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RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 8:14:44 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Playful,

I have to strongly disagree with a portion of your post!

Taking a collar away from a submissive once it is given should not be done lightly and as punishment, even more rarely. Part of the safe environment one strives to create is one where while misbehavior isn't tolerated, and yet they are still safe to act out (and get absolution and love through punishment. Yes, you don't want to reward bad behavior with attention, it is of course a balance. However, yanking that collar away is quite likely to destroy that sense of safety deeply if not permanently and irreparably..

< Message edited by CrappyDom -- 4/21/2006 8:15:54 AM >

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 21

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 8:42:38 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Infinityatl

I am fairly new to the lifestyle, but am very interested. I am lucky enough to have found a slave-curious significant other and soon to be wife. However, my slave is quite defiant at the moment, unfortunately, it's probably a testament to my beginner status. She has already hidden her collar along with a few other notable wrong doings.

I am looking for advice on how to break her properly, or new and innovative ways to punish a slave that help to force them into full cooperation.

I'd like to ask all of you who may have had an unruly slave at one time or another if I could borrow some of your better ideas or tricks of the trade, so to speak.

Thank you in advance for the advice!

I fully agree with what Level and LuckyAlbatross has already stated in response to this post. I would further amend to this that it is difficult to stop the erosive process of defiance and disrespect once it has begun. Though I feel it may already be too late, the idea of "nipping it in the bud" is quite accurate; if you are not a noble and respectable being in her eyes—if your force is not worthy of being obeyed in her mind and soul—you have done nothing more than offer a withering illusion of dominance. You are not her Master and she is certainly not your slave. Until you both have full understanding of and give honor to the terms you use—and then choose to live them—hiding the collar is perhaps the wisest thing to do at this point.

(in reply to Infinityatl)

Post #: 22

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 8:58:38 AM

1969slave

Posts: 40
Joined: 5/23/2005
Status: offline

when i have needed to be put in place and the whip was not acceptable 2 or 3 dips in a ice bath got me very agreeable.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 23

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 10:26:36 AM

cariad

Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline

*rubs tender and sore eyes after reading through all this*

girl has and will continue to stress: Communication, Communication, Communication.....

talk with her not just as a slave/sub but as a person, see what it is that is upsetting her so much that she is acting out.

girl has on several occasions acted out because she was upset about something that had happened to her that day, the day before, etc and had to be put back in place and by her former Master putting her back in her place she knew she had found the right one.

girl tends to do what a few of her fellow submissives have done and that is to push the buttons of a new Dom because if she can't trust that He will stop her in her tracks, how can she trust Him to cherish the gift of her submission? she can't.......plain and simple.

after girl has pushed the buttons, tried to get away with things she knows she has gotten away with before and found that she can't do that any more with the new Dom, she is happy, willing to submit to Him and obey His rules.

girl recently spoke with a Dom whom she is going to meet soon and was shown a contract of what He and His Alpha slave expect from a slave that will become Their cherished pet. girl read it, re-read it, sent it to her Protector (MasterWolverine), and re-re-read it with Him telling her where He saw things He had a problem with. together we spoke to the Dom and He agreed that would be a worse case scenario and the contract could be changed based on girls needs after He gets to know her.

what girl is trying to say is Communication is the most important thing in any relationship, be it an M/s, D/s or "Nilla" relationship, You must always be willing to sit and talk about things.

find out what she wants, needs, desires....then tell her Your wants, needs, desires, fantasies etc and work it into a contract of sorts saying: "I (name) and i (name) agree to the following: if at any time i/we get frustrated, instead of taking it out on the other or my (slave) misbehaving i/we will sit, talk and try to work it out, knowing that if i(slave) misbehave i will receive punishment"

something to that effect may work but only after You sit and talk with her about things....... if she will not give you the collar put her in chains for 24-48hrs over a weekend and tell her that once the collar is given back to You, You will release her from the chains. but make sure that when You put her in the chains she is not comfortable in them, not too tight but tight enough she will hate wearing them. (hehe ok so girl has a sadistic side to her, but seriously something like that would probably drive her nuts, especially if she is not used to it.) just girls opinion though

hope this helps and welcome to the boards....

