RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (Full Version)

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jujubeeMB -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/9/2010 10:01:18 AM)

Lol. Thank you. I just got a mini celebration for growing up!! I feel very special [:)]



CaringandReal -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/9/2010 5:44:43 PM)

Ok, terms I can do. Here are some words used in a derogatory sense in connection with dominants:

Chest-beating ape, caveman, trogolydyte, brute
Pompous jerk, pompous ass, cocky bastard
predator, sexual predator
horny net geek or hng for short
control freak
misogynist, male supremist
manipulator
psychopath, sociopath
creep
hypnotist?? ;)

And, if you want even more, I recommend you revist most of the early threads started by osf. I believe he got called every name in the Doms R Evil book. ;)



juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 7:05:19 AM)

quote:

The problem, as it so often is, is that in your very first post and in several posts afterwards, your "tone" made it seem as if it is always an issue and is only ever used in a negative way.  It isn't until much later that you began to speak of how these terms are used in any manner other than a negative way and it appears from the tone of even those posts that it is the negative way in which they are most often applied.


Here is what I actually said in my OP

The fact of the matter is many of these terms did not start out with the intention of being a negative label. SAM is a bottom sort person that gets off on being beaten for being a smart ass. A bedroom submissive is someone who gets off submitting during sex, a bottom is someone who is not submissive but enjoys the bottom role, a do-me is someone who likes to be done on their terms according to their fantasies. TFTB is a bottom that is instructing a top while being in the bottom role. A brat is a submissive that enjoys being naughty and maybe her dom enjoys it too


quote:

don't do brats. I don't do SAMs. In any relationship I would be in, I see the terms applied negatively but that is because I try to choose submissives who, while playful and spirited, would not deliberately try to provoke "punishment" or engage in willful defiance simply for the "fun" of it, at least on an ongoing basis or for every encounter. I expect communication. So...if my submissive were to start behaving in this manner, I would tell that her behavior...not her, her behavior...is that of a brat or a SAM and we would sit down and discuss it. With all that said, I know of couples in which the brat or SAM part of the dynamic is an ongoing thing. Hooray for them. I use the labels then to define the dynamic...and not in a negative fashion because it is not MY dynamic.


You use these labels to define dynamics, I use them to define play. I am not a SAM, but I could possibly engage in sam play. I am not a brat, but I could engage in brat play. In my opinion it brat play or sam play is not for you, fine, but why label a sam or a brat because they enjoy that play? It would be like me labeling a dominant that enjoyed role playing a rape a rapist... If I ever engaged in that sort of play it would be for fun. I do not consider people who act like assholes in their relationship to be anything else but assholes.

Now I get you want a submissive sub. But personally I do not see others as a negative thing because they aren't what I want. I don't like the entire master/slave concept. It isn't for me. But it isn't "negative" for me either.

quote:

as I said in my first post, labels are often applied to try and define a person's behavior. In BDSM, as sirsholly and andalusite have noted, the terms brat or bedroom or SAM, etc. do not necessarily have to be negative though there have been threads and posts in which they have been. The terms applied to dominants in most threads to describe their behavior...controlling, domineering, abusive, asshole...are.


Notice, words were used to label a dominant's behavior, but these were not lifestyle terms. I think that is my point, why are there labels attached to s-types that are twisted into negative labels... your post is what I am actually talking about...

I did, on several occasions try to communicate I did not really intend to make this a post that pits dominants and submissives against each other. I suppose you may have missed those clarifications.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 8:07:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The problem, as it so often is, is that in your very first post and in several posts afterwards, your "tone" made it seem as if it is always an issue and is only ever used in a negative way.  It isn't until much later that you began to speak of how these terms are used in any manner other than a negative way and it appears from the tone of even those posts that it is the negative way in which they are most often applied.


