RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 11:40:58 AM)
On an individual level in a free society our power usually has to be given away....

sirsholly -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 11:47:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: what did i take out of context, please? You took the first line of my response and did not read the rest of it apparently... like where I said this: quote: Me: Now the labeling that occurs around here is really tame in comparison, but since you asked, I thought I would demonstrate ways that it is done. I am not comparing labeling a sub a "brat" and labeling a Jew a "cockroach"... seriously, I am not that dramatic. Why did you leave that part off, Holly because of its irrelevance. It changes nothing, Julia. quote: it didn't help in painting me as a loon? you do not require my assistance. You are doing quite the capital job on your own. quote: I really thought you wanted to have a civil discussion. I was wrong and I will log this interchange for future reference in dealing with your posts. please do... quote: I really find it quite much when someone asks you a question such as "how can labels negate entire countries?" and when you come up with the most obvious example you can think of they cut it out of the entire post to make it sound like you are drawing a direct analogy... Again, the part of i did not quote had zero relevance...but hang on to the "I was misquoted" horseshit when challenged, Julia. Works well.[8\|]

juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 11:53:00 AM)
quote: Again, the part of i did not quote had zero relevance...but hang on to the "I was misquoted" horseshit when challenged, Julia. Works well. I did not say you misquoted me... I said you took what I said out of context... again, another way of misrepresenting what I said, just a different technique in doing so[8\|] There is no crime in disagreeing with people. I have no problem with the fact you disagree with me. I do have a problem with people taking my statements out of context... YOU asked me a question about how labels have negated people in on a large scale, I answered with an example. You do not try to say that those labels weren't used in the way I claim, you just attack the example I used and attempt to make it look as though I was comparing the two.. Funny, no one but you had trouble understanding my point....

lally2 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 11:53:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania .There are a lot of newbies that take these labels much more seriously than I do damn right! something i was yanked around by was 'youre not submissive' - in the earlier years when i was trying to find my way, determined to find my place and damn sure id found me this guy came along and that was how he controlled me. i remember the anger i felt when he said that, it twisted inside me really badly. each time he said it id be screaming inside because it was like taking away a big chunk of me and telling me i had no right to it. the thing was, i much later realised, that i wasnt submissive to him. i was submissive, just not submissive to asshats. but at the time it really was a very negative and destructive thing and after it ended it took me a good two years to come back to this. at their most toxic these people can turn a life off track and i really do positively despise them for it - there ive said it - back me up to a wall and shoot me [:)] Maybe one person will read this post and they will learn something incredibly valuable from it... if that happens I am glad I started this thread, and I am doubly thankful you replied to it... thank you for sharing, lally fingers crossed - [:)]

sirsholly -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 12:03:02 PM)
quote: Funny, no one but you had trouble understanding my point.... hey...i just pointed out the obvious bullshit.

porcelaine -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 12:21:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 i think thats quite normal though, when youre first starting out on something, the novice learner trying to grapple the ropes. Newness has nothing to do with insecurity and in my opinion that's the crux of most of this. quote: newbie subs do enter on the bottom rung of power in that respect and are easily washed in and out by the tidal wave of predatory asshats. There's a big difference between being ignorant of BDSM and lacking fundamental life skills. Inexperience doesn't make you fragile, sensitive, prone to being manipulated, frenzied, immature, thin skinned, or anything other than the obvious. ~porcelaine