Blessed Be

{edited for spelling mistakes, bad slave that she is lol.......seriously she is tired after a hard days work and being burnt like a lobster....so girl is going to find that neat thing someone once told her was rest and relaxation...}

< Message edited by cariad -- 4/21/2006 10:31:58 AM >

_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

(in reply to 1969slave)

Post #: 24

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 10:38:06 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

I would further amend to this that it is difficult to stop the erosive process of defiance and disrespect once it has begun. Though I feel it may already be too late, the idea of "nipping it in the bud" is quite accurate; if you are not a noble and respectable being in her eyes—if your force is not worthy of being obeyed in her mind and soul—you have done nothing more than offer a withering illusion of dominance. You are not her Master and she is certainly not your slave. Until you both have full understanding of and give honor to the terms you use—and then choose to live them—hiding the collar is perhaps the wisest thing to do at this point.

Excellent post.

To the OP, I would want to point out that at first you said she is 'slave-curious' then you refer to her as your slave. Really need to decide which one of those things is actually going on before taking any definitive action. Curiousity is one thing, having the heart of a slave is quite another. Your responses need to be appropriate to the situation and her as an individual. You are fairly new, she may have had longings for as far back as she can remember.. first things first.. find out. Best of luck to you.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 25

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 2:42:11 PM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Playful,

I have to strongly disagree with a portion of your post!

Taking a collar away from a submissive once it is given should not be done lightly and as punishment, even more rarely. Part of the safe environment one strives to create is one where while misbehavior isn't tolerated, and yet they are still safe to act out (and get absolution and love through punishment. Yes, you don't want to reward bad behavior with attention, it is of course a balance. However, yanking that collar away is quite likely to destroy that sense of safety deeply if not permanently and irreparably..

Sir Crappy,

Thats a joke right? Remeber Jerry Maguire? Show me the money? Shes playing her own version here, Show me the Master. She wants him to show that he can be what he says he can. This is not about commnunication, he can talk to her till hes blue in the face and falls over, but until he actually walks the walk instead of just talking it won''t matter she will continue the little escapades. As soon as he takes some control she wil settle down and then they need to go about laying the ground rules and expectations

And yes I absolutely meant that, as soon as she took the collar off to play hide and seek, she needs to hand it over.. No ifs, no ands, , no buts, if she doesn't respect it anymore than that she shouldn't have it

K

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 26

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 3:35:10 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Playful,

I think if you read my posts here and elsewhere you will see that I am not one for sparing the rod. What I am saying is that this woman is quite literally saying "find my submission" by hiding that collar. She clearly shouldn't be collared and he shouldn't be handing one out, but what is done is done.

Yanking off a woman's collar, figuratively or literally is only going to make this worse. It is tantamount to saying "I can't tame you so I am taking my ball and playing with someone weaker and less powerful than you" Change the locks on the house, put up a FOR SALE sign, buy a cat dish with her name on it, but whatever you do, don't go looking for that collar, make her bring it to you. Make it clear to her that unless he comes home and she is naked on her knees face down with her outstretched hands holding up her collar, that FOR SALE sign is going to read SOLD.

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 27

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 3:40:00 PM

Reasonable

Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

Sighs......."My way or the highway" is literally all that works with some. The one with the least to lose in a relationship is usually the one with the most power.

I've seen it time and again, especially with the more rigid sub types-if you can't show them you are willing to throw them away to keep your integrity-you'll lose them anyhow.

Curiouser and curiouser-but then,I never did really think of humans as rational creatures-only rationalizing ones.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 28

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 3:45:15 PM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

I fully agree with what Level and LuckyAlbatross has already stated in response to this post. I would further amend to this that it is difficult to stop the erosive process of defiance and disrespect once it has begun. Though I feel it may already be too late, the idea of "nipping it in the bud" is quite accurate; if you are not a noble and respectable being in her eyes—if your force is not worthy of being obeyed in her mind and soul—you have done nothing more than offer a withering illusion of dominance. You are not her Master and she is certainly not your slave. Until you both have full understanding of and give honor to the terms you use—and then choose to live them—hiding the collar is perhaps the wisest thing to do at this point.

I agree. I think you hit the nail on the head. If she doesn't believe she is your property, if she doesn't believe at her core that you need to be obeyed or you
-will - enforce your authority(and she won't like it)..then you are just chasing your tail.

She doesn't need "creative" punishments, she needs you to put your foot down and enforce YOUR will, YOUR desires, YOUR authority consistently. I would keep corrections simple for yourself and absolutely
-not- enjoyable for her in the least. She needs boundaries and is looking for you to create them and maintain them. Be prepared if you crack down for things to get worse before they get better. Stick with it. Like any conditioning program it takes time and things change slowly..but you can make unwanted behaviors/beliefs extinct and bring about new behaviors/beliefs. If you are willing to do the work. Good luck.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 29

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 3:52:08 PM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasonable

Sighs......."My way or the highway" is literally all that works with some. The one with the least to lose in a relationship is usually the one with the most power.

