            mbmbn






xBullx -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 6:48:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

How did you make the jump from the CBO article that you "quoted," to the idea that someone is trying to "break" the country?


Well it is just a curiousity I have but, it wasn't hard, the men that adjust the purse strings in Washington surely can see their actions will bankrupt this country, and now the CBO is warning them of just that very thing. And you can play dumb if you want, but they knew this going in, they spend money like they found it in the road.

quote:



Who are the landlords and who is trying to break the country?


Apparently I'm a bit to cryptic for you. If we keep borrowing money until we default they take posession. In theroy anyway, you know the creditors. Or are you too of the notion we don't have to pay it back?

quote:



No where in the article were "landlords" mentioned or were there any allusions made that the country is in any type of "imminent" danger.


No danger if we right the spending glut. Do you see any sign that they intend to stop spending like lunitics?

quote:



Are we reading the same article?


Don't be obtuse, it doesn't become you and I for one am not buying it.

quote:



Want to discuss whether Obama is a U.S. citizen?


And then there's the obvious sign you had no intention beyond misdirection and spin.

Good for you, my self-righteous friend.



Two can play the game....

Anywhooo, we have just dealt with one of the most serious financial calamaties since the depression. (the mortgage wrapped security mess).

We are still fightin two rather unnecessary wars. Hopefully these costs will recede with the war.

Though not mentioning directly, the article does talk about the aging population of America and how their impending health care costs are going to prove to be a huge financial detriment to this country.

I can only assume they are questioning how medicare will be able to adequately fund the cost of this care?

Medicare is in deep shit. It should be run with more efficiency with more attempts made to alleviate the fraud that plagues the system.

While people may have not liked the way the mortgage crisis was handled it was handled and to date we have avoided a full blown depression.

Do we need to get ahold of our spending? Absolutely. Do we need to get our health care costs under control? Without a doubt.

I recently helped out a friend's mom navigate signing up for her medicare part "B" benefits.

She recently retired from her job at a bank where her salary was just under 40k but the cost of her health benefits shared by her as well as her employer was almost $9,200.00 annually.

You want to talk about being competitive within a global economy or how much of our work year goes to pay the costs that insure we have adequate health care?

In many cases our landlords are the insurance companies and the health industry that charges absolutely ludicrous sums for the care they administer and allow to be delivered.



I don't think I disputed a single thing you mentioned. However this calamity as you called it started long ago... And I'm not laying it all on one party or the other. Obama's plans may have helped things, or maybe not, the jury in my head is still out.

The Wars in my opinion are a cause from vast decades of our own short-sightedness, both parties and all of America is to blame, in my opinion.

The Health Care issue must be addressed, I don't believe it has been, in fact short of the Insurance companies not being able to refuse care for pre-existing conditions I think Obamacare is an expensive flop. We need a real answer to this problem.

There has got to be a better way to serve this nations health care requirements, I regret to inform you that I have limited ideas, but I'm checking things out and trying to gain wisdom. A poster in this thread point out cost percentages for company staffs, that helps.

Apart from that I think we agree on much of the stuff mentioned.

Anway, I like this type of post. Thanks.





DomYngBlk -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 7:03:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

What would actually happen if we defaulted as a country?


I suspect the last shread of credibility we have as a nation would be gone. My integrity to stand at my word, live up to my obligations and accept responsibility for my actions has me viewed with high regard. I and I would expect most people here and around the world expect the same from the US Government.

quote:



Who would stand to lose the most?


Those that haven't prepared for social chaos and those that don't have the ability to survive in the aftermath of said chaos.

quote:



I am not arguing against responsibility. And we both know the revenue curve can be changed with tax policy. Or are you one of those who think we should kneel down for the rich so we can get the scraps?


I don't kneel to anyone, I work to solve my own issues, it's why I argue for a free society. We all have a skill set that we can use to provide for ourselves. There will always be the haves and the have nots, touting it isn't fair or that you desreve more than you have is no longer a cry that get's my attention. My father grew up poor. He worked hard, earned respect, was filled with pride and self worth at the sweat of his brow, he taught me the same, I'm not "rich", but I can buy the things I want. Many black men today have great power and wealth by the cultivation of their own skills. So if this country goes down the tubes I suspect freedom and personal sovereignty will soon follow.

quote:



Capital doesn't grow on trees and it isn't the sole respite of the banking system either. Do you suppose the banks are unhappy with the current state of play? Or are they quite content with the status quo? And if they are so happy, why?


Again, the CBO has commented on this mess.

quote:



I just believe that there are more options than simply telling the whole country that we've got to massively readjust ourselves so that "debt" needs to be lower.



We need to spend like adults and not spoiled children without a shred of sense. Now we don't have to leave people starving in the streets to get our house in order, but to simply turn our backs on our personal or collective debt and responsibilities is unsatisfactory. At least to me.