Here is what I actually said in my OP

The fact of the matter is many of these terms did not start out with the intention of being a negative label. SAM is a bottom sort person that gets off on being beaten for being a smart ass. A bedroom submissive is someone who gets off submitting during sex, a bottom is someone who is not submissive but enjoys the bottom role, a do-me is someone who likes to be done on their terms according to their fantasies. TFTB is a bottom that is instructing a top while being in the bottom role. A brat is a submissive that enjoys being naughty and maybe her dom enjoys it too
And you may have missed...on other threads as well as your own thread here...the explanations as to why they have also come to be used in a negative way.  Believe it or not, there are submissives who may choose bratty or SAM behavior rather than honest communication to try to indicate their dissatisfaction with the established dynamic.  Believe it or not, their perception of themselves as playful or spirited or feisty or independant or "strong-willed but submissive" may be perceived as brat or SAM behavior by the dominant.  There's also the matter of your own perception.  you've stated it yourself...your work may cause you to be overly sensitive to these terms.  So might being the type of submissive you see yourself as.
 
I find it somewhat ironic that there are people who feel that they can take the term submissive and twist it to mean almost anything they want it to mean despite its fairly clear definitions in the dictionary and yet are offended that terms such as SAM and bedroom sub can be used as a base and then refined to a point where their original meaning is still intact but the term itself has been amplified to apply it to not just occasional, situational behavior but to an ONGOING manner of behavior within a dynamic. 

quote:

don't do brats. I don't do SAMs. In any relationship I would be in, I see the terms applied negatively but that is because I try to choose submissives who, while playful and spirited, would not deliberately try to provoke "punishment" or engage in willful defiance simply for the "fun" of it, at least on an ongoing basis or for every encounter. I expect communication. So...if my submissive were to start behaving in this manner, I would tell that her behavior...not her, her behavior...is that of a brat or a SAM and we would sit down and discuss it. With all that said, I know of couples in which the brat or SAM part of the dynamic is an ongoing thing. Hooray for them. I use the labels then to define the dynamic...and not in a negative fashion because it is not MY dynamic.


quote:

You use these labels to define dynamics, I use them to define play. I am not a SAM, but I could possibly engage in sam play. I am not a brat, but I could engage in brat play. In my opinion it brat play or sam play is not for you, fine, but why label a sam or a brat because they enjoy that play? It would be like me labeling a dominant that enjoyed role playing a rape a rapist... If I ever engaged in that sort of play it would be for fun. I do not consider people who act like assholes in their relationship to be anything else but assholes.
Actually, it was the fact that I, and others including authors, use the terms to describe a person who engages in the behavior not as a manner of play but as a manner of behavior on an ongoing basis, either within the structure of the dynamic or outside of it...whether positive or negative, depending on OUR perception...that bothered you.  If you choose to see them as terms applied to play only, great.  As I noted...and you apparently missed...I can see them applied to play on an occasional basis also.  It is when the behavior becomes ongoing...within MY dynamic/relationship or in any dynamic/relationship where it is causing a problem...that I perceive it as negative behavior, not play.

quote:

Now I get you want a submissive sub. But personally I do not see others as a negative thing because they aren't what I want. I don't like the entire master/slave concept. It isn't for me. But it isn't "negative" for me either.
And again, you seem to be unable to see that, for me, not liking something is the same thing as it striking me as negative.  You also seem to be unable to see that I take each situation as it comes rather than being offended by the way others use it.  I believe that I've stated that quite often in previous posts along with my last post on this thread. 

As for the type of submissive I want, you'd be surprised were you to know the ones I've had.  They were submissive but "submissive subs"...as I think you are using it (but I could be wrong) would hardly define any of them.

quote:

as I said in my first post, labels are often applied to try and define a person's behavior. In BDSM, as sirsholly and andalusite have noted, the terms brat or bedroom or SAM, etc. do not necessarily have to be negative though there have been threads and posts in which they have been. The terms applied to dominants in most threads to describe their behavior...controlling, domineering, abusive, asshole...are.

Notice, words were used to label a dominant's behavior, but these were not lifestyle terms. I think that is my point, why are there labels attached to s-types that are twisted into negative labels... your post is what I am actually talking about...

I did, on several occasions try to communicate I did not really intend to make this a post that pits dominants and submissives against each other. I suppose you may have missed those clarifications.


