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Detroit. - 8/3/2010 7:03:34 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Ever since I was young, I have been fascinated by the idea of taking something of little value, and trasmuting it into something of worth.  Detroit went the exact opposite direction, and now must figure out how to transmute itself back.

As I see it, there are four issues:

1. The auto industry established prosperity within Detroit, and then left.  No industry has replaced it.
2. The local politicians/movers and shakers had decades to notice that this was occurring and did nothing about it.  Incredibly stupid, lazy, or both for the powers that be to not be concerned.
3. A decided welfare mentality.  After a lot of flight of professionals, a large group remains behind, on welfare.
4. A very nasty and sizable criminal element.

I'd love to see how the problems are addressed.  It's essentially nation building that's needed.

There's been one proposal to turn a lot of Detroit into farmland, which strikes me as absolutely ridiculous.  Partly because it involves long hours of hard work competing against people who've done it for generations, and it also ties up large tracts of land with few people, making it susceptible to arson, vandalism, etc.

I have envisioned gated communities run by REITs with security forces in place for people who have incomes not tied to the local place (retirees, writers, etc.), but why would anyone want to live in Detroit's climate if they could relocate to a warmer place?

The proposals I have heard tend to assume that the criminal element will just move somewhere else if Detroit's rebuilding is successful.  Mao Zedong was the only rebuilder I know of that was successful at removing the criminal element, and he achieved this by wholesale executions, not something that would be allowed here.

So, any nation building experts have any suggestions, thoughts, ideas?





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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 7:42:13 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		Evacuate, annihilate, start from scratch.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 9:15:06 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Steven what you failed to mention is that the auto industry purposefully strangled the life out of Detroit, forced other businesses out so that citizens would depend on factory jobs, and then they left without a second thought of the consequences. Politicians...fuck....the level of corrupt politicians Detroit produces is beyond that of even my imagination. The most recent example is that Mr. Kilpatrick, who finally found his ass in jail, as opposed to heavily fined and spending trips in Vegas, well after the fact.

I don't agree with all of his policies and decisions, but Mayor Bing is one of the best things to happen to Detroit in a long time. His efforts to eliminate the abandoned homes in the area will have a huge effect on the criminal element that keeps the outside population on the outside. I hope, beyond hope, that these changes and the relatively low cost of urban farming will be a turning point for the city.

boi


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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 9:22:54 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Agreed boi, Same applies to Cleveland and I wish we could get someone strong like Mayor Bing here. Biggest problem I see is that for most major great lakes cities that there is no buy-in from the Suburbs to keep the City healthy. People have voted with their feet and wallets and moved out. This is across racial lines.....so it isn't a racial issue at all.

We have a few signs of life here but what I'd like to see done is taking parcels that are abandoned which there are many many many and have them leveled. The land is then given to anyone that wants it and will put up a house on it. Grants, Loans, Etc would be given so that people would have incentive come back. On top of this activity we would need to beef up police and security. Make the roads and areas around these properties presentable. I'd do this with a Government works program to put people in the cities to work cleaning the area,..working to make it look GOOD. Bringing industry back to cities is pie in the sky at this point. We need to make it livable again.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 9:30:42 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

This is across racial lines.....so it isn't a racial issue at all.



Actually, it is a racial issue, in Detroit. That's why we call it "white flight".

I highly suggest anybody looking to comment on the state of Detroit, who hasn't lived there (even for some of us who have) to check out the documentary "Requiem for Detroit". It's an eye opener as to the how and why Detroit is what it is today.

From the city that contributed the most in terms of direct and indirect man power and manufacturing to the US success in World War II, to the abandoned city it is today..."Requiem for Detroit" covers the whole process and the incredibly significant shit still happening today.

boi


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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 12:30:09 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I think we can get industry back to the Mid-Western Cities.
Number one end "NAFTA." It's been nothing but a failure for 16 years.

