RE: Detroit. (Full Version)

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BoiJen -> RE: Detroit. (8/3/2010 4:02:21 PM)

Coleman Young, the crook who left his name all over Detroit. Motherfucker.



AnimusRex -> RE: Detroit. (8/3/2010 6:03:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

3. A decided welfare mentality.  After a lot of flight of professionals, a large group remains behind, on welfare.



Very good post, and while I am pondering the other issues, just wanted to touch on this one for starters-

No one ever notices or criticizes the "welfare mentality" of successful thriving communities- its only once the gravy train stops and the place becomes a ghost town that we begin moralizing on the helpless welrfare teat-suckers.

For instance- the vast majority of farms in America are large agri-business concerns, heavily subsidized by taxpayers; Without generous subsidies, most would be bankrupt in a year.
I don't see a lot of articles on why those folks in Texas or Nebraska are such helpless parasites.

Cities like San Diego, Norfolk, and others are heavily dependent on the military spending from bases; other cities are dependent on military procurement. If they were forced to stand on their own and produce goods for sale to the consumer market, they would revert to hardscrabble towns.
I don't see a lot of articles wringing our hands over how weak and pathological the people of Virginia or California are.

If the Federal gov't actually turned off the enormous spigot of money that gets dished out each year to the military- industrial and agribusiness complex, I am betting that we would see a lot more Detroits, all over America.




vincentML -> RE: Detroit. (8/3/2010 9:15:08 PM)

quote:

If the Federal gov't actually turned off the enormous spigot of money that gets dished out each year to the military- industrial and agribusiness complex, I am betting that we would see a lot more Detroits, all over America.


Agree, Rex.

And some claim that Federal money spending is non-productive and inferior to private industrial production. I am still wrestling with that one.



RedStapler -> RE: Detroit. (8/3/2010 10:01:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

3. A decided welfare mentality. After a lot of flight of professionals, a large group remains behind, on welfare.



Very good post, and while I am pondering the other issues, just wanted to touch on this one for starters-

No one ever notices or criticizes the "welfare mentality" of successful thriving communities- its only once the gravy train stops and the place becomes a ghost town that we begin moralizing on the helpless welrfare teat-suckers.

For instance- the vast majority of farms in America are large agri-business concerns, heavily subsidized by taxpayers; Without generous subsidies, most would be bankrupt in a year.
I don't see a lot of articles on why those folks in Texas or Nebraska are such helpless parasites.

Cities like San Diego, Norfolk, and others are heavily dependent on the military spending from bases; other cities are dependent on military procurement. If they were forced to stand on their own and produce goods for sale to the consumer market, they would revert to hardscrabble towns.
I don't see a lot of articles wringing our hands over how weak and pathological the people of Virginia or California are.

If the Federal gov't actually turned off the enormous spigot of money that gets dished out each year to the military- industrial and agribusiness complex, I am betting that we would see a lot more Detroits, all over America.




quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Agree, Rex.

And some claim that Federal money spending is non-productive and inferior to private industrial production. I am still wrestling with that one.


I also agree, but I have a different take on it. I am opposed to rampant military spending and agricultural subsidies. Yes, I understand that communities do hurt when the Federal gravy train dries up. But I believe US agriculture will survive with or without government assistance. Food prices might have to rise some, making locally grown produce even more attractive. Aerospace companies like Boeing don't rely on government contracts to stay in business - there are plenty of exports in the civilian market. US pharmaceutical companies will continue to sell new drugs all over the world. US chemical companies like DOW and DuPont will continue to make a fortune. And does anyone think that US media companies are going to have any trouble exporting American television and movies without a handout from the government? Is Coca-Cola going to go belly up?

Perhaps ending these programs would lead to more Detroits. I also believe it would lead to more Silicon Valleys and more Hollywoods. Without government support, the US will excel in what we do best - innovation, entertainment, marketing and branding.



kdsub -> RE: Detroit. (8/3/2010 10:37:09 PM)

There is a lot of structure there in place… lots of industrial real estate and a trainable eager workforce. If I were a City planner I would survey the available properties for compatibility with innovative green industry.

I would give massive 20 year tax incentives to any company that would join forces with the City to renovate old industry complexes and train new workers in alternate energy industries. Make Detroit a leader in the future energy needs of America...Get a theme going like other cities did for stem cell research.