And I believe that I, and several others, have attempted to explain that those words have not been twisted just because we use them in a different manner than you. And while you may choose to see it as negative when we use it to define behavior rather than play, there are those of us who do that.  Stating that others are wrong for doing what you perceive as wrong sounds suspiciously close to "your way is the right way".  While you've found others that agree with your perception of these terms only applying to play, you've also found those of us who disagree with you and apply them to behavior...sometimes negative and sometimes not.



angelikaJ -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 8:39:19 AM)

This is a fast response and I suspect it may catch some ire.

I see a lot of posts from self-labeled "strong willed" submissives who need a strong man to control them and then complain for any number of reasons.

My opinion is that their notions of dominance and submission come from bodice- ripper novels and they have no concept about yielding power.

Then there are bratty subs who throw tantrums and complain about their dom/mes when they get don't get their own way. Often they are complaining about being punished, and it is my guess that they really don't understand what it is that they are agreeing to in the first place.


Many of the issues on both sides of the kneel happen when the fantasy doesn't match the reality.

However, if a relationship is working between 2 people it doesn't matter if other people might think he is a "prick dom" and she is a "sam sub".

Many of the issues occur when people fail at simple communication and the subsequent failure of the relationship ... if people can't communicate it is easy to fall back on using labels.

In my case, from the beginning he knew I love to be spanked and he made it very clear that bratting would never be accepted.
As it turns out, I am not a brat.

Win-win.




juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 9:33:06 AM)

quote:

Believe it or not, there are submissives who may choose bratty or SAM behavior rather than honest communication to try to indicate their dissatisfaction with the established dynamic.  Believe it or not, their perception of themselves as playful or spirited or feisty or independant or "strong-willed but submissive" may be perceived as brat or SAM behavior by the dominant. 


I do not see being a sam or a self professed brat to be manipulative behavior... manipulative behavior is manipulative behavior

And the only person who can define a sub is the sub or their dominant. Bad behavior in a relationship is bad behavior in a relationship. Manipulation is not a submissive trait. Being an asshole is not a dominant one.

quote:

I find it somewhat ironic that there are people who feel that they can take the term submissive and twist it to mean almost anything they want it to mean despite its fairly clear definitions in the dictionary and yet are offended that terms such as SAM and bedroom sub can be used as a base and then refined to a point where their original meaning is still intact but the term itself has been amplified to apply it to not just occasional, situational behavior but to an ONGOING manner of behavior within a dynamic.


So you have to label that behavior as being something intended to describe role play. You can't say this PERSON is manipulative, has a nasty disposition, is not tractable. You have to label them something such as a brat, when brat is for many an age play term to denote acting younger and petulant. A SAM is someone who during a scene becomes verbally smart-assed as a part of pain play.

I have actually done neither of the above personally. I have no idea what your point about people calling themselves submissive when they aren't has to do with anything to do with this thread, unless you are saying that people who enjoy sam play and brat play are twue.



quote:

Actually, it was the fact that I, and others including authors, use the terms to describe a person who engages in the behavior not as a manner of play but as a manner of behavior on an ongoing basis, either within the structure of the dynamic or outside of it...whether positive or negative, depending on OUR perception...that bothered you. If you choose to see them as terms applied to play only, great. As I noted...and you apparently missed...I can see them applied to play on an occasional basis also. It is when the behavior becomes ongoing...within MY dynamic/relationship or in any dynamic/relationship where it is causing a problem...that I perceive it as negative behavior, not play.


If a vanilla girlfriend acted in a manipulative confrontational way, would you call her a sam or a brat? Or would you call her something else?


quote:

And again, you seem to be unable to see that, for me, not liking something is the same thing as it striking me as negative.


But you said this...
quote:

In any relationship I would be in, I see the terms applied negatively but that is because I try to choose submissives who, while playful and spirited, would not deliberately try to provoke "punishment" or engage in willful defiance simply for the "fun" of it, at least on an ongoing basis or for every encounter.



quote:

In any relationship I would be in, I see the terms applied negatively but that is because I try to choose submissives who, while playful and spirited, would not deliberately try to provoke "punishment" or engage in willful defiance simply for the "fun" of it, at least on an ongoing basis or for every encounter.