Now I've been answering your questions.

Why do you think Obama's trying to break our nation?


He's not trying to break the nation. He's trying to heal the wounds inflicted on us by Conservatives and Republicans that have taken the stand that they want to wring as much capital out of the US as they can, deposit it offshore, and wait till they are ready to bail. Leaving us holding the bag. They run their Corporations for the betterment of themselves and their "stockholders". Why do you think that all of the money has been poured into China and southeast asian economies? Is it because they are better at what they do? Come on now. open your eyes and look around. The "finanacial crisis" of 2008 was manufactured and timed just right to try and give maximum effect. They had all the right people in place to make the effective transfer of 3 trillion in capital from us to them.

Obama is trying to fix this situation. He is trying to appeal to our better selves and stop us from being such selfish little thugs in the sandbox. Why can't the top 1% be expected to shoulder an increasing amount of the taxes? We have afforded them the safest country on earth for them to amass fortunes without worrying about murder and mayhem on them. We have backed it up with the greatest army on earth so that no nation can step in their way or keep them from their appointed goals(Iraq/Afhghanistan). So, excuse me if I tell them bastards they have to pay their fair share for the ability to live in my country and enjoy the freedoms they are allowed...


Your country? How about our country?

You've bought into this class warfare thing hook, line and sinker haven't you. Are you one of those fellas that thinks the Vanderbilts the Carnegies and Rockefeller types literally owe their fortunes to the less fortunate?

You do realize that Obama is playin' you, right? Look at his buddies, they're all rich and power mad just like the bad guys you have been taught to hate.

Your predjudices are showing rather clearly at this point, you realy dislike those damn Republicans, Conservatives and rich folk.


Yeah, I am not crazy about people cloaking themselves in my flag then bending me over and fucking me for the pleasure. Do the owe the people of the US for their ability to amass fortunes? Quite right they do. And if you are silly enough to buy into the meme that says they got it from their own hard work then I have a bridge I need sell you. Go find a good autobiography on good ole John D. Yes, he and his decendents OWE the rest of us.....

Answer me this. If it is so bad here for the "rich" why are they staying? Why aren't they off running to find somewhere else just yet........they will in good time but that day isn't here.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 7:06:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

The Federal Law aka ObamaCare was taken after the current Massachusetts Healthcare Law aka RomneyCare
Massachusetts insurance premiums are the highest in the country and increasing at the fastest rate. in the country
Have a look at our situation if you want a peek into your future.

             mbmbn


I hear you with this all the time. Rates compared to what? Individual premiums? Company premiums? All insurance companies?


You do ? Funny, I don't remember ever posting about this.

Tell ya what. You do me first, then I'll do you.[;)]
You show me all my posts about it, then I'll link you to the Boston Globe article that backs me up.
OR.....
you can Google it yourself.

           mbmbn





Is what I thought. You don't have an answer. Tell you what, when you grow up and can discuss like an adult come on back.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 7:16:44 PM)

I was funnin with ya,DYB. Didn't you notice I " told " you were the facts were.

But, never let it be said I am not a good sport. I'll do the work for you.

http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/08/22/bay_state_health_insurance_premiums_highest_in_country/


Cheers !
And don't bother looking for " all the times " I have said this. They don't exist




DomYngBlk -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 7:21:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I was funnin with ya,DYB. Didn't you notice I " told " you were the facts were.

But, never let it be said I am not a good sport. I'll do the work for you.

http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/08/22/bay_state_health_insurance_premiums_highest_in_country/


Cheers !
And don't bother looking for " all the times " I have said this. They don't exist


Don't let your own article get in the way but the third paragraph is pretty telling....try again .....

The report did not break out how much premiums have increased in Massachusetts since the 2006 changes went into effect, so it does not show whether the law affected the rate of price increases. Still, with the state’s law often cited as a model for a national health care overhaul, advocates on various sides of the issue said the report underscores the urgency of including cost controls in any large-scale federal or state overhaul.
 
As I said might be best if you left this sort of thing to the grownups




ElizabethAnne -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 7:24:23 PM)

quote:

Yes, he and his decendents OWE the rest of us.....


What do they owe the rest of us?  You surely aren't suggesting they don't have the "right" to be rich are you?




DomYngBlk -> RE: Shocker, debt unsustainable... (7/28/2010 7:26:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

quote:

Yes, he and his decendents OWE the rest of us.....


What do they owe the rest of us?  You surely aren't suggesting they don't have the "right" to be rich are you?



Sure right to be rich but they also have obligations to the Country and people ,,,,,that allowed them to create such wealth for themselves. Are you saying that JD Rockerfeller could have done the same living in Europe?




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