Remember when Bill Clinton told us that if "NAFTA" were passed that , "it will produce millions of high-paying manufacturing jobs and stop illegal immigration from Mexico?"
Well, it's had 16 years to prove itself and just the *opposite* has happened on both accounts!
We should have been out of it years ago! Noone can "defend" it anymore.
It's Time!
Also, all those cos. that "outsourced" jobs to overseas shouldn't be allowed to sell their products here.
And we've all heard the govt. say ,..."it's for the consumers!" ("it's for the chil-dren!") Yet, GM, Chrysler and Ford continue to make car parts in Mexico paying workers there $5 per day.
But, does anyone or has anyone seen the prices of cars go "down" in the last 20 years?
"Lower prices" are nice but not if you're not making a good week's pay. They acheive "lower prices" by using cheap foreign labor in third world countries not by lowering their profit margin.
Whenever anyone starts using the words "for the consumer" whether it's someone in the govt. or someone in big business that should automatically raise the red flags.
Detroit doesn't need "urban farming", public works projects or any other "feel good" programs, they need heavy manufacturing back.
How are you supposed to buy a new Ford, Chevy or Dodge when you're on "public assistance?"
Anything we need in this country can and should be made here!

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 12:37:42 PM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Hey we are all to blame. We all go around bitching about a product going up in price and are always harping about something cheaper. Guess what, Walmart/Target, et al listened. They told suppliers to cheapen up. Suppliers couldnt  make those products here in those low price ranges so they outsourced the production to meet the price points. We got what we asked for cheap goods at cheap prices.....If we'd start buying local , start buying quality and not quantity then we have a shot at changing things.  Higher prices aren't necessarily a bad thing. Our problem is in deciding what is really important

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 12:41:30 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		DYB, "we" never asked for lower prices, "the govt." and "big business" *told* us that we "needed" lower prices.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 12:42:46 PM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		No, everyone asks for lower prices. All the time. Just ask people about the price of gas, bread, milk, cars, bananas, meat, chicken.....they will all say...we want a lower price!

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 12:58:17 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

No, everyone asks for lower prices. All the time. Just ask people about the price of gas, bread, milk, cars, bananas, meat, chicken.....they will all say...we want a lower price!


DYB, perhaps I didn't explain my point well enough; the govt and big business "sold" us on lower prices so that they could get those "free trade" deals through, NAFTA, CAFTA etc..
Yet, big business is making "much higher profits" from those free trade deals so we're not getting the "full benefit" of lower prices.
If it costs Nike or the other shoe makers $2 to make a pair of athletic shoes (sneakers) in Maylaisia and they're selling them in the U.S. for $150 you're not really getting "lower prices" are you?
And, Americans aren't making them at good wages. So what's really going on is that those companies are cannibalizing their own markets, closing factories here and viola, we get,...Detroit.
If you're making $40 or $50 an hour "low prices" are "nice" but not essential.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 8/3/2010 12:59:59 PM >

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 12:58:53 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Atlantic City and Asbury Park NJ have had the same problems for decades.
Both cities are located on prime ocean front real estate and both have slums located on these ocean front properties.
Both cities are surrounded on either side by extremely expensive towns. All one has to do is cross the city line and go from a slum to a multi million dollar home.
The two cities have two things in common...
Both cities have and have had extremely corrupt governments and both are heavily populated by blacks.
This is not meant to be a racist comment, but rather, a statement of fact. Look up the demographics of both cities before you blast me.
Every other Jersey shore town is extremely expensive to own in.

Asbury Park is starting to crawl out of poverty finally. The artistic and gay communities have discovered it within the last few years and housing prices are starting to steadily rise.

Atlantic City is just sad. The casinos employ a huge portion of the population, but the government is so fucked that there's no chance.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 1:23:24 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

No, everyone asks for lower prices. All the time. Just ask people about the price of gas, bread, milk, cars, bananas, meat, chicken.....they will all say...we want a lower price!


DYB, perhaps I didn't explain my point well enough; the govt and big business "sold" us on lower prices so that they could get those "free trade" deals through, NAFTA, CAFTA etc..
Yet, big business is making "much higher profits" from those free trade deals so we're not getting the "full benefit" of lower prices.
If it costs Nike or the other shoe makers $2 to make a pair of athletic shoes (sneakers) in Maylaisia and they're selling them in the U.S. for $150 you're not really getting "lower prices" are you?
And, Americans aren't making them at good wages. So what's really going on is that those companies are cannibalizing their own markets, closing factories here and viola, we get,...Detroit.
If you're making $40 or $50 an hour "low prices" are "nice" but not essential.


