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RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:00:50 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Rights aren`t subject to popular elections or referendums.


That`s why they`re called rights.



Rights are only those things defined as rights under the law. Law is supposed to be set by the people..ie via elections or referendums.


OMG Will, where did you ever come up with the notion that rights are granted only by the legislature?
Whatever happened to inalienable rights and human rights?

I don't believe in either. They are a legal and religious fiction. It is very easy to substantiate. Different societies grant different rights. If there were "inalienable human rights" then they would be universally adapted.




Whatever happened to checks and balances of the three branches of government? Nothing I said violates checks and balances. The legislature legistlates, SCOTUS and POTUS dont.



Do you mean to claim that the function of the SCOTUS is to affirm only those things granted by the Legislative Branch?
This is so obvious I must be missing your point.


Do you mean that all the Case Law affirmed by the Appelate Division and by SCOTUS were only charades and had no effect in Law?
That doesnt follow from what I said.



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RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:05:05 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
If that is correct, then what does "equal protection" mean? Is granting a right to a limited group the same as not protecting those outside the group? What did the framers mean by "protection" in this context? And to Elizabeth Anne's point, is civil union, which is permitted in Ca, equal to marriage? Methinks it is.

Giving homosexuals the seperate but unequal civil unions in place of marriage is a violation of equal protection. This flows right out of the Brown v Board and subsequent rulings.

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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:06:58 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Rights aren`t subject to popular elections or referendums.


That`s why they`re called rights.



Rights are only those things defined as rights under the law. Law is supposed to be set by the people..ie via elections or referendums.


WRONG. Elections do not enumerate our rights, the CONSTITUTION does... seriously, where did you learn American Civics from?


ORLY. I ddint realize the Constitution appeared magically out of thin air.


The constitution was formed by constitutional convention. It was framed by a handful of people. There was no "election" or "referendum" in framing the constitution.

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RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:07:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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That isnt what Ms Liz meant, from what i read of her post. I took it as meaning all unions should be called "civil unions" and marriage simply being the religious ceremony, but having no place in the law.

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:09:30 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I was just hoping to have an actual debate on this in terms of the legal language. Oh well...

Off to "celebrate!"

the other boi

lol


BoiJen, so what do you think, you and me?
A trip to Calif. marriage by a J.P. and then off to Vegas for our honeymoon???

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:10:43 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML



Again, this is not a right granted to a limited group. Every person (not group) has protection from injustice, both procedural and substantive. So, conversely you cannot grant the right to marriage to some persons and not to others. Doesn't matter if there is an alternative. In 1953 public school integration ruling the SCOTUS struck down "seperate but equal" as an acceptable doctrine.


Not sure what "this" you are referring to. I was referring to "marriage", which in the extant case, is a "right" being granted a limited group, couples of opposite gender. As I said, does "protection" include that right. It may or may not.

As far as Brown goes, there is a considerable difference between "separate but equal" with regard to education, where there is the possibility of substantial inquality in the funds allocated to those separate groups, vs a "marriage license" vs "civil union license".

I would not be all surprised if SCOTUS knocks prop 8 down. All Im saying is that it isnt a slam dunk that it will, and there are significant differences between this issue and anything previously decided.


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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:12:10 PM   
BoiJen


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Only if you're paying for all of it and if you completely understand that the woman I bring with me, is the only person who's legs will end up around my ears or on my ass.

If we're good with that and the prenup says I get everything but your debt, we should be good :-)

boi

PS> I'm a pretty decent tax write off being a full time student and all.


< Message edited by BoiJen -- 8/5/2010 8:14:21 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:12:38 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
Sadly many only wish it to work that way when it supports their view.


It's a real shame some jump to conclusions about another's view...As mine is clearly posted on previous gay marriage threads as being all for allowing homosexuals to marry and be happy.

My problem stems from a federal judge trumping state's rights and laws. But like I said it's just a matter of time until the pendulum swings to the right, and some conservative federal judge will trump say for instance, California's marijuana laws.



Fuks sakes man, there are 27 Amendments to the Constitution. Only the 10th speaks to State's Rights. The 14th speaks to Equal Protection for citizens and was proudly passed by Republicans. The 14h asserts the States shall provide Equal Protection. Yep, those good ol days of the right of States to regulate their negras as private property has been whittled away. Sob!


Actually most of the Constitution speaks to states rights since it delineates and limits the Federal governments power. Everything else is either a state or individual right.


Not so, Will. Have a look at the Case Law that supported Social Security Legislation under the General Welfare Clause in the 1930s.