lally2 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 12:29:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes, it is well documented that this happens.... Joseph Goebbels made it into a science, although people have been doing it since the dawn of time. You want to dehumanize the enemy you attach labels to them such as "cannibal" or "baby killers". You call them things like "cockroaches" and "rats" and you say things like they must be "exterminated".... Derogatory terms I would post here would get me moderated because they are against TOS (rightly so) that negate entire countries of human beings.... Racial terms, for example. OK, so here's the way I see it. Let's suppose that I decide you're... I dunno... Not a true sub. Carol and I start referring to you as a fake between the two of us. Clearly, at that point, we have negated you IN OUR MINDS. Subsequently, let's assume I post all over CM that Julia is a fake. So now, I'm perhaps negating you in a few other people's minds (highly dubious if you ask me). But all of the minds that you have been totally or partially negated in are people you don't know and have no reason to respect. I didn't negate YOU. I negated the you that exists in my own brain. YOU still tick along nicely being you. Turning the shoe around. I don't punish Carol. I readily admit that she is my life partner with or without a collar. I'm not a sadist. I think the description "service dominant" is a pretty decent description of me. I'm not particularly kinky. I'm not into fetishes. I don't wear leather. I don't eroticize any of this. And, perhaps most damningly of all, I have openly said here and elsewhere that I have issues with being sexually assertive/dominant. In short, it's a pretty reasonable statement to say that "I'm not a true [BDSM] master." At various times various people HAVE said that. All of which is fine and dandy because whatever it is that I am is making me and Carol really happy. NOBODY can negate the reality that exists in Carol's and my living room. All they can do is inform me that I don't match their internal description of what a "master" is. shrugs That's handy information for the sake of continuing to converse with this person. I ask "OK, so in your language, what would you call my relationship" then use those terms. But how did any of that negate me or Carol? i can answer that, if its ok [:)] to call someone a fake when they are not a fake, based on one persons assumption and then spread around a place where that person enjoys contributing and considers their contributions valid and worth giving would be upsetting - how would they ever be able to disprove or negate that rumour. to say to you that youre not a true BDSM Master isnt taking any view, isnt suggesting any bias, isnt leaping to an unsustainable assumption, its simply and purely taking youre own words and repeating them. no harm no foul the first is accusatory and damaging the second is plain and simple fact as you see it. theres a world of difference.

lally2 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 12:42:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 i think thats quite normal though, when youre first starting out on something, the novice learner trying to grapple the ropes. Newness has nothing to do with insecurity and in my opinion that's the crux of most of this. quote: newbie subs do enter on the bottom rung of power in that respect and are easily washed in and out by the tidal wave of predatory asshats. There's a big difference between being ignorant of BDSM and lacking fundamental life skills. Inexperience doesn't make you fragile, sensitive, prone to being manipulated, frenzied, immature, thin skinned, or anything other than the obvious. ~porcelaine . in the collective, if we put all of the really strong,self aware, fully empowered types and mix them in with the unsure, fragile, sensitive, prone to being manipulated, frenzied, immature etc., [:)] types and jiggle it about im sure the findings would even out to something in the middle. i dont lack fundamental life skills at all. im very capable at life generally, but i am sensitive, i am prone to being manipulated, i was frenzied and i was immature and i know im not the only person like me to toddle into this world and fall flat on my face. it only took once, believe me, im a fast learner, but it happened.

hardbodysub -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 5:03:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I just wanted to ask, what are the negative labels that dominants get tagged with, besides maybe "wannabe" or "fake"? You need to read more closely. In the general public dominant in it's darker light is seen as all sorts of synonyms for "asshole". Here, on the boards, there is the general assumption that if somehow, something didn't work then it is pretty much because the Dom was an asshole just wanting to score some quick pussy before he tossed her aside. I disagree. The general assumption isn't that problems are the fault of the "Dom". The general assumption is that problems are the fault of the male, whether dominant or submissive.

leadership527 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 5:45:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub I disagree. The general assumption isn't that problems are the fault of the "Dom". The general assumption is that problems are the fault of the male, whether dominant or submissive. Interesting hardbody. Obviously, because of the self-serving gender bias involved, I'm going to want to think about that very, very carefully. But I do think you might be right. Obviously, we're talking broad generalities here and examples of either side can be brought up. At a bare minimum, I agree that there is a male bias... whether or not it is connected to, the same as, or separate from any sort of dom bias or sub bias is worth thinking about. I actually commented on this once with a female dominant. She had posted something exactly identical to a thing I'd posted a few times previously. In my case, I'd learned it's best just not to talk about this on the internet because it really, really annoyed people. In her case, nobody seemed to think a thing of it.

