RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil?

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RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 11:58:41 AM

E3

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As I've noted, it has not worked with how it has been implimented on large scales. Small scale communities have worked.

So I ask you this.. can communism NEVER work simply because it has not, or could it be made to work?

No I dont think its something I'll ever see in my life time. A change to society THIS massive would take generational education. MAYBE my grandchildren would be lucky enough to see such a societal re-evaluation of ideals in their life time IF we begin changing the focus of our education from personal greed to societal responsibility now. BUT the chances of that happening are slim to nil. The Machine we have now is a greedy one, and not eager to see change it cannot benefit from.

(in reply to Yourscum)

Post #: 21

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 12:10:59 PM

Yourscum

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Joined: 6/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E3

As I've noted, it has not worked with how it has been implimented on large scales. Small scale communities have worked.

So I ask you this.. can communism NEVER work simply because it has not, or could it be made to work?

That's a good point, I suppose forms of communism have worked for smaller communities. But for larger ones? I suspect human nature would prevent it, but who knows, maybe with the large scale social changes in cultures you talked about it could be made to work one day.

< Message edited by Yourscum -- 7/30/2010 12:11:28 PM >

(in reply to E3)

Post #: 22

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 12:55:36 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

What is the cause of that obesity and why do you think it is limited to the poorest people?

I want to answer your questions, thom, and I will, But let me ask you a couple first. Where are you from?

I hale from the third rock from the sun...how bout you?

I ask because it's clear from some of the language problems that American is not your first language.

I was not aware that american was a language

And, why do you do this "putting words in peoples mouths" thing so often? Is it intentional, or part of the language perceived difficulty?

Please show me where I have put anything in your mouth...or is this just wishful thinking on your part?
Your answers:

1. Eating more calories than one burns is the cause of all obesity.

I would agree to most but the doctors will tell you that it is not the cause of all obesity

Duh.
2. I don't think that, in fact it isn't, and i never came anywhere near to saying it was.

Here is what you said

quote:

Which is why the biggest health problem faced by our poorest people is obesity.

The facts are that all americans (rich and not rich) are faced with this problem. You are the one who singled out the poor.
As an aside smoking and not obesity is the largest health problem (but not by much...435,000 vs. 400,000 deaths per year) in america.

It was an intended differentiation from communist/socialist countries, where the poorest often face starvation,

Have you any documentation for this opinion?

not obesity. We are indeed materially blessed. Them, not so much.

Them whom...

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 23

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 2:00:01 PM

DCWoody

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Quick reply to thread in general: I suspect Communism/socialism will be the ultimate end development of humanity, as technology will (and is and has been for decades) make supply grow massively disproportionately to supply for most wants...eventually leading to a situation where nobody needs to do any job they don't want to.....BUT...attempts to implement it before then aren't going to work, as it can never be meritocratic.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 24

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 2:58:29 PM

dbloomer

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Joined: 7/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Quick reply to thread in general: I suspect Communism/socialism will be the ultimate end development of humanity, as technology will (and is and has been for decades) make supply grow massively disproportionately to supply for most wants...eventually leading to a situation where nobody needs to do any job they don't want to.....BUT...attempts to implement it before then aren't going to work, as it can never be meritocratic.

This is known as a resource based economy. Check it out on wikipedia. The only reason we don't live in something resembling this reality now is that there are powerful people who want things to remain the same and the public is not organized.

(in reply to DCWoody)

Post #: 25

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:13:58 PM

willbeurdaddy

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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E3

Speaking as poor.. and yet thankfully not obese (5'8" and 200 pounds... so larger guy, but not obese)... I know that money is the greatest limitation to my physical exercise to fight obesity.

Yeah it takes a lot of money to go outside and walk, or walk up and down your stairs.

Believe it or not E3, people on this board know the difference between Communism and Socialism, and dont need a dissertation from you.

(in reply to E3)

Post #: 26

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:17:38 PM

rulemylife

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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourscum

quote:

ORIGINAL: E3

As I've noted, it has not worked with how it has been implimented on large scales. Small scale communities have worked.

So I ask you this.. can communism NEVER work simply because it has not, or could it be made to work?

That's a good point, I suppose forms of communism have worked for smaller communities. But for larger ones? I suspect human nature would prevent it, but who knows, maybe with the large scale social changes in cultures you talked about it could be made to work one day.

Not to try to create a conspiracy theory, but could the reason it has not worked been because we were indoctrinated to believe it will not work?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/30/2010 3:18:17 PM >

(in reply to Yourscum)

Post #: 27

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:24:12 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E3

AH.. see here we get to an issue with communism/socialism.

