RE: Politics and religion. (Full Version)

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dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/30/2010 8:15:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

A system that isn't vulnerable to greed and where choices aren't made by people with only private interests in mind,
Please elaborate


This is something I learned researching The Venus Project. Greed and corruption are present in our day and age because it is advantageous to an individual to BE greedy and corrupt.

If I lie about the value of a product to a customer and it results in him paying more than he would have if I didn't lie, I am rewarded for lying. I gain because of it. This is a problem with our money system and our economy that politics simply can not address, especially since many of our political figures are incompotent.

Another hypothetical example is; A big company pours a massive quantity of industrial waste in to a lake somewhere to save 100 million dollars. The fine for getting caught doing this is 10 million dollars. The company is REWARDED for indulging in corrupt behavior because it is more affordable to do so. Even if they're caught they've saved 90 million dollars.







popeye1250 -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/30/2010 9:07:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

It's never Hawaii, or Fiji.

How's Long Island?

fuckin ayeeeeeee



Long Island is just New Jersey with a G.E.D.




Arpig -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/30/2010 9:37:52 PM)

quote:

Greed and corruption are present in our day and age because it is advantageous to an individual to BE greedy and corrupt.
It always has been and always will be advantageous to be greedy, and corrupt, until the penalties for such behaviour exceeds the rewards.

How do you propose to create and enforce said penalties without some sort of political system...politics is the art/science of people living together, you cannot have penalties in place unless the people involved agree to said penalties and a method of enforcement, which involves...you guessed it...politics.

So what would you replace the current system with?




dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/30/2010 10:05:49 PM)

quote:


]It always has been and always will be advantageous to be greedy, and corrupt, until the penalties for such behaviour exceeds the rewards.

you cannot have penalties in place unless the people involved agree to said penalties and a method of enforcement, which involves...you guessed it...politics.

So what would you replace the current system with?



You've just illustrated my point.

What makes you think politics are not subject to corruption? There will NEVER be this "perfect political leader" that brings harmony to our nation because as long as corruption is rewarded, politicians will forever be succeptable to corruption. The legal system will be succeptable to corruption. The judges and lawyers who enforce the new more harsh laws you propose will be succeptable to corruption. And on and on and on...

A better way than increasing punishment for corruption is to eliminate the rewards for corruption.

I'd replace the current system with a "resource-based economy" where there is no money, no ownership, no property, and thus no motivation to steal, just an abundance of resources that allow for everyone to have access to everything they need. This is a reality given our current stage of technological development. Check out The Venus Project if you're curious, they pioneered the idea.

Like the "open-source" world, there is no motivation to steal something you already have access to.




WyldHrt -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/30/2010 11:50:28 PM)

quote:

So what would you replace the current system with?

Sci-Fi/ Fantasy author David Eddings (RIP) had a great idea for this. It won't ever happen, but it is good.
In his 'Tamuli' series, Eddings created a people called 'Tegans', whose society was a true republic and had a unique approach to politics. IIRC, it went something like this:
- No one ever campaigned to be part of the government, everyone was nominated by their neighbors... here's why
- Once elected, an official's private assets (all of them) were seized, liquidated, and the money held in a community trust until their term of service was over. Elected officials got a stipend to cover their expenses.
- If the economy expanded (without raising taxes) during their term, an official would get the value of their assets back, plus a percentage of the increased revenue, when their service ended.
- If the economy suffered during their term for any reason, the funds held in trust would be penalized, and they would get whatever was left.

Needless to say, anyone nominated for a position in the Tegan government was kept on lockdown from nomination until the election. [:D]

Simplistic and completely unrealistic? Absolutely. An interesting concept for the purpose of this discussion? I think so, yes.










RedStapler -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 12:05:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer
A system that isn't vulnerable to greed and where choices aren't made by people with only private interests in mind, something that will NEVER happen given our current establishment.

It will never happen given human nature. 