As others have stated looks have a lot to do with the success of any renewal. I would condemn…use imminent domain and the courts to force negligent owners to fix up properties or tear them down to park land. This clean up could employee and provide recyclables. Get rid of the burnt and bordered buildings… Give tax breaks to those that clean up and repair their homes.

Rather than build and maintain housing projects use that money to fix up abandoned homes and rent to buy at low rates to families that would care more for their own home than a project.

Work with local neighborhood leaders to build trust in the police. Allow overview boards of police actions and get the citizens more involved in policing their own neighborhoods…give them hope of safe streets and a life without fear of crime.Get the police out of their cars and on the street interacting with the citizenry.

Just me but I think politicians should consider and lobby for urban renewal to be considered as part of Obama’s economic stimulus plan. What better way to stimulate a dead economy then to employ people to help themselves.

Butch



popeye1250 -> RE: Detroit. (8/3/2010 11:21:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

3. A decided welfare mentality.  After a lot of flight of professionals, a large group remains behind, on welfare.



Very good post, and while I am pondering the other issues, just wanted to touch on this one for starters-

No one ever notices or criticizes the "welfare mentality" of successful thriving communities- its only once the gravy train stops and the place becomes a ghost town that we begin moralizing on the helpless welrfare teat-suckers.

For instance- the vast majority of farms in America are large agri-business concerns, heavily subsidized by taxpayers; Without generous subsidies, most would be bankrupt in a year.
I don't see a lot of articles on why those folks in Texas or Nebraska are such helpless parasites.

Cities like San Diego, Norfolk, and others are heavily dependent on the military spending from bases; other cities are dependent on military procurement. If they were forced to stand on their own and produce goods for sale to the consumer market, they would revert to hardscrabble towns.
I don't see a lot of articles wringing our hands over how weak and pathological the people of Virginia or California are.

If the Federal gov't actually turned off the enormous spigot of money that gets dished out each year to the military- industrial and agribusiness complex, I am betting that we would see a lot more Detroits, all over America.




Rex, but all those farms are feeding half the world. If the govt stopped using our money to subsidise them countries like Somalia would have to go back to eating dung beatles.
As for Navy ships they have to be on the coast although I don't think Norfolk, Va is the best place for them with an hour and a half long sea detail to get into or out of the place. I think it's about 20 miles to get out into open water! Plus, it's just not a good idea to keep so many Naval ships in one place.
Portland Maine has a deep water harbor. So does Newport, R.I.
And don't even mention ending "foreign aid", we'll be barraged with "starving children commercials" paid for by the lobbyists and lawyers on K street in Washigton! (Ultimately paid for with Taxpayer Dollars!)
And the three "do nothing depts," Energy, Education and State could be ended as well saving us who knows how many tens of billions!



DomYngBlk -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 4:35:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

No, everyone asks for lower prices. All the time. Just ask people about the price of gas, bread, milk, cars, bananas, meat, chicken.....they will all say...we want a lower price!


DYB, perhaps I didn't explain my point well enough; the govt and big business "sold" us on lower prices so that they could get those "free trade" deals through, NAFTA, CAFTA etc..
Yet, big business is making "much higher profits" from those free trade deals so we're not getting the "full benefit" of lower prices.
If it costs Nike or the other shoe makers $2 to make a pair of athletic shoes (sneakers) in Maylaisia and they're selling them in the U.S. for $150 you're not really getting "lower prices" are you?
And, Americans aren't making them at good wages. So what's really going on is that those companies are cannibalizing their own markets, closing factories here and viola, we get,...Detroit.
If you're making $40 or $50 an hour "low prices" are "nice" but not essential.


Still didn't get my point either. People voted with their feet and wallets and stormed Walmart over the years instead of any other retailer....why? Low prices. And I am sure you complain about prices everyday. Its an american mantra that we repeat to our detriment. All you say about gov't and big business could be true but if people would buy local and buy quality then nothing from the Peoples Republic of China would ever reach port. Can blame others all we want when the problem is the American people....



DomYngBlk -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 4:42:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LT, I've never been like that, in my younger days if I needed something I'd save my money until I got enough.
Now, I buy "New Balance" sneakers at Sears for $20 or $30 and say CHARGE just so I can pay the credit card off.