Furthermore, the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments clearly proscribe State governements from certain actions. Certainly, the 14th is very emphatic in telling the States what they cannot do to "persons" within their jurusdictions.

Look also at the 19th, 24th and 26th Amendments which further limit State actions.


What you said does not contradict anything I said.

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:14:48 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Rights aren`t subject to popular elections or referendums.


That`s why they`re called rights.



Rights are only those things defined as rights under the law. Law is supposed to be set by the people..ie via elections or referendums.


WRONG. Elections do not enumerate our rights, the CONSTITUTION does... seriously, where did you learn American Civics from?


ORLY. I ddint realize the Constitution appeared magically out of thin air.


The constitution was formed by constitutional convention. It was framed by a handful of people. There was no "election" or "referendum" in framing the constitution.


ORLY. And exactly who attended said Constitutional Convention and what was their role?

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:14:52 PM   
popeye1250


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What a Tease!

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 8:17:28 PM   
BoiJen


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What? These are my terms for the contract. This is one of those things where this is no negotiating room either.

boi


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/5/2010 11:25:06 PM   
VideoAdminRho


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FR
Please trim your quotes, folks. No one needs to see umpteen nested posts/replies to get your point.
If you do not know how to do so, there is a helpful tutorial in the 'Test' forum.
Thank you!

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 3:47:17 AM   
ElizabethAnne


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Taz,

Yes that's exactly what I meant.  Eliminate the word marriage, the word has religious connotations.  I don't know if California regards civil unions the same as marriage.  The 1st Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

So you have the government determining what a "marriage" constitutes, how does that not violate MY freedom of religion?   If a person chooses to have a religious ceremony, great it's THEIR choice, not to be mandated by government. 

Elizabeth

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 5:49:05 AM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Except it isn't "gender discrimination" nor a violation of the equal protections clause as decided under the current law which already has clearly deliniated protected classes as the defining premise for any legal argument invoking it. The fact that you keep saying you see it that way, doesn't change the rulings on the issue. It is actually going to have to be addressed for what it is. A nonprotected class that should be recognized as a protected class and it's questionable whether the USSC will have the courage to do so.


Protected class was a phrase that was defined and grew out of the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960s. It is not in the lexicon of the 14th Amendment except as an invention in your mind. I don't mean to be rude but the Equal Protection Clause which states as Willbeur quoted it above:

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Amendment says nothing about nor does it pertain to "protected class" unless you can cite some case law to the contrary; it clearly protects persons.



Really? Well tell me what standards of review the USSC uses when considering the equal protection clause and how they determine what level of a standard they will employ? Could it be that is ultimately comes down to the classification and whether it impedes a status they have previously found as protected? Yes, I believe it is. Let me tell you how it works:

The Court only applies the highest standard and is likely to find that a law that classifies individuals violates the equal protection clause when they apply the strict scutiny standard of review (under which the law/classification in question must be pursued to promote a compelling or overriding interest of the government and must be necessary and narrowly tailored to promote that compelling interest). That standard of review is only applied to cases involving race or national origin. Thus, the only truly protected classes thus far under the Court's reasoning in this area do not include gender. Until they change that, they will apply the lower standards of the "rational relationship" test (under which a law need only conceivably contain a classification that bears a rational relationship to an end of government which is not prohibited by the Constitution) or Intermediate review (hybrid standard).

Yes the language used in applying the standards is almost identical to the analysis under due process questions...additionally this judge ruled the law unconsitutional under BOTH due process rights and the equal protection clause. The Supreme Court isn't that novel in their approach to these two types of questions.

It's easy to toss out words from the Constitution, it is NOT simple to analyze what the Court will do without looking at the standards and tests that are applied to each consitutional question that is presented to them. As it stands right now, the USSC has refused to apply the standard of strict scrutiny to questions such as the one presented in this case. Without that strict standard, the law is likely to be upheld by the Court as Constitutional under the Equal Protection Clause. Unless they put sexual orientation in some form whether it be sexual orientation or gender in the same protected status that they have found with race and national origin that standard doesn't apply. However, that does not mean they won't consider the issue under a separate due process analysis and find it lacking in that regard.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/6/2010 5:57:13 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 6:16:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


As far as Brown goes, there is a considerable difference between "separate but equal" with regard to education, where there is the possibility of substantial inquality in the funds allocated to those separate groups, vs a "marriage license" vs "civil union license".