I said it was a bugaboo, I said I was pissing in the wind by bringing it up. I also said I knew this thread wasn't going to change anything. I never said you had to do things my way. If you think I am trying to bully you into adopting my terms, you are wrong...

I will say this, I am not the only submissive who posted on this thread that has received the "you are not real and true" emails. Nor am I the only one that has had the specter of being labeled a sam or a brat or tftb thrown at me (from a former dominant that used those terms to manipulate me). My opinion is just that, an opinion.... I never said anyone else had to share it

I burned my wrist really bad this morning so I may not be posting much today, so if I do not answer any replies, that is why... it isn't because of you...



CreativeDominant -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 3:08:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Believe it or not, there are submissives who may choose bratty or SAM behavior rather than honest communication to try to indicate their dissatisfaction with the established dynamic.  Believe it or not, their perception of themselves as playful or spirited or feisty or independant or "strong-willed but submissive" may be perceived as brat or SAM behavior by the dominant. 


I do not see being a sam or a self professed brat to be manipulative behavior... manipulative behavior is manipulative behavior
Yes...manipulative behavior is manipulative behavior.  And when someone is behaving in what can be called...in simple terms...brat-like or SAM-like fashion, when it is uncharacteristic for them to behave in that manner in an ongoing way, to achieve a certain goal rather than communicate, it is manipulative.  As a matter of fact, even in role-play, if you use SAM or brat mannerisms to get what you want rather than coming right out and stating what you want, it is a form of manipulation.  One accepted and recognized by both parties and enjoyed by both (I would hope) but manipulation.

quote:

And the only person who can define a sub is the sub or their dominant. Bad behavior in a relationship is bad behavior in a relationship. Manipulation is not a submissive trait. Being an asshole is not a dominant one.
Nor did I say they were.  Where you and I differ is in the belief that a submissive can use SAM-like or brat behavior to at least try to get the dominant to do what the submissive wants. 
Neither do I believe that others cannot be judged by others.  It is done all the time.  A submissive and her dominant can have a dynamic in which she is a brat and he is the stern father figure and it makes no never-mind to me.  As a matter of fact, that would be an occasion where I would see it positively because that dynamic suits the two of them.  Would she be mine?  No, because in my dynamic...as an ongoing behavior...I see it in a negative fashion.

quote:

I find it somewhat ironic that there are people who feel that they can take the term submissive and twist it to mean almost anything they want it to mean despite its fairly clear definitions in the dictionary and yet are offended that terms such as SAM and bedroom sub can be used as a base and then refined to a point where their original meaning is still intact but the term itself has been amplified to apply it to not just occasional, situational behavior but to an ONGOING manner of behavior within a dynamic.


So you have to label that behavior as being something intended to describe role play..  You keep saying that I use a term that was defined to describe roleplay and use it to describe behavior.  I am not the only one who does so.  Devon and Miller and Wiseman all use the terms not only to describe roleplay but BEHAVIOR within a dynamic.  And I use the terms negatively to describe behavior within MY dynamic or in others in which it is a problem.  I don't know how many times I can say that I do not use the terms negatively to describe those dynamics in which it works for the couple.

quote:

 You can't say this PERSON is manipulative, has a nasty disposition, is not tractable. You have to label them something such as a brat, when brat is for many an age play term to denote acting younger and petulant. A SAM is someone who during a scene becomes verbally smart-assed as a part of pain play.
Oh I can, and have, said all those things to describe people.  I've also used the terms brat and SAM, IN THE MANNER I've described. 

You yourself say it, julia...for MANY, it is used to denote roleplay.  For many...not for all.  For some of us...in specific situations...we use them in a negative fashion.  In other situations, we use them in a positive fashion.

quote:

Actually, it was the fact that I, and others including authors, use the terms to describe a person who engages in the behavior not as a manner of play but as a manner of behavior on an ongoing basis, either within the structure of the dynamic or outside of it...whether positive or negative, depending on OUR perception...that bothered you. If you choose to see them as terms applied to play only, great. As I noted...and you apparently missed...I can see them applied to play on an occasional basis also. It is when the behavior becomes ongoing...within MY dynamic/relationship or in any dynamic/relationship where it is causing a problem...that I perceive it as negative behavior, not play.