The poorest in those countries starve.

Because historicly, NO country has been a proper communist/socialist country. We've only had bastardizations of those ideals implimented. Corrupted versions of them. Ones where equality was NOT present, as equality is the core and founding ideal behind socialism and communism.

Like capitalism, even socialism can be corrupted and made to fit individual greedy ideals. It doesnt mean it is a written fact this must always be though. With the proper checks and balances, either system could have the rampant individual greed stamped out.

Socialism can never work, that is why there has "never been a proper" socialist country. It is totally abhorrent to human nature. If you are lucky enough to live in Chewandswallow where food falls from the sky and houses miraculously build themselves then a "proper" socialist country might exist. Absent that, as soon as people actually have to work to survive, pure socialism CANNOT produce as much TOTAL economic well being as pure capitalism. The only issue then is how much you can compromise pure capitalism through regulation and redistribution before you sink all boats. Obama would love to take us beyond that point.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/30/2010 3:25:00 PM >

(in reply to E3)

Post #: 28

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:33:20 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E3

So. why do YOU hate communism and socialism? What are your reasons?

Well I don't hate communism and socialism. I think some socialist programs are good ideas. But the two, even the way you describe them, still freak me out.

I grew up in the US and moved to Australia in 2007. Australia is a lot more socialist than the US and also a lot less free. Not just government freedoms - they're trying to censor the internet here. "Hate speech" is a crime, not just threatening violence against a group but saying you don't like them. The government here seems hell bent on protecting people from themselves.

And that totally bothers me. To me, the flip side of socialism is what mothers always say - "As long as you live under my roof, you'll live under my rules." And when the government becomes parental, even if it's in the most ideal way of taking care of everyone, they're going to have that my house my rules mentality. I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years or so cigarettes became illegal in Australia. All Australians get Medicare, I can't see the government wasting taxpayer money on idiots who choose to smoke and cost the system more, you know?

My raging against the machine years are over and I'm learning to deal with this new sort of society, so different from the one I grew up in, but the reason I'll never go all out and support socialism is because I can see the effects of averaging out society, yes having fewer poor people is a good thing, but having pioneers and brilliantly mad people who aren't afraid of "tall poppy syndrome" is a good thing too. Really.

(in reply to E3)

Post #: 29

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:37:55 PM

rulemylife

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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Socialism can never work, that is why there has "never been a proper" socialist country. It is totally abhorrent to human nature. If you are lucky enough to live in Chewandswallow where food falls from the sky and houses miraculously build themselves then a "proper" socialist country might exist. Absent that, as soon as people actually have to work to survive, pure socialism CANNOT produce as much TOTAL economic well being as pure capitalism. The only issue then is how much you can compromise pure capitalism through regulation and redistribution before you sink all boats. Obama would love to take us beyond that point.

Those were some interesting proclamations Willbeur.

Care to fill in the blanks?

Or do we have to just take your word for it as usual?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 30

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:50:14 PM

VideoAdminTheta

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Joined: 10/24/2009
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I've cleaned the thread up and will hope that you all keep in mind that you may attack an idea or topic, but not a person. Removed posts also consist of those that quote a removed post. Please continue while keeping in mind, these factors.

Thank you

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 31

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 3:56:51 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminTheta

I've cleaned the thread up and will hope that you all keep in mind that you may attack an idea or topic, but not a person. Removed posts also consist of those that quote a removed post. Please continue while keeping in mind, these factors.

Thank you

Communofascist. What if we don't all WANT to get along?

Srs on topic post for real.

ETA - yeah I know if CM goes all crazy moderation again I can go somewhere else to post, but you can't do that so easily with your nationality. So to reiterate what I said in my last post, this is one of the biggest issues I have with an ideal socialist society - where everyone has what they need, everyone works together as a society, and people who don't want to do that get deleted.

Lawl.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 7/30/2010 4:05:11 PM >

(in reply to VideoAdminTheta)

Post #: 32

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 4:02:54 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Believe it or not E3, people on this board know the difference between Communism and Socialism, and dont need a dissertation from you.

You, clearly, are not one of them.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 33

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 4:04:37 PM

VideoAdminTheta

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Joined: 10/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Communofascist. What if we don't all WANT to get along?

Srs on topic post for real.

I would recommend chocolate, ice cream or good sex.

For real! (wink)

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 34

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 4:05:50 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminTheta

I would recommend chocolate, ice cream or good sex.