porcelaine -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 6:39:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Obviously, we're talking broad generalities here and examples of either side can be brought up. At a bare minimum, I agree that there is a male bias... whether or not it is connected to, the same as, or separate from any sort of dom bias or sub bias is worth thinking about. I actually commented on this once with a female dominant. She had posted something exactly identical to a thing I'd posted a few times previously. In my case, I'd learned it's best just not to talk about this on the internet because it really, really annoyed people. In her case, nobody seemed to think a thing of it. I've observed the same in women as well. Sometimes threads go up that desire sympathy and/or validation. Response levels can be equal from both sexes. However, male respondents that provide the feedback the OP is seeking are lauded. The same opinion could have been expressed by a woman but it's ignored or debated. The individual wants male coddling and isn't interested in feedback from other women. Most times it boils down to someone's perspective on a subject rather than gender. ~porcelaine

gungadin09 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 6:53:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I agree that there is a male bias... whether or not it is connected to...any sort of dom bias or sub bias is worth thinking about. i believe that some people have such a bias. i read something on another thread recently that suprised me. The person basically said that whenever there is a problem in a D/s relationship, it automatically means that the Dom is weak and ineffective, because He was supposed to be in charge. This point of view makes no allowances for the fact that we are all human beings who make mistakes, that EVERY relationship has problems at some point, that sometimes two people are just not a good match (however hard they try), or that the sub might just be incorrigible. No leader, however competent, can prevent EVERY problem from ocurring. Nor is any group of people ALWAYS at fault, be they man, woman, Dom, sub, whatever. pam

juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 9:19:00 PM)
quote: However, male respondents that provide the feedback the OP is seeking are lauded. The same opinion could have been expressed by a woman but it's ignored or debated. The individual wants male coddling and isn't interested in feedback from other women. Most times it boils down to someone's perspective on a subject rather than gender. It has actually gotten better for the most part than it used to be... Except the newbies that post in the master's forum... they seem to have trouble with the concept that we are allowed to post anywhere we like

leadership527 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 10:13:55 PM)
rofl pam. That was me... and I stick by it. I don't see that as a question of judging doms unfairly though. I see it is down-home, steak and potatoes, leadership wisdom. I'm fairly certain though from the way you responded here that you're not understanding the intent of "the buck stops here" properly.... or at least the way I see it. ~Jeff

gungadin09 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 10:49:17 PM)
Oh, shit. Sorry. That was classic pam, by the way. i often don't recall who posted what. pam P.S.- i'm still new to the lifestyle. i'm still in the process of learning where the buck stops.

gungadin09 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/8/2010 11:04:40 PM)
Where's Holly? We need a foot-in-mouth icon. pam

lally2 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/9/2010 2:19:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 rofl pam. That was me... and I stick by it. I don't see that as a question of judging doms unfairly though. I see it is down-home, steak and potatoes, leadership wisdom. I'm fairly certain though from the way you responded here that you're not understanding the intent of "the buck stops here" properly.... or at least the way I see it. ~Jeff thread jack [:)] - if that thread had been 'what happens within a Ds or Ms dynamic where the sub is TFTBing' that would have been the answer. instead the thread was asking what TFTB was - just saying [:D]