If a vanilla girlfriend acted in a manipulative confrontational way, would you call her a sam or a brat? Or would you call her something else?
quote:

I HAVE called a vanilla girlfriend a brat.  She was acting like one and it was uncharacteristic for her.  But she thought the behavior would get her what she wanted.  It didn't.  As for the term SAM, I consider it to be more lifestyle than brat so it would not fit.



quote:

And again, you seem to be unable to see that, for me, not liking something is the same thing as it striking me as negative.


But you said this...
quote:

In any relationship I would be in, I see the terms applied negatively but that is because I try to choose submissives who, while playful and spirited, would not deliberately try to provoke "punishment" or engage in willful defiance simply for the "fun" of it, at least on an ongoing basis or for every encounter.
  I also said in my last posts and in this post that for some situations, I can apply it in a positive fashion.  Dynamics outside of my own relationship in which it works wonders for the couple as an example.  As a type of play within a scene that ceases when the scene is done as another example.  Did you miss me stating that/

quote:

I said it was a bugaboo, I said I was pissing in the wind by bringing it up. I also said I knew this thread wasn't going to change anything. I never said you had to do things my way. If you think I am trying to bully you into adopting my terms, you are wrong...

I will say this, I am not the only submissive who posted on this thread that has received the "you are not real and true" emails. Nor am I the only one that has had the specter of being labeled a sam or a brat or tftb thrown at me (from a former dominant that used those terms to manipulate me). My opinion is just that, an opinion.... I never said anyone else had to share it

I burned my wrist really bad this morning so I may not be posting much today, so if I do not answer any replies, that is why... it isn't because of you...
And I don't share it...nor do you share mine.  The difference is that I am not saying you are wrong or that those who believe as you do are wrong EXCEPT in your perception that those of us who use it differently than you have taken what is a positive term and twisted it.  The labels brat, SAM, do-me sub/dom, bedroom dom/sub only become negative within the context they are used by the person using the context and spelling it out.



juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 3:22:31 PM)

quote:

As a matter of fact, even in role-play, if you use SAM or brat mannerisms to get what you want rather than coming right out and stating what you want, it is a form of manipulation.  One accepted and recognized by both parties and enjoyed by both (I would hope) but manipulation.


Oh really? How funny... I 100 percent do not agree with that... I had a dom email me today that he wanted this rules dynamic so that if I mess up he can spank me for it. HE wanted this sort of relationship because he got off on it, so who is manipulating who here? It isn't what I would want, but this guy wanted to nitpick a sub that he can beat every time "she fucks up"... I see this as a mutually agreed upon kink, there is no manipulation there whatsoever. In fact he didn't care whether I liked it or not, just that I would be willing to go along with it. I hope he gets a sam and not an obedient sort he will set up to fail.


quote:

I HAVE called a vanilla girlfriend a brat. She was acting like one and it was uncharacteristic for her. But she thought the behavior would get her what she wanted. It didn't. As for the term SAM, I consider it to be more lifestyle than brat so it would not fit.


What if a dom acts out to get what he wants, manipulates to get what he wants? I had to ask that dom that emailed me specific questions to get at what he was into, another submissive might not be experienced enough to catch on until she was involved that this guy was looking for excuses to spank her because it is his kink. He was not forthcoming about it and I had to dig.


as for the rest, I am perfectly content to agree to disagree...



sirsholly -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 4:07:08 PM)

quote:

Yes...manipulative behavior is manipulative behavior. And when someone is behaving in what can be called...in simple terms...brat-like or SAM-like fashion, when it is uncharacteristic for them to behave in that manner in an ongoing way, to achieve a certain goal rather than communicate, it is manipulative. As a matter of fact, even in role-play, if you use SAM or brat mannerisms to get what you want rather than coming right out and stating what you want, it is a form of manipulation. One accepted and recognized by both parties and enjoyed by both (I would hope) but manipulation.
Good posts CD...and I totally agree with this. I can, and have, manipulated a Dom into doing what i wanted just by knowing what buttons to push.