For real! (wink)

Heheheee <3

(in reply to VideoAdminTheta)

Post #: 35

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 4:59:42 PM

E3

Posts: 47
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline

WOW how the forums move on while I watch a movie with my kid.. lol

You know.. I actualy hate politics. Discussing politics, from our lot in life, is like complaining about the sun. NOT A HELL OF A LOT WE CAN DO.

In the end.. all the debate we have here as individuals, means nothing. The ideas are born here. They live here. They die here. We change no ones minds. We debate among already like minded people. So why do we debate to achieve nothing? Well.. unless you share these ideas elsewhere. Teach them to those closest to you. I learned to think of my community first, from my mother. Who herself learned from her very old fashioned family. She was 1 of 12 kids. In such a life, you DO think of the community first. Our families get smaller. So we think of fewer people, and its narrowing down in the world today, where people think of only those who live with them, and even then thats not a guarantee.

We dont grow our own food, mine our own metals, smelt them and forge our own tools. There is so much in our world that DEMANDS we live as part of a society. Yet we take from it. We ignore societies needs. And instead, figure our piddly taxes are "Caesars due". Think about it.. how can we live a part of a society.. seperate from it?

In regards to the Australian... Canada is very socialist in some regards. Could do better, but we definately live under the thumb of the "greedy capitalist machine". Though in all truth, the examples you've portrayed of your lacking freedom DO shock me. Here, we have those freedoms. And this is the first I'd heard of Australia not being so free as here. *crosses it off his list of places to escape to when Canada joins the USA*

And in regards to sex and chocolate ice cream.... You know. I can get chocolate ice cream regularly. Its the sex I coudl go for. lol

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 36

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 5:34:55 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Even if you don't grow it yourself, visits to the local farmers and a few days work during summer months can provide enough food to last most of the winter.

You do not seem to know much about farming.
I have been a subsistance farmer for the past 25 years and I still spend about $600 dollars a year in the grocery store. I do not grow chocolate, coffee or wheat. Consequently I need to purchase bread,coffee and chocolate(life without chocolate is barely existence) as well as salt and other spices.
It would be more than a bit presumptious to claim that 10,000 square feet of garden qualifies as a farm but it takes somewhat more than a few days a year to make it produce what I need.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 37

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 5:37:09 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourscum

quote:

ORIGINAL: E3

So. why do YOU hate communism and socialism? What are your reasons?

I don't hate communism. In some ways I think it was a very good idea. But it simply doesn't work.

Communism/socialism seems to be working in viet nam and cuba.

(in reply to Yourscum)

Post #: 38

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 5:37:46 PM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

FR

Freedom has been tasted and it is addictive. We are much to complex as a species to be molded into tiny shapes so as to fit into the boxes of pure communism and socialism. The Sun revolves around the Earth. The Earth is flat. People have less value because of the amount of melanin in their epidermis or because they love in an unconvential manner.

No. It's just not so.

Society has been too wrong for too long. Society has produced nothing, invented nothing, bred nothing. We have no books, art or music because of society. Society has cured no ills, nor cooked a meal, nor fed the masses. People do those things. Individuals and sometimes groups of individuals. Not society.

Society is undeserving of such a vast and complex leadership role. We need high standards, with high bars and rewards for excellence commensurate with ability and results.. not with need. Society just isn't good enough.

The guy with 10 children will consume far greater resources than the single guy with no children. They are not equal in need, but may be equal in ability.. and should be rewarded for the ability and what they do with it, not for the need. The ramifications are too significant, the cost to benefit ratio too high because it does come at the price of freedom and that's a price that should not be paid to benefit the nameless, faceless society that would set it aside for another blanket or cord of wood. I don't believe there are many things that are worth killing or dieing for, but I do believe that freedom is one of those things and I have instilled that into my children and pray that philosophy will remain in the bloodline of my family for untold generations.

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 7/30/2010 5:39:31 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to E3)

Post #: 39

RE: Communism and Socialism.. the devil? - 7/30/2010 5:39:19 PM

wittynamehere

Posts: 759
Joined: 2/5/2010
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Agreed with the above. I put in some decent work out back of my place, and still only get a few boxes of potatoes, tomatoes, and various herbs etc per year. It's not as easy as just going to a place with dirt, scattering some seeds, picking out weeds once about halfway through the season, and coming back several months later to pick up your boxes of groceries.

And even those who do it for years, and do it well, still have to trade for and buy other stuff. Try eating nothing but plain beans, or maybe a salad made of nothing but lettuce and tomatoes, and you'll realize just how much variety you eat (and require for nutrition) every day.

_____________________________

I almost never return to a thread, so if you saw my post and want me to hear your reply, please message it to me.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 40

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