I've seen it time and again, especially with the more rigid sub types-if you can't show them you are willing to throw them away to keep your integrity-you'll lose them anyhow.

Curiouser and curiouser-but then,I never did really think of humans as rational creatures-only rationalizing ones.

This may not apply to anybody else but you are right in respect to me. I needed to know(still need to know) that he can take me or leave me..that he will not compromise his integrity, his independence, his sovereign rule over *his* life to keep me. He needs to be willing to throw me away if I stop being the right fit for his service. ..and if he isn't..I'd know it..it would change things. I don't know in exactly what way but what you said is spot on for me.

(in reply to Reasonable)

Post #: 30

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/21/2006 4:17:23 PM

Reasonable

Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

Smiles,I have had som past personal experience with the M/s dynamic chewsie. There has to be a degree of inflexibility-coupled with a reasonable degree of flexibility to rule over another.

The art to it is to know exactly where your core lies-and refuse to be pushed back beyond those boundaries. A man who will compromise who he is, just to be with someone will never qualify as master material-only one who plays at it.

A slave's ass will bounce off of the curbstones long before that can happen.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 31

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/22/2006 5:57:18 AM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

Crappy,

Normally I would never go just yanking a collar off , but in this case since they are both playing games with it, removing it from play is a good place to start. They need to hjave a long serious discussion on expectations, goals, desires, but first he has to put his foot down and act like hes in charge or else he might as well be talking to the wall.. I don't think she is going to take any conversation seriously until he shows he can take charge.

K

(in reply to Reasonable)

Post #: 32

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/22/2006 6:12:42 AM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

They both, obviously, have need of quite a bit of education and communication. They are no more prepared to involve themselves in a M/s relationship than they are a marriage. At this point, they are playacting M/s because they simply do not have enough information. They need to slam on the brakes, back up, and start over. Talk, talk, talk...discuss, discuss, discuss, research, research, research, learn, learn learn. If they truly want it badly enough, they'll do what it takes to achieve it. If not, there will be just one more divorce and one more release of a "slave" and a couple more wannabes masquerading as the real deal because they "lived" the lifestyle.

A collar, does not a Master or slave make.

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 33

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/22/2006 6:41:18 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

when this girl 'acts out" it is generally because she is feeling insecure or frightned but doesn't know how to put it into words.

when she acts out she 'hopes' Owners will control/comfort her belly.
this one isnt alwsy good at putting her feelings into words and previous treatment of others to her has created some unfortunate 'baggage' with trusting.

communicating is the best solution

< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 4/22/2006 6:42:15 AM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Infinityatl)

Post #: 34

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/22/2006 8:06:17 PM

ImpGrrl

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Infinityatl,

Ignore Albatrosse's advice at your peril.

Agreed.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 35

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/23/2006 12:48:39 AM

TemptingNviceSub

Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Submissives are generally much more secure, responsive and obedient when their Dominant is in charge. Apparent defiance etc, especially early in a D/s relationship, generally comes from insecurity, not enough trust and a fear that their Dom may not be able to control them. So they test the boundaries to find out....

There's nothing sinister or devious about it; it's like a poker game and she's calling you. She'll show you hers when you show yours! You're the Dom, so you lead the way - *show* her who's in charge!

Right now, hiding collars etc suggests she's controlling you or at least your relationship dynamic. If your response is gonna be to find "innovative ways to punish" her, then expect many sleepless nights and lotsa misery in between servicing *her* needs when she wants it.

ORRRR....!

You could try taking charge of her! That is, you don't give her anything she wants until she's earnt it. Spankings, floggings, bondage etc are NOT punishments to submissives; they're generally what they crave, depending on the individual. Further, every sub I've known or owned is an attention junkie and even your frustration with her behaviour qualifies as attention. So you start with some basic rules (like producing the damned collar for starters), and you reward or ignore her needs depending on how she performs.

It's not about hidden collars, punishment or even tricks. It's totally about control and who has it. Believe me, there's nothing a sub loves more than the security of knowing she's NOT the boss who can do as she pleases - and yours is hoping you're in charge!

Batter up!

Focus.

..pretty much agree with Focus on this one,,,,but I will have to ponder about the attention junkie statement....humm..possible......Tempting

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 36

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/23/2006 1:19:10 AM

DolceFarNeinte

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

I think you should rise to the occashion my dear,the perfect oppertunity to plunge her head into a freezing bath.Very refreshing for the mind lol.Shes testing you,you have to be strong,and cruel to be kind.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 37

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/23/2006 7:36:30 AM

ImpGrrl

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

This is in reply to *all* who said that the OPer should "take charge", "show her who is boss", etc.

