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Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 12:12:37 PM

MissAsylum

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i had a chat with a friend of mine who is attending FetishCon. She said that she got into an arguement with a man there who believes that because you like being tied up, it dosen't exactly mean you are submissive. since she isnt a member of this site, i wont post her opinion, but i find myself agreeing with the mentioned man. Speaking of personal expierence, I tie my boyfriend on a regular basis, but he is an alpha male and there is no way to dispute it. i just don't believe it matters what side of the kneel you are on if you enjoy bondage. what's your opinion?

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 12:16:43 PM

stef

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I agree with the mystery man and you. Bottoming is not submitting.

~stef

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 12:18:04 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
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activities (bondage, sadism, masochism, etc) do not make a Dominant or submissive...look at all the "kinky nilla" people who do the activities "we" do but are not Dominant or submissive...they just enjoy the sensations...not to mention that you can have a sadistic slave and a masochistic Master and so forth and so on.

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 12:24:38 PM

MissAsylum

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i've expirenced bondage before and i really didnt feel as though i was giving up my dominance- its just a different feeling...one i appreciate when i am deprived of sex for a month.

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 2:47:40 PM

AAkasha

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What if a man is claustrophobic and the thing he hates more than ANYTHING is not being able to move. But he agrees, since it makes the lady wet to see him helpless.

Is that submission, or is that bottoming?

Akasha

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 2:49:50 PM

LadyHibiscus

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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I am a bondage bottom. I do it for the physical challenge, and because it's fun and relaxing.

Anyone want to say I'm submissive? Anyone? Bueller....?

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:02:05 PM

pains

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Im inclined to agree with the other posts, I think there are many assumptions made about certain activities being associated to either being Dominant or submissive which are not necessarily right, for example masochists do not have to be submissive and flip side of the coin not all subs are masochists.

Its what works for the people involved regardless of whether they be top, bottom etc etc.

tori

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:19:42 PM

reynardfox

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It is not the act that is dominant or submissive, it is the intention to be dominant or submissive. I may have subgirl lick my ass for an hour then make her a cup of tea, does that make me submissive? I think not. Besides, to be honest, who amongst us really gives a shit what anyone outside of our personal groove thinks?

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:21:25 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
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TO ME, bottoming is not submitting. Others see it differently.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 9

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:30:44 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

TO ME, bottoming is not submitting. Others see it differently.

That's a little silly. Bottoming can be submission. It depends on the two people involved.

If people want to get TOTALLY literal with the definitions, I would argue that "submitting" isn't "submission" if the sub in question is self identified as as a sub. Why are they submitting? For their OWN pleasure. To that end, most of them define their OWN view of what submission is anyway.

When I dominate a totally non kinky vanilla guy, if he is enduring pain, humiliation or bondage because I told him to, that's about as blatant "submission" as you can get, vs. a submissive who actively seeks out dominant partners to do x,y and z to him and then calling it "submitting."

Akasha

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Post #: 10

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:47:05 PM

MissAsylum

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well the people are in this personal groove...so...yeah.

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:48:53 PM

MissAsylum

Posts: 1863
Joined: 1/9/2009
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well since he hates the whole being tied up shtick- i would call the submission.

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I hate when I'm wearing my apple bottom jeans, but i can't find my boots with the fur.

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Post #: 12

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 3:57:24 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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Bottoming does not equal submission. It just means that a person happens to be receiving an activity.

quote:

If people want to get TOTALLY literal with the definitions, I would argue that "submitting" isn't "submission" if the sub in question is self identified as as a sub. Why are they submitting? For their OWN pleasure. To that end, most of them define their OWN view of what submission is anyway.

Not necessarily. I don't think there are many Dominants out there who are going to say that submission means that someone is necessarily going to like any given activity. I can promise you that there are certain types of play that I engage with between clip and I that don't bring him any pleasure at all, with the exception that it is making Me happy. For example, he HATES that freaking ugly stick. However, I love his reactions while hating it. Literally, he is submitting to it because it's what I want and at that particular time, the only thing in it for him is the fact that I'm doing what I want to do.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Post #: 13

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 4:32:19 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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for me it's submitting. I know others think differently.

I'm one who believes that if you're surrendering, which is what you do when another ties you up...you can't move, you can't get loose (unless that's you're little game), you have no say over anything that is done to you once you're bound.

Just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I'm not submitting or surrendering. It just means I also happen to enjoy that aspect as an aside.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 14

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/8/2010 4:58:56 PM

hardbodysub

Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Bottoming does not equal submission. It just means that a person happens to be receiving an activity.

quote:

If people want to get TOTALLY literal with the definitions, I would argue that "submitting" isn't "submission" if the sub in question is self identified as as a sub. Why are they submitting? For their OWN pleasure. To that end, most of them define their OWN view of what submission is anyway.

Not necessarily. I don't think there are many Dominants out there who are going to say that submission means that someone is necessarily going to like any given activity. I can promise you that there are certain types of play that I engage with between clip and I that don't bring him any pleasure at all, with the exception that it is making Me happy. For example, he HATES that freaking ugly stick. However, I love his reactions while hating it. Literally, he is submitting to it because it's what I want and at that particular time, the only thing in it for him is the fact that I'm doing what I want to do.

And the retort to this is:
Even if the only thing in it for him is that you're doing what you want, that gives him pleasure, so, ultimately, he's still doing it for himself.