Fluke -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/10/2010 6:58:55 PM)

Well.. I labeled myself, as all can see, and while I have seen that many or even most other people have a wildly different opinion of it than I do, I just don't care..!

Or, I do care, in the way that I feel kind of hurt that people don't think I'm worth any of their time on account of my label alone, and I find it hard to understand people that know me as something else than what THEY associate with the label saying that because of it I'm "no good".

In another thread, way back, I once commented on this attitude by saying "ignorance is bliss", and boy did I get torn a new one.... [:D]

Anyway, I just wanted to add my sentiment.....



CreativeDominant -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/11/2010 8:10:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

As a matter of fact, even in role-play, if you use SAM or brat mannerisms to get what you want rather than coming right out and stating what you want, it is a form of manipulation.  One accepted and recognized by both parties and enjoyed by both (I would hope) but manipulation.


Oh really? How funny... I 100 percent do not agree with that... I had a dom email me today that he wanted this rules dynamic so that if I mess up he can spank me for it. HE wanted this sort of relationship because he got off on it, so who is manipulating who here? It isn't what I would want, but this guy wanted to nitpick a sub that he can beat every time "she fucks up"... I see this as a mutually agreed upon kink, there is no manipulation there whatsoever. In fact he didn't care whether I liked it or not, just that I would be willing to go along with it. I hope he gets a sam and not an obedient sort he will set up to fail.
Why am I not surprised that you don't agree?  Just to clear things up...manipulation is defined by Merriam-Webster in the following way:
1 : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully   b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose :

If you will read definition 1 and 2 a, as well as the use of the word "artful" in 2b, you will note that manipulation does not necessarily refer ONLY to the use of underhanded or "unknown/unsuspected by one" means of getting what you want.  Unless there is a dynamic in which one says "I've been bad" (honestly) and the other responds by spanking then, if it is going to be interesting and alive at all, there is going to be manipulation involved in both parties getting what they want...either the dominant setting her up to "fail" so he can punish her or her doing something "naughty" so she can be punished or both.

quote:

I HAVE called a vanilla girlfriend a brat. She was acting like one and it was uncharacteristic for her. But she thought the behavior would get her what she wanted. It didn't. As for the term SAM, I consider it to be more lifestyle than brat so it would not fit.


quote:

What if a dom acts out to get what he wants, manipulates to get what he wants? I had to ask that dom that emailed me specific questions to get at what he was into, another submissive might not be experienced enough to catch on until she was involved that this guy was looking for excuses to spank her because it is his kink. He was not forthcoming about it and I had to dig.
  Then he could be, in my mind, a form of brat...a dishonest dominant brat if he is not forthcoming about what he wants.  Or he just could be someone who is not all that good at explaining himself and his kink or insecure about how he appears to others for wanting his dynamic fashioned in that manner.

quote:

as for the rest, I am perfectly content to agree to disagree...
As am I...



Twoshoes -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/11/2010 3:17:09 PM)

Is there also a seperate term fo the sub that likes to put up an actual fight during play? I think this goes abit beyond being a smart ass.

I've read profiles/descriptions from subs wanting to be overpowered either physically or mentally after putting up resistance. The physical one should be obvious, it's abit like rough sex. (Not only females - the man I'm thinking of definately had to be shackled for his top to manage to overpower him). The mental one, I have a read a few accounts of subs wanting to go through emotions of anger and frustration, eventually replaced with defeat, acceptance and submission. Seems abit far from the willingness to please department.



juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/11/2010 3:41:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

Is there also a seperate term fo the sub that likes to put up an actual fight during play? I think this goes abit beyond being a smart ass.

I've read profiles/descriptions from subs wanting to be overpowered either physically or mentally after putting up resistance. The physical one should be obvious, it's abit like rough sex. (Not only females - the man I'm thinking of definately had to be shackled for his top to manage to overpower him). The mental one, I have a read a few accounts of subs wanting to go through emotions of anger and frustration, eventually replaced with defeat, acceptance and submission. Seems abit far from the willingness to please department.


What if both are into that sort of play? I had a man I was talking to who was really into having the sub fight. Hey, it isn't my thing, but if they get off on that role play and she is pleasing him, of course it is still D/s.