If you do that, OPer, she has won. You have given in to her manipulation.

That might be OK for you - if so, go for it. But if not, the only way to *truly* "show her who is boss" is to let her know that you won't stand for this P/A manipulative BS. Which basically means, taking LA's advice, and if that doesn't work - ignore her BS by possibly ignoring *her*.

That's one way.

Basically - if an s-type acts out to "test" you, she's manipulating you. The question is - are you OK with that, or not? If so - sure, show her who's boss. Take charge. Blah blah blah.

If not? Tell her how unacceptable her actions are, and expect her to act like the adult that she's supposed to be, and not a petulant P/A child.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Submissives are generally much more secure, responsive and obedient when their Dominant is in charge. Apparent defiance etc, especially early in a D/s relationship, generally comes from insecurity, not enough trust and a fear that their Dom may not be able to control them. So they test the boundaries to find out....

There's nothing sinister or devious about it; it's like a poker game and she's calling you. She'll show you hers when you show yours! You're the Dom, so you lead the way - *show* her who's in charge!

Right now, hiding collars etc suggests she's controlling you or at least your relationship dynamic. If your response is gonna be to find "innovative ways to punish" her, then expect many sleepless nights and lotsa misery in between servicing *her* needs when she wants it.

ORRRR....!

You could try taking charge of her! That is, you don't give her anything she wants until she's earnt it. Spankings, floggings, bondage etc are NOT punishments to submissives; they're generally what they crave, depending on the individual. Further, every sub I've known or owned is an attention junkie and even your frustration with her behaviour qualifies as attention. So you start with some basic rules (like producing the damned collar for starters), and you reward or ignore her needs depending on how she performs.

It's not about hidden collars, punishment or even tricks. It's totally about control and who has it. Believe me, there's nothing a sub loves more than the security of knowing she's NOT the boss who can do as she pleases - and yours is hoping you're in charge!

Batter up!

Focus.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 38

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/23/2006 8:22:52 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Infinityatl

I am fairly new to the lifestyle, but am very interested. I am lucky enough to have found a slave-curious significant other and soon to be wife. However, my slave is quite defiant at the moment, unfortunately, it's probably a testament to my beginner status. She has already hidden her collar along with a few other notable wrong doings.

I am looking for advice on how to break her properly, or new and innovative ways to punish a slave that help to force them into full cooperation.

I'd like to ask all of you who may have had an unruly slave at one time or another if I could borrow some of your better ideas or tricks of the trade, so to speak.

Thank you in advance for the advice!

First off, in my mind "Slave" and "unruly or defiant" don't belong in the same sentence. The slave mindset would generally prohibit them from doing these sort of antics in the first place. You can't force submission, it has to come from within. Yes, you can take the upper hand, be the lead, exercise control, but you have to have a willing participant to start with. It's not a thing that they do, it is who they are. If there are discipline issues then maybe there is a wire crossed somewhere. There is no real breaking in period, it's all about respect, communication, honesty and trust...all of these elements must be present. If you feel that the collar incident is just a game, perhaps a test of you, I would simply purchase one that can't be removed short of using a cutting torch...problem solved. If on the other hand this is a symbolic gesture telling you that you are in no way, shape of form going to control her, then you have other issues to resolve that only communication and understanding of both of your goals is going to work out. Good luck.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Infinityatl)

Post #: 39

RE: New Master + Defiant Slave.. Help? - 4/23/2006 9:33:30 PM

HeracyLost

Posts: 3
Joined: 11/18/2005
Status: offline

     <Insert dramatic sigh> There is a fine line between pushing limits and disrespect, I do not know about others but I do not tolerate unruley subs or slaves. Seems to me she wants to push you over the edge to see your reactions, and or get a reaction. I know I would not tolerate a sub hiding her collar nor would I tolerate her trying to bring you down with what seems to me petty battle of wills.
    I myself would tell you to stand up and tell her ether nock it off or walk. You are here so I would say its really getting under your skin and that is not a good thing. Time and place for everything but in doses, small doses when it comes to matters like that.
    You say you want new and inventive ways of breaking her in, I would just deny her the attention she seeks, for such a span of time that it nedded for her to think it through. I well know that some things are just not worth the aggravation.

(in reply to Infinityatl)

Post #: 40

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