But even if you believe human nature is good or it can become good and uncorrupted, politics happens in the workplace, in the shoolyard, in nonprofit organizations, within families, everywhere.  Anytime you get people together, there will be politics. Even hippie communes have politics.  Whenever people get together, inevitably there will be collective choices to be made, and those choices can come from politics or force.  I choose politics.

Even if group decisions are made by complete consensus, it takes politics to create that consensus.  Its inescapable.




dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 12:14:33 AM)

quote:


It will never happen given human nature. 

But even if you believe human nature is good or it can become good and uncorrupted, politics happens in the workplace, in the shoolyard, in nonprofit organizations, within families, everywhere.  Anytime you get people together, there will be politics. Even hippie communes have politics.  Whenever people get together, inevitably there will be collective choices to be made, and those choices can come from politics or force.  I choose politics.

Even if group decisions are made by complete consensus, it takes politics to create that consensus.  Its inescapable.


Politics in the common use of the word does not happen in the work place. You don't elect people or legislate while you stand around the coffee cooler. In fact, in the workplace it's more of a private dictatorship where you do what you're told or get fired.

Making smart choices within a structure, and politics, are not the same thing, necessarily.

Feel free to choose politics. Don't expect progress because of it. Technology and science will solve problems and give us progress far more rapidly than politics can. Technical problems require technical solutions.





dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 12:16:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedStapler

It will never happen given human nature. 



Can you elaborate on this comment?




RedStapler -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 2:11:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedStapler

It will never happen given human nature. 



Can you elaborate on this comment?


It was in response to your comment about the end of greed and private interests as a driving force in decision making.  What I meant was that greed is part of human nature, and therefore humans will always tend to make choices that reflect their private interests.  Even if you create an alternative incentive system, people will always do what is in their self-interest.  Maybe others would call it something else, but I would still call this greed even if the incentive is no longer monetary profit.  It could be social status or something else intangible.  But people will always look out for themselves first.




RedStapler -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 2:26:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

quote:


It will never happen given human nature. 

But even if you believe human nature is good or it can become good and uncorrupted, politics happens in the workplace, in the shoolyard, in nonprofit organizations, within families, everywhere.  Anytime you get people together, there will be politics. Even hippie communes have politics.  Whenever people get together, inevitably there will be collective choices to be made, and those choices can come from politics or force.  I choose politics.

Even if group decisions are made by complete consensus, it takes politics to create that consensus.  Its inescapable.


Politics in the common use of the word does not happen in the work place. You don't elect people or legislate while you stand around the coffee cooler. In fact, in the workplace it's more of a private dictatorship where you do what you're told or get fired.

Making smart choices within a structure, and politics, are not the same thing, necessarily.

Feel free to choose politics. Don't expect progress because of it. Technology and science will solve problems and give us progress far more rapidly than politics can. Technical problems require technical solutions.


Examples of office politics includes:
Co-workers taking credit for work that's not theirs.
Kissing the ass of a supervisor/boss
Buying crap for their kids' school/youth group fundraisers
Forming alliances with co-workers against other co-workers.
Backstabing
Unionizing (LOTS of politics here).

Also, I'm not saying that unions are necessarily good or bad.  They may do both.  For example, a union might win fair health benefits for all employees, wile also creating enforced mediocrity for all union members.)





StrangerThan -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 5:04:38 AM)

Yeah, but it takes a special person to want to put on all that make-up, pretend to be holier than everyone else, learn to lie so well that the act of opening his or her mouth is an exercise in figuring out which falsehood to pursue, and have the balls to call what they do public service.

Something truly special.




DarkSteven -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 7:15:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

I'd replace the current system with a "resource-based economy" where there is no money, no ownership, no property, and thus no motivation to steal, just an abundance of resources that allow for everyone to have access to everything they need. This is a reality given our current stage of technological development. Check out The Venus Project if you're curious, they pioneered the idea.