My way of looking at it is it isn't actions or roles that define the dynamic, it is the people involved in it.



SBJames1 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/14/2010 8:43:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious


Human nature.



juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/14/2010 8:52:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SBJames1


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious


Human nature.


I would agree that it is human nature, my next question is, should human beings try to transcend their nature?



SBJames1 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/14/2010 10:05:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious


Ok, sorry for the abreviated answer above.

When we engage in name calling - and everyone does it at one time or another, to one degree or another - I think it's for several reasons. For one, if we have been hurt emotionally in some way, it's an ineffective and unhealthy attempt at regaining our self esteem and self respect.

For example if we have been embarrassed, abandoned, disappointed, frustrated, disprespected, deceived, unappreciated, etc., and if we can't regain our self-esteem in a healthy and constructive manner, we lash out in an attempt to gain a hollow victory by trying to hurt the other party more severely than we have been hurt. Of course, it is no victory at all. It is merely an attempt to punish, or achieve vengeance.

I think that in part it's a survival mechanism. If one is physically attacked, one probably should hit back in order to survive. At one time or another we all have the same instinct in situations that threaten us emotionally. When we take an emotional hit we lash out in a misguided attempt to survive emotionally. It's usually pretty ineffective; it generally has the effect of exacerbating the situation. One person lashes out, the other responds in kind, and voila - a self perpetuating cycle.

As humans, we also have a petty need to be right. We are driven to be in the right to the point at which we will attempt to make another person 'wrong' just so we can feel righteous. We're just trying to avoid being the 'wrongest' person in the room. (that oughtta rankle the grammar hounds). If we feel someone has made us look incompetent, we try to make them look even more incompetent in order to avoid being the most incompetent person in the situation. This is all about status. When our status is threatened, we will do anything to regain it.

Another aspect is that in our culture, with its long history of being a patriarchal society, women have been considered by men in positions of power to be weaker, and too many men have considered thenselves stronger, and generally superior in just about every way. (Yes, I know how sad that is. I'm a strength coach for a women's basketball team and many of these women could beat the stuffing out of me while maintaining a higher GPA)

That created a dynamic in which by accusing a man of having feminine traits, was to accuse him of being weak and inferior. In our BDSM culture, the same dynamic exsists, with Dom/mes and tops parallelling the male role, and subs / bottoms parellelling the female roles in the culture at large. So in our community, to call someone a sub or bottom in a particular manner is to subjugate them in the same way women have been subjugated in the community as a whole. It is a form of chauvinism.

Even in the most neutral of contexts I try to avoid over-reliance on the titles we've created for ourselves. We are not static objects; we are dynamic. The roles we play are fluid, constantly changing and evolving. The Dom/mes and tops have as much power as the subs and bottoms give them and for only so long as the subs and bottoms allow them to have it., and the subs and bottoms have only the power the Dom/es and tops allow them to. In healthy relationships, no one holds any more power than anyone else.

The problem is not in the titles, it is in how we use them. When we use them to try to better understand a person, we are acting in a constructive manner and good things will happen. The titles will help us become better connected and the relationship will be mutually more enriching and rewarding.

When we use them to try to hurt someone, that is when titles are a liability.



SBJames1 -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/14/2010 10:10:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: SBJames1


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious


Human nature.


I would agree that it is human nature, my next question is, should human beings try to transcend their nature?


I believe we should try. But I know that reason will never overcome human nature. In spite of all our learning and spiritual development, we are no closer to overcoming our base nature than we ever have been.



juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/14/2010 10:44:19 PM)

quote:

Even in the most neutral of contexts I try to avoid over-reliance on the titles we've created for ourselves. We are not static objects; we are dynamic. The roles we play are fluid, constantly changing and evolving.


Amen to that, I heartedly agree with you.... I think people get into trouble when they attempt to fit themselves into a stereotype instead of being their true authentic self. I also believe that if we expect our roles to be static in the confines of any relationship it is a recipe for failure...


quote:

In healthy relationships, no one holds any more power than anyone else.