CreativeDominant -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/9/2010 8:01:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Julia, I think it depends on the context. I have had relationships in which I was a bottom rather than submissive, and I'm quite adamant and vocal about the difference. So, in those circumstances, someone calling me a bottom is just dandy. There are lots of people looking for bedroom-only (or primarily) dynamics, who don't focus on control outside the bedroom. Again, nothing wrong with using that label to describe yourself or someone else, and it can be done in a positive way. I'm generally not a brat in the slightest, but I enjoy physical wrestling/playfighting, and once jokingly threw legos at someone - I suppose it could be called "bratty" in a playful way. I know a lot of dominants who are actively looking for a submissive or bottom who he has to overpower, or who has that kind of playful side. The tone of your quote is the problem, not the words. I pointed out myself how I could be all of those labels I mentioned in my OP at different times. I do not see them as an insult intrinsically. What I am talking about is how these terms are used as insults and ways to denigrate people... The problem, as it so often is, is that in your very first post and in several posts afterwards, your "tone" made it seem as if it is always an issue and is only ever used in a negative way. It isn't until much later that you began to speak of how these terms are used in any manner other than a negative way and it appears from the tone of even those posts that it is the negative way in which they are most often applied. I don't do brats. I don't do SAMs. In any relationship I would be in, I see the terms applied negatively but that is because I try to choose submissives who, while playful and spirited, would not deliberately try to provoke "punishment" or engage in willful defiance simply for the "fun" of it, at least on an ongoing basis or for every encounter. I expect communication. So...if my submissive were to start behaving in this manner, I would tell that her behavior...not her, her behavior...is that of a brat or a SAM and we would sit down and discuss it. With all that said, I know of couples in which the brat or SAM part of the dynamic is an ongoing thing. Hooray for them. I use the labels then to define the dynamic...and not in a negative fashion because it is not MY dynamic. As I said in my first post, labels are often applied to try and define a person's behavior. In BDSM, as sirsholly and andalusite have noted, the terms brat or bedroom or SAM, etc. do not necessarily have to be negative though there have been threads and posts in which they have been. The terms applied to dominants in most threads to describe their behavior...controlling, domineering, abusive, asshole...are.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/9/2010 9:41:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I think you are missing the picture here... A submissive person makes an account here. They state their limits, they put forward what they are looking for, etc. Then, being new, they get a slew of emails from (perhaps even well meaning) people telling them that if they have limits, they are not true or real, they are justa bottom. Now, they want a D/s style relationship, and many people are emailing them this stuff, they start to become negated in their minds... So, that person comes over to the forum side of things, and sees a bunch of terms applied to submissive sorts that hint those who engage in certain actions are not true or real. Perhaps they want to brat role play, or maybe they want to try the sammy thing... and we have a buncha people reducing entire human beings to terms that originally were developed to describe actions, not dynamics. See what I am trying to say how this could be seen as somewhat negating to people? Now I do not think it is going to change, people being who they are, but it bugs me a little just the same Again, I agree with this 100%. I can't even begin to tell y'all how long it took for me to actually realize that I was allowed to desire the things I desire, and play the way I want to play with people, due to the humongous volume of people telling me what I was doing wrong. I pretty much spent ages 18-23 thinking that I was never, EVER going to have good sex because vanilla sex couldn't turn me on and every single person I spoke to on the internet - and every website I read up on - was telling me that if I wasn't a masochist who wanted to be obedient all the time, I wasn't submissive. I had many, many Doms tell me lots of different things that I ought to be doing "better," and I tried to change lots of things about myself, and was completely paralyzed with misery wondering what the hell was wrong with me, since I clearly wasn't submissive. CM, ironically, is where I posted my first honest profile, just being honest about my wants and needs and putting it out there in the hopes that someone would understand me. And someone did, and I found a bunch of stubborn, brilliant people to talk to here on the boards ([;)]), but it took me five years of complete confusion to get there. I think the attitude of "let it roll off your back" is the right one, and I take that stance now (as often as I can), but it's extremely unfortunate that subs who are new to this have to go through a gauntlet of stupidity before they figure out there are no "rules." I think Julia is smart to bring this issue up.

leadership527 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/9/2010 9:46:24 AM)
YAY! Just YAY for that whole post Juju. OK, yeah yeah.. it'd be nice if you hadn't needed to go through the period of finding your own voice, but honestly, the 18-23 time frame is about when that happens and I see no reason you should get a free pass from it chuckles. The rest of us had to muddle our way into adulthood also. But YAY for you realizing that you are YOU and that's a neat thing.

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