Seperate but equal is not defined by inequality of funds in the extant case. Rather by cultural inequality. This from Perry:

"The availability of domestic partnership does not provide gays and lesbians with a status equivalent to marriage because the cultural meaning of marriage and its associated benefits are intentionally withheld from same-sex couples in domestic partnerships. [SNIP]

Plaintiffs do not seek recognition of a new right. To characterize plaintiffs’ objective as “the right to same-sex marriage” would suggest that plaintiffs seek something different from what opposite-sex couples across the state enjoy —— namely, marriage. Rather, plaintiffs ask California to recognize their relationships for what they are: marriages. [SNIP]

The evidence shows that domestic partnerships do not fulfill California’s due process obligation to plaintiffs for two reasons.

First, domestic partnerships are distinct from marriage and do not provide the same social meaning as marriage.

Second, domestic partnerships were created specifically so that California could offer same-sex couples rights and benefits while explicitly withholding marriage from same-sex couples. Id, Cal Fam Code § 297 (Gov Davis 2001 signing statement: “In California, a legal marriage is between a man and a woman. * * * This [domestic partnership] legislation does nothing to contradict or undermine the definition of a legal marriage.”).

The evidence at trial shows that domestic partnerships exist solely to differentiate same-sex unions from marriages. FF 53-54. A domestic partnership is not a marriage; while domestic partnerships offer same-sex couples almost all of the rights and responsibilities associated with marriage, the evidence shows that the withholding of the designation “marriage” significantly disadvantages plaintiffs. FF 52-54. The record reflects that marriage is a culturally superior status compared to a domestic partnership. FF 52. California does not meet its due process obligation to allow plaintiffs to marry by offering them a substitute and inferior institution that denies marriage to samesex couple."

quote:

I would not be all surprised if SCOTUS knocks prop 8 down. All Im saying is that it isnt a slam dunk that it will, and there are significant differences between this issue and anything previously decided.


I wouldn't either, but for precedent regarding the burden on the State see especially Lawrence v Texas. Again from Perry:

"A state’s interest in an enactment must of course be secular in nature. The state does not have an interest in enforcing private moral or religious beliefs without an accompanying secular purpose. See Lawrence v Texas, 539 US 558, 571 (2003); see also Everson v Board of Education of Ewing
Township, 330 US 1, 15 (1947)."


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RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 6:23:28 AM   
laurell3


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They could decide it under something as simple as the ruling in Boddie v. Connecticut, that is the right to privacy extending to access to marital (and divorce) decisions. It's impossible to tell, but they have skirted around any ruling that directly addresses the issue of homosexuality several times in the past.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/6/2010 6:37:13 AM >


_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 7:12:34 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

laurell3:

Really? Well tell me what standards of review the USSC uses when considering the equal protection clause and how they determine what level of a standard they will employ? Could it be that is ultimately comes down to the classification and whether it impedes a status they have previously found as protected? Yes, I believe it is. Let me tell you how it works:

The Court only applies the highest standard and is likely to find that a law that classifies individuals violates the equal protection clause when they apply the strict scutiny standard of review (under which the law/classification in question must be pursued to promote a compelling or overriding interest of the government and must be necessary and narrowly tailored to promote that compelling interest). That standard of review is only applied to cases involving race or national origin. Thus, the only truly protected classes thus far under the Court's reasoning in this area do not include gender. Until they change that, they will apply the lower standards of the "rational relationship" test (under which a law need only conceivably contain a classification that bears a rational relationship to an end of government which is not prohibited by the Constitution) or Intermediate review (hybrid standard).


I understand the need to classify individuals for the purposes of consideration. It is part and parcel of our cognitive construct. But I think you are perhaps mistaken that only protected classes warrent the strict scrutiny review and the only protected classes to date are race and national origin. Clearly the liberty of individuals to engage in sexual oriented behavior has been decided. I do not have the Lawrence Decision so i rely on Wiki:

"The majority decision also held that "the intimate, adult consensual conduct at issue here was part of the liberty protected by the substantive component of the Fourteenth Amendment's due process protections." Holding that "the Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual," the court struck down the anti-sodomy law as unconstitutional.

Kennedy's opinion grounded the right of consenting adults to have sex on how intimate and personal the conduct was to those involved, not on the conduct being traditionally protected by society (as in Bowers), procreative (as in Eisenstadt and Roe), or conducted by married people (as in Griswold). This opened the door in theory to protection of a whole host of sexual activity between consenting adults not protected by other decisions. Kennedy's did not extend the opinion to include governmental recognition of such relationships."