We could go in circles forever over this if you want to. No matter what people say, it still comes down to semantics.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 15

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/9/2010 2:04:15 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

i had a chat with a friend of mine who is attending FetishCon. She said that she got into an arguement with a man there who believes that because you like being tied up, it dosen't exactly mean you are submissive. since she isnt a member of this site, i wont post her opinion, but i find myself agreeing with the mentioned man. Speaking of personal expierence, I tie my boyfriend on a regular basis, but he is an alpha male and there is no way to dispute it. i just don't believe it matters what side of the kneel you are on if you enjoy bondage. what's your opinion?

Bondage is a physical act of control.

Obviously it's mostly submissives who want to and agree to be bound but the simple fact is that anyone bound or shackled etc is being controlled by another.

Focus.

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RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/9/2010 9:02:48 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
That's a little silly. Bottoming can be submission. It depends on the two people involved.

Given my own personal biases, my viewpoint is actually pretty understandable. I'm not sure this is a right/wrong situation here. I suspect we're both right and it largely depends on how you define submission.

For homework though, you've challenged me to go and review my own feelings when Carol and I have sex and she sexually gives herself to me... bottoming. I'll have to sort out how I actually feel about that now as well as how I think I MIGHT feel about it if it happened outside the context of our M/s relationship.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 17

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/9/2010 9:22:58 AM

AAkasha

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
That's a little silly. Bottoming can be submission. It depends on the two people involved.

Given my own personal biases, my viewpoint is actually pretty understandable. I'm not sure this is a right/wrong situation here. I suspect we're both right and it largely depends on how you define submission.

For homework though, you've challenged me to go and review my own feelings when Carol and I have sex and she sexually gives herself to me... bottoming. I'll have to sort out how I actually feel about that now as well as how I think I MIGHT feel about it if it happened outside the context of our M/s relationship.

If you have never dominated a *vanilla* person who submits *only* for one person (you) because of your emotional connection and intimacy, you probably are not aware of how different it can be. A person enduring pain out of sheer devotion is different than a masochist bending over for a spanking. Both are bottoming. One involves a totally selfless act.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 18

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/9/2010 9:42:54 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
If you have never dominated a *vanilla* person who submits *only* for one person (you) because of your emotional connection and intimacy, you probably are not aware of how different it can be. A person enduring pain out of sheer devotion is different than a masochist bending over for a spanking. Both are bottoming. One involves a totally selfless act.

Actually, this kind of describes Carol.. the girl who is my slave without ever having wanted to be a slave. And I am floored regularly by that fact so I think I get that. I completely understand how the offering up of one's own pain can be a selfless act of giving and very powerful. I'm just not connecting "selfless act of giving" with "submission". I'd very much like to believe that as Carol's master I also do "selfless acts of giving".

Maybe put differently, I fully understand a lot of very good things that can happen through the shared intimacy and vulnerability of SM play. Done in a healthy way, I see it as an entirely good thing from a relationship standpoint. I'm just not sure the particular "goodness" bucket I want to put it in is "submission". That's why I wanted to review my own internal reactions when Carol sexually submits to me. I'm hoping I can catch a reflection of where she's at in her head by looking at my own reactions.

At an absolute bare minimum though, even if I do end up seeing it as a kind of submission I care about, it's absolutely true that it can never really be compared to slavery. That'd be like saying, "I ran a 100m sprint so I know what it's like to run a marathon." Sure they are both running, but..... So I think the most I could get to would be two very, very different expressions of submission. Since what I personally happen to be most fascinated in is slavery... well... that kind of means that even if I decide "yeah, it's submission" I'm still going to see it as a rather limited and uninteresting version (given the things *I* care about).

It's worth noting that this is just my own musings on how I want to classify things inside my own head. These last few posts of mine certainly are not intended to, in any way whatsoever, express anyone else's reality. If someone else feels submissive when they get tied up, then I fully believe they feel submissive... period. That "submissiveness" may or may not be anything I care about, but I would never argue it's existence or relevance to the person experiencing it. This entire thread, I'm assuming, was because the OP wanted to see how other people categorized things so I'm answering. But there is a world of difference between MY categorizations and ANYONE ELSE'S reality.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 19

RE: Bondage: An Act Of Submission? - 8/9/2010 10:12:22 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
And the retort to this is:
Even if the only thing in it for him is that you're doing what you want, that gives him pleasure, so, ultimately, he's still doing it for himself.

We could go in circles forever over this if you want to. No matter what people say, it still comes down to semantics.

I'll agree with you there. Very much like the debate on "there is no such thing as a selfless good deed".

I think what happens during debates on semantics such as this, is folks don't necessarily want to feel diminished in some way because an activity is just bottoming or only topping. There's some underlying current of thought that it somehow has to be equated 'as good' to match up to submission or Dominance.

My question on this is...... Why? What is the real issue that goes on in the minds of those who enjoy topping or bottoming that it isn't 'good enough'? Why are they feeling 'less than'?

If My dynamic ended tomorrow, I'd still be a top and I'd have a damn good time doing it. When I go to a play party and engage is a scene with someone, I don't call it Dominance because that's not what it is. Simply put, I don't have to try to beef up the experience by calling it something that it's not. I'm happy with what it is and more than likely I'll want to do it again. Frankly, I just don't care what other people's opinions are on it if they don't think it's 'good enough'. That might just be advice that some folks should take to heart.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to hardbodysub)

Post #: 20

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