Like the "open-source" world, there is no motivation to steal something you already have access to.


Let me paraphrase what you just said:  "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."  It's been tried.  Always with frightful results.

And are you sure that there are enough resources to provide all with a computer, car, cell phone, and housing?  Not to mention food and clothing?

I have serious issues with the capitalist concept of "From each according to his abilities, and to each accordingly".  But you gotta admit it WORKS.  Look at the technological advances made in the USA compared to those made in the rest of the world.  This is due to our reward-based system and our access to capital within the system.




dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 10:35:29 AM)

quote:


Let me paraphrase what you just said:  "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."  It's been tried.  Always with frightful results.


What I'm saying and what you're hearing are two very different things. You've immediately assumed what I'm talking about is something akin to communism because it's convinient for the brain to categorize information quickly.

This resource-based-economy is nothing like communism or anything that's been "tried before". We are in a technological era unlike anything before, a unique condition, which allows for a resource-based economy, also a unique condition.

It's not "Everyone has their needs looked after by the government". It's "Everything belongs to everyone", as though the world were one big library, where you could steal books if you wanted to, but since you already have full access to the library, and so does everyone else, stealing a book will not profit you, nor will it hurt anyone, really. Why "steal" something that's already in your possession, and why steal an item from someone when it's not actually going to result in depriving them of it if there's another one waiting for them?

quote:


And are you sure that there are enough resources to provide all with a computer, car, cell phone, and housing?  Not to mention food and clothing?


Statistics have shown we could easily feed everyone on the planet given the resources we have. What science does is deal in absolute terms. Politics deals in a world of subjectivity. Am I sure there's enough resources to provide everyone with everything? I believe so, but there's only one way to find out: Research, NOT debate.

During the depression a milk company poured all of it's unsellable milk out in to a gutter or something like that because nobody could pay. Meanwhile, everyone starved and went thirsty even though there was an abundance of milk. Tell me how this "Works".

quote:


I have serious issues with the capitalist concept of "From each according to his abilities, and to each accordingly".


If you think 20% of the nation controlling 80% of the wealth and thus the resources, works, that's your perogative. I never said capitalism didn't have positive effects, just that it has MANY MANY negative effects, which render capitalism obsolete given that a more efficient model that will make EVERYONE "WEALTHIER" through efficiency, exists and can be safely tested.

quote:


  But you gotta admit it WORKS.  Look at the technological advances made in the USA compared to those made in the rest of the world.  This is due to our reward-based system and our access to capital within the system.



Whenever RESOURCES and manpower are funneled in to research, technology will flourish, just like whenever you put gasoline on a fire, the fire will burn more brightly. It's important to realize that it's the gasoline and not the money that bought the gasoline that deserves the credit for being the catalyst for technological advancement. Money in fact inhibits technological progress because inferior products are rushed on to the market in order to increase profit, amongst many MANY other reasons.

As for the concept that reward fuels people:

Yes, reward will always fuel people, especially in a world where monetary rewards mean the difference between living in a home and starving to death in the cold.

My question to you is "So what?". People are motivated by moving away from discomfort, or by moving towards pleasure. If we build an environment where greed doesn't move a person towards pleasure or a desirable outcome, but where cooperation DOES, I think you'll find that people's minds will shift from greed to cooperation for their own self-interest.




dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 10:43:12 AM)

quote:



It was in response to your comment about the end of greed and private interests as a driving force in decision making.  What I meant was that greed is part of human nature, and therefore humans will always tend to make choices that reflect their private interests.  Even if you create an alternative incentive system, people will always do what is in their self-interest.  Maybe others would call it something else, but I would still call this greed even if the incentive is no longer monetary profit.  It could be social status or something else intangible.  But people will always look out for themselves first.