For me, I would agree, I do not want a relationship in which he innately is more powerful than me, more I want to exchange power with him


quote:

The problem is not in the titles, it is in how we use them. When we use them to try to better understand a person, we are acting in a constructive manner and good things will happen. The titles will help us become better connected and the relationship will be mutually more enriching and rewarding.


Labels can help foster a quicker understanding, but with all shortcuts, sometimes we have to backtrack to make sure we picked up everything we were supposed to on a journey...

I would only add that i believe labels are not always attached because people are cruel or want to be superior, but also because we are mentally lazy. We naturally put things into categories and boxes because it is mentally convenient



CometSiph -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/17/2010 6:29:56 AM)

about name called, basic flaming.  isn't that what grade schoolers do?  aren't we supposed to be adults? isn't this lifestyle style to be more accepting not condemning like the vanillas?

also, i noticed from experience and observations.  it is the male who gets called names and flamed, especially the male submissive.  like unsub like, etc.  it is like the male submissive should not have any wants, needs or desires (excuse me, the male submissive is human too; i guess the perfect male submissive if he wants to have no needs, no wants or no desires is to get a labotomy and be a mindless human robot so the Dominant can just have their way with them, i don't think so).

several interests get a bad label for the male submissive, if he wants to be facesat/smothered, if he wants to be a toilet slave, if he just even mentions anything that does not involve pain or forms of bondage, just interests that express oral, using his face or fingers. that does not mean, that the male submissive does not care about other interests, it does mean that the male submissive with those interests will submit to the Mistress completely to see all of her needs, wants and desires are met.

on the male dominant side,  male dominants, i imagine get named called too but not as much as the male submissive. 

i imagine all get flamed or name called which is bullshit, but it seems that males get flamed/name called a lot more than females especially the male submissive.

i want to be submissive but when my sincerity gets questioned, and i get flamed or name called, it pisses me off; so i sometimes think it is best to Cap myself; to distinguish myself as a person who will not stand for any form of bullshit.  if you like me, all is well, if you don't then go to hell.  plain and simple.  don't like me, ignore me, flame me, i flame back. respect me, i respect back.. it is a two way street.  i give respect, respect is a common decency, it does not have to be earned which some people think, and those people who think respect is earned, what did they do to earn that respect, by being lucky to play in the first place, if having played in the past and being active is what it takes for respect, there was a time when i was very active, and i knew elite players, so i should have respect.  imho, all deserve respect. 

those doing the name calling, are manipulators and trying to use guilt trips to make the male submissive into a doormat; something they might want to manage, a doormat is mindless as we know.

i was told by some submissive female friends, that a submissive can have a dominant personality, it is a choice to submit.

also it has been stated that male submissives have a bad reputation; so a lot of potential good male submissives get put in the box with the wannabe male submissive category which is wrong; so why do male submissives even bother trying?

this has been going on for a very long time.  Most the time, well, i can say this only from the male submissive angle, that a lot of Mistresses do the name calling, not i said a lot, NOT ALL.  note i am leery about that statement, because i am sure there were some ready to flame me for it.

lets see if there are legit replies to my reply to this post without anyone calling me names or flaming me.

fed up

ps, what is it with the vanilla ranking, the paddles ranking, etc...how does one get the posting rankings, i don't think it is done by self, i was looking for something to give myself a rating other than vanilla, i doubt anyone will answer that, that is a dare, i dare anyone to tell me what is required to upgrade one's posting rating.  i doubt anyone will be up to it, they know but won't say a thing, also apathy rules, so they might think, i won't bother.  hmmm[:@]



juliaoceania -> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs (8/17/2010 8:10:53 AM)

quote:

ps, what is it with the vanilla ranking, the paddles ranking, etc.


If you go to the sticky section there is an explanation of forum rankings


As for the rest of your post, I think you are right... I think male submissives often get a bad rap. I also think you will have more luck finding someone who will see how sincere you are in the real world, because I think sincerity means a lot to dominants.

Unfortunately male submissives have the hardest time finding a domme because dommes are not as common as male dominants... which makes it hard for those seeking a domme to find one. The numbers are against you, and because of this dommes can afford to reject far more men than most women would



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