But Pops, you moved from Mass to NH ,,,,why? Lower prices.....



LaTigresse -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 6:48:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

For instance- the vast majority of farms in America are large agri-business concerns, heavily subsidized by taxpayers; Without generous subsidies, most would be bankrupt in a year.
I don't see a lot of articles on why those folks in Texas or Nebraska are such helpless parasites.



Actually, I read an article recently that the greater percentage of government subsides are used by a very small (single digit) percentage of farms. Most farmers I know, would prefer the government get out of farming and leave them alone, they do not want the subsides. Primarily because of the compliance issues.



thishereboi -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 7:08:15 AM)

quote:

Still didn't get my point either. People voted with their feet and wallets and stormed Walmart over the years instead of any other retailer....why? Low prices. And I am sure you complain about prices everyday. Its an american mantra that we repeat to our detriment. All you say about gov't and big business could be true but if people would buy local and buy quality then nothing from the Peoples Republic of China would ever reach port. Can blame others all we want when the problem is the American people....


I would have to agree with this. Not sure how we can change that though.



BoiJen -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 7:37:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a lot of structure there in place… lots of industrial real estate and a trainable eager workforce. If I were a City planner I would survey the available properties for compatibility with innovative green industry.


Most of the industrial real estate INSIDE the city limits of Detroit is abandoned, has been for years (if not decades), and not worth saving as it would be cheaper to demolish and rebuild.

boi



BoiJen -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 7:46:41 AM)

I actually think the saving grace for Detroit would be similar to that of Philadelphia about a decades back. Philly politicians got votes by telling the population "We'll clean up the city and make corporations pay for it." How did they do it?

Politicians lined their pockets, getting their hands dirty by basically giving away commercial lots and contracts for reconstruction. In turn, because the local law makers were smart, Philadelphia instituted a requirement that ANY commercial contractor or company moving inside of the city limits was required to contribute to a revitalization fund for the city an amount equal to a percentage of their net costs for building or operating. Well, the companies and contractors were getting ridiculously low contracts within the city. So it was worth it to suck up the cost of paying into the city and corrupt city officials' pockets because it was STILL cheaper than moving or operating else where and the city got the makeover it needed.

I really do think Detroit could easily make that happen and bring business and life back to the city.

I dunno...if that kind of thing would work for Detroit, maybe they would have tried it already. Who knows?

boi



DomYngBlk -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 12:10:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a lot of structure there in place… lots of industrial real estate and a trainable eager workforce. If I were a City planner I would survey the available properties for compatibility with innovative green industry.


Most of the industrial real estate INSIDE the city limits of Detroit is abandoned, has been for years (if not decades), and not worth saving as it would be cheaper to demolish and rebuild.

boi



Nice use for TARP money instead of bailing out the Bankers....



DomYngBlk -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 12:11:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Still didn't get my point either. People voted with their feet and wallets and stormed Walmart over the years instead of any other retailer....why? Low prices. And I am sure you complain about prices everyday. Its an american mantra that we repeat to our detriment. All you say about gov't and big business could be true but if people would buy local and buy quality then nothing from the Peoples Republic of China would ever reach port. Can blame others all we want when the problem is the American people....


I would have to agree with this. Not sure how we can change that though.



we agree? Hell has frozen over?



kdsub -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 12:30:01 PM)

All most industry needs to start up is a cheap roof and a cheap work force...Detroit has both...a roof is a roof but expensive if starting from scratch. There is a rail system in place as well as heavy industrial infrastructure. Old is not necessarily bad.

There is also a well trained, if unemployed, work force that would be willing to work for less…less is better than none and the future could bring posterity.