1) Greed is an unfortunate necessity for survival when resources are scarce, not NECESSARILY an element of human nature.
2) Even if greed WERE human nature, which it isn't in my opinion, So What? We do many things contrary to human nature or natural law. We smoke cigarettes and give ourselves cancer, we sit in front of a TV for hours at a time, motionless, we put blades on our feet and stand on sheets of ice, pushing a peice of rubber around with wooden sticks (hockey).

The point is, we posess the capacity to change our behavior when it's beneficial to do so. In capitalism, it's beneficial to be greedy, so people are greedy. This is an UNDENIABLE fact. People, EVERYONE in this day and age, believe greed is part of human nature, despite the fact that none of them have done any research to prove this fact other than examine the world around them. Well of COURSE a world that rewards greed will result in a greedy world. The problem is with the establishment more-so than the people.




dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 11:02:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Yeah, but it takes a special person to want to put on all that make-up, pretend to be holier than everyone else, learn to lie so well that the act of opening his or her mouth is an exercise in figuring out which falsehood to pursue, and have the balls to call what they do public service.

Something truly special.



No it doesn't, sadly. Given a big enough incentive, MANY MANY people compromise their integrity, in order to secure their future, a BIG BIG flaw of the monetary system.




heartcream -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 11:12:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedStapler


It was in response to your comment about the end of greed and private interests as a driving force in decision making.  What I meant was that greed is part of human nature, and therefore humans will always tend to make choices that reflect their private interests.  Even if you create an alternative incentive system, people will always do what is in their self-interest.  Maybe others would call it something else, but I would still call this greed even if the incentive is no longer monetary profit.  It could be social status or something else intangible.  But people will always look out for themselves first.



Because we have been operating from a place of misperceptions, misunderstandings and hoards of damage does not mean that is our Human Nature. I dont believe this at all.

Looking out for yourself is a healthy and righteous approach to take to living one's life. This does in no way mean we need to exploit any one else in order to look out for ourselves and do the right thing for ourselves. Two totally different things.

When one has unmoved fear lying undercurrent this will motivate someone to do things they dont necessarily feel aligned with. This is action motivated by denied emotion and it happens all over the place all the time.

This does not mean it cannot change. The more the individual is willing ot take responsibility for our own inner world, the more the outer world will change.

It aint over til the fat lady sings and she hasnt even arrived on the stage yet so maybe do not make these absolute sorts of statements as though what was will always be. Watch mate, see what happens.




Louve00 -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 11:18:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149

Cheer up.  Be thankful it's not Staten Island.


And just what is wrong with Staten Island?? Hmmm???  I was born in St Vincents hospital and grew up in Mariner's Harbor until I was 13.  Since then, I've been a Floridian.  Where most New Yorker's hang out and argue about religion and politics. [;)]




brainiacsub -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 11:39:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

A system that isn't vulnerable to greed and where choices aren't made by people with only private interests in mind,
Please elaborate

Please don't. I thought this conversation sounded familiar. Here it is:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3184123

bloomer, I think you are kind of a nutter. It would serve you well to search the terms "resource based economy" and "Venus project" in these forums so that you will be better prepared to address the criticisms of your worldview. The posters who disagree with you have some very valid points that you should consider.




dbloomer -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 11:58:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

A system that isn't vulnerable to greed and where choices aren't made by people with only private interests in mind,
Please elaborate

Please don't. I thought this conversation sounded familiar. Here it is:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3184123

bloomer, I think you are kind of a nutter. It would serve you well to search the terms "resource based economy" and "Venus project" in these forums so that you will be better prepared to address the criticisms of your worldview. The posters who disagree with you have some very valid points that you should consider.


Calling me a name, ignoring all the intellectual topics in this thread, and attempting to marginalize me will achieve nothing except for giving you a brief moment of emotional satisfaction.

I've perused your thread and it's clear to me you're more interested in conflict than getting at the truth. I'll be skipping past your posts from here on in.




brainiacsub -> RE: Politics and religion. (7/31/2010 12:03:23 PM)

I think most intellectuals would disagree with you.

My advice still stands.




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