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Public pensions - 8/9/2010 10:01:06 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I really like William Jacobson.

Here he links a couple articles dealing with Pau Krugman and the NY Times assertion: "There’s a class war coming to the world of government pensions. "
One example: "In the last decade, half of the police and firefighters who retired in Yonkers [NY]collected pensions that exceeded their base pay, in (at least one case) by as much as 75%."

I'm up for some union-busting, public-sector and otherwise.

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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 10:12:04 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I really like William Jacobson.

Here he links a couple articles dealing with Pau Krugman and the NY Times assertion: "There’s a class war coming to the world of government pensions. "
One example: "In the last decade, half of the police and firefighters who retired in Yonkers [NY]collected pensions that exceeded their base pay, in (at least one case) by as much as 75%."

I'm up for some union-busting, public-sector and otherwise.




There obviously need to be reforms to public pensions in particular. Basing retirement benefits on the last year of pay, which can be padded with overtime, is an asinine practice for example.

However, barring anomalies like that, you have to discuss pensions in the context of what they are...deferred compensation. The entire pay and benefits package needs to be looked at relative to the value of the job, not just outrage over full benefits at 30 years etc. The private sector (even in multiemployer plans) obviously has done a better job at that, since politicians increase pay and benefits when times are good, but god forbid you should try and reduce them when times arent so good.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 10:12:46 AM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I really like William Jacobson.

Here he links a couple articles dealing with Pau Krugman and the NY Times assertion: "There’s a class war coming to the world of government pensions. "
One example: "In the last decade, half of the police and firefighters who retired in Yonkers [NY]collected pensions that exceeded their base pay, in (at least one case) by as much as 75%."

I'm up for some union-busting, public-sector and otherwise.




truckin started a thread!

I think many unions need to be revamped/cleaned up/ and changed from the bottom to the top,and than go back to doing what they were initially created for: {enforcing fair labor practices, etc.}.

The following link is from Rutgers University about the history of labor unions, I wanted something unbiased.

http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/labor/labor-bib.html

truckin? do you think workers should go back to the working conditions that existed before unions?

I don't agree with many "union practices" but if unions were/are abolished, what organization is going to protect workers?


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/9/2010 10:19:39 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 10:19:24 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I really like William Jacobson.

Here he links a couple articles dealing with Pau Krugman and the NY Times assertion: "There’s a class war coming to the world of government pensions. "
One example: "In the last decade, half of the police and firefighters who retired in Yonkers [NY]collected pensions that exceeded their base pay, in (at least one case) by as much as 75%."

I'm up for some union-busting, public-sector and otherwise.




truckin started a thread!

I think many unions need to clean up their acts, and go back to doing what they were initially created for: {enforcing fair labor practices, etc.}.

truckin? do you think workers should go back to the working conditions that existed before unions?

I don't agree with many "union practices" but if unions were/are abolished, what organization is going to protect workers?



Demonizing unions in general (Im not saying either of you are, but it is common to do so) is no better than demonizing "fat cats on Wall Street". There are unions that understand that if their employers fail, they dont have jobs. They work with their employers on realstic wage, benefits and work conditions.

Then there are unions where the corruption, nepotism and skimming of dues makes politicians look like angels.

Sometimes the good and especially the bad is industry based (Teamsters, SEIU) and sometimes it is local by local (Hotels, Electrical workers, Retail Food)

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 8/9/2010 10:20:11 AM >

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 10:47:37 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		For those that wish to modify someone else's pension, in a public forum (i.e. a public servant), I think it is not unreasonable, to ask for the arguer's financial statements. Since, a person's retirement is pretty personal, and time spent trying to maximize every penny. Yes, some pensions have wacky rules that really should be revised. For the most part, most pensions are not abusive, otherwise, MANY public servants, would be retiring with outragous pension deals. This is not happening. So, if you feel a public servant's pension is grossly out of proportion, then one should expect you, to supply your entire financial status. I find, most people back down, wishing no one makes their financial statements a matter of public record. There are many people at the local, state, and federal level, that have to put up with absolute garbage from the public. If a member of goverment, is doing something abusive (i.e. abusing the rules for pensions in this case), then we, the public need to hold them fully accountable.

But, this should NOT become a witch hunt.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 11:14:41 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		When the public ( taxpayers ) are footing the bill for public sector pensions, they have every right to know how much it is costing them. The salary of public employees is not private nor the pension and health care benifits they will be recieving for life.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 11:16:26 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Are you going to go after military pensions next?

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 11:18:10 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I am sure that military pensions are also public record. I'm not giong after anyone.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 11:31:13 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

One example: "In the last decade, half of the police and firefighters who retired in Yonkers [NY]collected pensions that exceeded their base pay, in (at least one case) by as much as 75%."


AND that's because of excessive overtime.

Are you up for hiring more workers?

Or for going without as much police and fire protection?

Or perhaps with hiring lower skilled workers at lower rates.

Those are your options. Welcome to reality.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 11:32:14 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		IMO-

pensions should be paid- as that is retirement.

however- some of the numbers are eye popping.   For the high amounts- then I do not see the urgency to pay beyond a certain threshold.

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 6:00:31 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

One example: "In the last decade, half of the police and firefighters who retired in Yonkers [NY]collected pensions that exceeded their base pay, in (at least one case) by as much as 75%."


AND that's because of excessive overtime.

Are you up for hiring more workers?

Or for going without as much police and fire protection?

Or perhaps with hiring lower skilled workers at lower rates.

Those are your options. Welcome to reality.


The problem MM is that the overtime is steered toward those who are about to retire to pad their pensions, rather than being distributed more evenly, or even favoring those younger and more able to perform at their peak despite the extra hours.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 6:12:41 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting.  The cons want to limit public worker boondoggles, and the libs want to limit exec boondoggles.  The economy is in trouble, so I'm willing to listen to anything on the table.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/9/2010 9:00:10 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		some sanity has to be brought into public pensions. The well is dry..

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:03:25 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		They simply negotiated a contract. You are going to penalize them for maximizing what they could negotiate? Isn't that going against everything about "Capitalism" that you have ever spouted out about on here? hypocrite

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RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:07:57 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

They simply negotiated a contract. You are going to penalize them for maximizing what they could negotiate? Isn't that going against everything about "Capitalism" that you have ever spouted out about on here? hypocrite


In a right to work state you'd have a point. But it is no longer "capitalism" (in the pure sense I believe you were using it) when unions represent the sole supply of labor under law.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:11:37 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Yes but there isn't two Fire Departments that you can work for. There is only one. So each side has as much leverage as the other.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:13:28 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Yes but there isn't two Fire Departments that you can work for. There is only one. So each side has as much leverage as the other.


Yeah, I forgot the fire department is the only employer.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:19:18 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		For someone that is a fireman. It is the only employer or do you know of another fire department. Or say a Policeman. IS there two Police? Or military? We have two of those?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:21:52 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

For someone that is a fireman. It is the only employer or do you know of another fire department. Or say a Policeman. IS there two Police? Or military? We have two of those?


Develop another skill. Or start a private fire department.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 8/10/2010 7:22:28 AM >

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
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RE: Public pensions - 8/10/2010 7:28:09 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Why, they have the skill and have bargained in good faith with the employer. I don't know why you want to penalize any union because they are maximizing what money they can make. Seems downright UnAmerican to me.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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