Butch



BoiJen -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 12:47:09 PM)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

The industrial real estate in Detroit is not currently salvageable, as in not structurally sound.

http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/apr2008/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_detroit.jpg

http://www.moonbattery.com/detroit_ruins.jpg

http://www.inspiringcities.org/images/content/detroit%20city%20poem%20by%20estimmel.jpg

http://www.alex3d.de/wp-content/detroit1.jpg

http://blogs.ubc.ca/ross/files/2009/03/reliques_01.jpg

http://sociology.berkeley.edu/faculty/wacquant/movies/detroit/DetroitRuinofCity.jpg

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0909/c_detroit_specl_0923.jpg

http://www.fastcompany.com/1571975/farming-the-city-in-order-to-save-it-demolishing-density-in-detroit

http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/detroit-rebuilding.jpg

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Detroit-300x300.jpg

http://animalnewyork.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/banksy_detroit_banksy.jpg

http://detroitfilms.com/files/2009/11/packer_plant_detroit_palm_tree.jpg

http://www.globalcrisisnews.com/wp-content/uploads/detroit.jpg

http://d2eosjbgw49cu5.cloudfront.net/soxfirst.com/imgname--detroit_struggles_to_bury_its_dead---50226711--images--detroit.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/04/detroit-ruins.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2208/2312959921_20c586ea26.jpg

http://api.ning.com/files/ttIC2jYKXzyikATB47blfSQbFzzP7oF-tSxK-yHkx1*RSo-aRZ4ZAWkGtf-7oEvUfxRF-jeqaSLtH7f8QUGEFIAWwg1mOYY5/6368_packard.jpg

http://www.eyemaze.net/blog/uploaded_images/DetroitPackard_07-735342.jpg

http://c0170361.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/214273_76199_1068fa41bd_p.jpg

NONE of these are photoshopped. The images are endless. Just type in "Packard Plant" or "Fisher Body Plant" and you'll end up looking at the LARGEST abandonments in the North American continent and they've been that way for more than a decade.

This "industrial real estate" cannot be salvaged, period. If you don't believe me, go, please, visit. You'll need good boots, maybe a mask as the chemicals used in constructing the structures are "leaking" into the ground and poisoning the air. With few exceptions, the rail system in Detroit has not been maintained or even finished in some areas.

You should really attempt to "see" the city, before making blanket statements about rebuilding. There's PLENTY of video and photos available on the net to give you an ample view of what's going on.

boi



pahunkboy -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 12:51:00 PM)

I do not have a good impression of Philly.

I did not care for it.

I thought Pittsburgh was nicer.



BoiJen -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 1:01:37 PM)

Hunky, I'm glad you understood the content of my post.

As for everybody else, please enjoy some photo-essays of Detroit:

http://www.marchandmeffre.com/index.html

http://www.forgottendetroit.com/

http://www.detroityes.com/home.htm

boi



kdsub -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 1:04:15 PM)

You did notice that some of your links were repeats and buildings that had nothing to do with industry did you not? Did you notice in many there was rail access and power? Have you any idea what it takes to start from scratch in heavy industry? Not only do you need transportation but power, sewers, water, storage and a local work force.

As bad as it looks in Detroit it has advantages over other cities because of its infrastructure.

I’m all for putting people to work cleaning up their city and it would be a great use of stimulus money. They need a progressive government aggressive in attracting industry and attacking social problems.

What they don’t need are people who throw up their hands at a problem because it is daunting…

Other cities have reinvented themselves and been successful why cannot Detroit?

Butch



BoiJen -> RE: Detroit. (8/4/2010 1:11:06 PM)

Just because the photos look similar, they aren't the same.

Hey, I'm all for fixing the problem.Getting businesses back in the city, hell, just tell Ford and GM to move their asses back and it would change damn near everything.

I'm just telling you it's not near as nice and simple as you might like or paint the picture to be. There is no industrial real estate available to use within the city. The rail lines are all but eaten away in most places. And the last summer I spent in Detroit we had something like 13 black out days in terms of power because the power company can't handle even it's current residential load. I hate to imagine the actual state of the sewers in and near the abandonments shown above.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a very BASIC problem that Detroit can't seem to fix on it's own for some reason...there's no money. when you get the funding straightened out, I'm damn near positive that the city can get it's shit together. The problem is that Coleman Young and his line of would-be-politician-thugs ran the city dry. The worst part? Detroit kept voting those same thugs into office! And those voting trends have to do with race. It has a HUGE deal to do with race.

You show me where the money comes from in the easy-to-rebuild plan, and I'll buy it. As I said in a previous post, Philadelphia traded city clean up for businesses. That's how they got the money. Where is Detroit going to get the money? (And don't any idiot asshole say "Detroit already got stimulus money" because I WILL find a way to slap you for it)

boi



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