Actually WE sold ourselves on lower prices. WE seem to think WE need luxury items when WE do not need them or cannot really afford them. It's the same reason WE have a credit debt problem in this country. WE forgot how to save for that special widget, WE just go looking for the cheapest place to buy it, and charge it.

Companies realized that the cheaper they make the Nikes and other, perceived 'luxury', items, more people will buy them. NAFTA wasn't a spiffy idea by far, but our own materialistic greed is equally to blame. No one NEEDS the Nikes......but if they are the cool new thing. They want them, they want them for the best possible price, and they want them NOW.


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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 1:39:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		LT, I've never been like that, in my younger days if I needed something I'd save my money until I got enough.
Now, I buy "New Balance" sneakers at Sears for $20 or $30 and say CHARGE just so I can pay the credit card off.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 1:44:05 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LT, I've never been like that, in my younger days if I needed something I'd save my money until I got enough.
Now, I buy "New Balance" sneakers at Sears for $20 or $30 and say CHARGE just so I can pay the credit card off.


Popeye, you are not like most people.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 1:56:42 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Actually WE sold ourselves on lower prices. WE seem to think WE need luxury items when WE do not need them or cannot really afford them. It's the same reason WE have a credit debt problem in this country. WE forgot how to save for that special widget, WE just go looking for the cheapest place to buy it, and charge it.

Companies realized that the cheaper they make the Nikes and other, perceived 'luxury', items, more people will buy them. NAFTA wasn't a spiffy idea by far, but our own materialistic greed is equally to blame. No one NEEDS the Nikes......but if they are the cool new thing. They want them, they want them for the best possible price, and they want them NOW.



Well fiddlefuck.  I was not supposed to use cash to pay for the new TV we needed? 

I new I was doing SOMETHING wrong.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 2:02:54 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		How UnAmerican of you!!!!!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 2:35:50 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		This is getting a bit overwrought. Countries are free to have society act in the interest of all society. In the US society and govt. works for the individual benefit of the businessman or investors.

Germany and to a large extent...Ireland among others, have built industry around serving their society as a whole. Similar to France until recently when their govt, allowed a corp. I think for the first time...challenge a union on wages or they move to Mexico.

BTW, I am a motorhead from Detroit. I've seen it go from the #5 pop. city at around 5 million people to around 900,000 now...a ghost town. We can blame the big three for leaving and trust me there were some other jobs but almost everyone's dream was to work for GM.

We can also blame Coleman Young and 20+ years of corruption while only...protecting his entourage. My old school elementary and converted to jr. high is a wreck...less than a shadow of itself.

Contrast this with Pittsburg. It almost completely lost the steel industry yet since has been voted several times as the no. 1 city to live in.

Ford was to move one factory back from Mexico and rebuild it in the city too. But not sure it went through with this recession.

I am not that familair with Mayor Bing but I have relatives in the burbs that tell me the city almost every year is floating petitions to annex them. Nobody wants any part of being annexed into the city of Detroit.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 8/3/2010 2:54:21 PM >

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 2:44:33 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I was born in Detroit, and have lived in the ciy or suburbs my entire life. I taught in the Detroi Public Schools for a time.

My city, and indeed my entire STATE are in such a ruinous condition that I don't think there IS any kind of turning back possible. The best we can do is regroup, and think of something ELSE to do. What do states like North Dakota or Montana do?

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 2:50:23 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LT, I've never been like that, in my younger days if I needed something I'd save my money until I got enough.
Now, I buy "New Balance" sneakers at Sears for $20 or $30 and say CHARGE just so I can pay the credit card off.


Popeye, you are not like most people.




Some in here would agree with you but not in a "good" way.

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RE: Detroit. - 8/3/2010 3:59:15 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I was kinda leaving it open to interpretation...

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to popeye1250)
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