And this from the Perry case just decided that the government's burden of a right deemed to be fundamental must withstand strict scrutiny review:

"Due process protects individuals against arbitrary governmental intrusion into life, liberty or property. See Washington v Glucksberg, 521 US 702, 719-720 (1997). When legislation burdens the exercise of a right deemed to be fundamental, the government must show that the intrusion withstands strict scrutiny. Zablocki v Redhail, 434 US 374, 388 (1978).

THE RIGHT TO MARRY PROTECTS AN INDIVIDUAL’S CHOICE OF MARITAL PARTNER REGARDLESS OF GENDER
The freedom to marry is recognized as a fundamental right protected by the Due Process Clause. See, for example, Turner v
Safely, 482 US 78, 95 (1987)
(“[T]he decision to marry is a fundamental right” and marriage is an “expression[ ] of emotional support and public commitment.”); Zablocki, 434 US at 384 (1978) (“The right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals.”); Cleveland Board of Education v LaFleur, 414 US 632, 639-40 (1974) (“This Court has long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.”); Loving v Virginia, 388 US 1, 12 (1967) (The “freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.”); Griswold v Connecticut, 381 US 479, 486 (1965)"

It appears that it is the nature of the individual right that is protected and not the nature of the class of individuals. So, we shall see what SCOTUS does. It will be interesting I think.







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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 7:41:19 AM   
laurell3


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Ok, you're actually saying the same thing I did, but it's apples and oranges. You are combining equal protection cases with due process cases. Read my post again, and your response and you may see that I was addressing the issue of the Equal Protection Clause and the necessity for a clear ruling finding this a "suspect" class in order to finally resolve the issue.

It is essentially the same standard and tests applied for both equal protection and substantive due process for different reasons and I do think that one or the other will be applied here and BOTH were applied by the lower court in their finding stiking the law as unconstitutional. But they aren't the same as far as what fundamental rights/groups the Court has recognized as those bearing strict scrutiny.

I do think that they will employ a similar line of reasoning as to what you are suggesting, although I believe the issue really properly lies in the area of equal protection as it is a law that allows access based on a classification system, which is THE focus of the equal protection clause. However, the USSC does an odd jump back and forth between when they apply either of these doctrines that doesn't make all that much logical sense historically, but allows them to control the extent to which they want to vary the law overall. Courts are sneaky like that and it makes for goofball precedent that is difficult to apply.

Lawerence (lawerence and bowers were both partially overturned subsequesntly by the way BECAUSE of their refusal to decide the ultimate issue) is a due process case, not equal protection. The Court found a fundamental right of privacy that was protected in that case, and declined to decide that case as it was presented under the equal protection clause. That is my point, they most likely WILL NOT deal with the issue of homosexuality at all. As I suggested earlier, they might make it rather simple and extend their earlier decisions that the fundamental right of privacy extends to access to marriage, but that doesn't resolve the overall issue of other laws that are based on gender and sexual orientation, it only makes THIS law invalid. I am hopeful that they will have the courage and knowlege to realize that it is time to make a ruling that makes ALL of these laws based on sexual orientation invalid and recognize another suspect class that bears strict scrutiny. It would be a landmark case for sure, but it is time.

There is NO one right answer when it comes to the law, especially constitutional law which is very complex. There are only valid arguments and arguments that don't really address the Court's previous findings and thus not really applicable, but there are MANY valid arguments and ways that situations such as this can be argued.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 7:50:26 AM   
laurell3


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Has anyone seen a cite to the full 134 page decision on this case? Yes, I am a geek, I want to read it and I cannot find a full decision online.

_____________________________

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage i... - 8/6/2010 8:14:45 AM   
AsmodaisSin


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Look, I'm not gay, but at the end of the day, they should be treated equally and given the same right as straight people, just as blacks were given the same rights.  I haven't done the research to know if homosexuality is a choice or a by birth nature.  I won't claim to know one way or another. 

What I am sick and tired of, though, is the people who are such bigots about the entire thing.  If someone wants the right to screw a cow or a kid, then they should be stopped, but these are adults who want to be married.  Consenting adults.  (With that being said, I think the age of majority across the board should be 18). 

We have much bigger fish to fry, and denying gays the right to marriage seems like a rather petty, stupid, childish thing to do.  If the SCOTUS finds Prop 8 to be unconstitutional, then that's the choice of the SCOTUS, though. 

Let's worry about more important things like Afghanistan, the border, supporting Arizona...making anchor babies illegal.  O_o  Just some idears.


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