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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:10:40 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		--  the well is necessary as water is key to life.   It fills a need.   Many in music get a real job because - people do not pay for the music like they would for stuff or utilities.   Not all that talent is no talent.

while I am at it- we do not need paper pushers on Wall street- and we do not need 98% of the lawyers.  we need the basics in life.     Not attorneys who take from the producers.   Very little cash goes to the real artists- it is top heavy- and most are screwed out of what is their by the industry.   The industry likes to stick the RIAA on people- and then even short changes the artists that are supposed to be paid.

Like it or not- the whole model is going to shift into something different then what it is today.

Just about every field has been outsourced- or replaced by computers.  

Even lawyers now get it..... 

it is sad that the mom and pops place has so many tensions on them.    We need those small businesses.

The last few decades have seen very little talent. In war- we should be at peak for the music.   But it is all rehashed.

The whole field of entertainment is in a creative dry spell.    When that changes- the masses will be more then happy to pay cash money for it.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:27:27 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Why stop there?

Water runs in the streams and falls from the skies. Food grows in the fields.

Kill the economy now.

Don't collect pretty rocks.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:42:59 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I spend more on water in any month - then I do on music.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:45:48 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		MM, in any month- which do you spend more money on?


water or music?

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:47:10 PM   
Termyn8or


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Hunky, about twenty years ago I figured out a modification for the GTE Sylvania E4X series TV chassis. All the new ICs were defective, but I figured out a workaround which actually worked. Should I still get paid ? I looked at a print, figured it out and once done, we made some money. In that case I told very few other techs about it and we made money. But what if someone wanted to do it today ? It's like my house analogy. But I would not assert that musicians do not work. Come on over sometimes when I decide to practice. You'll hear as much cussing as I search for the right chord as you would if I were bangung up my knuckles working on a car. If you say that musicians don't do any real work, then the people who send you a check every month are also doing no real work. But the point is, should I still be getting paid for something I did twenty years ago ?

Mm, at this point I will assert that music is supposed to be play, not work. Society has changed that and maybe you didn't understand that I was talking a very long time ago. But your rebuttal to my point about public domain is more forward than that issue. Explain what happened to public domain. What determines the content of public domain ? That the composer is dead ? Not so, someone owns the rights to the works of the Beatles, and surely a good portion of that was written by John Lennon. So it's not death, so what is it ? I know it has changed in the last decade or so, but I think it used to be like seven or ten years and then a song was in public domain. Why did this change ? Standard answer.

When I play 100 Proof Aged In Soul - Everthing Good Is Bad, who gets the royalties ? The band broke up in the 1970s. I assert that the suits are getting the money and not paying shit to anyone involved with creating or performing that song.

I also agree with those posters who say music can be an annoyance, a distraction. Usually when I play music I play it loud for two reasons. One I want to hear every nuance of the piece. When I finally got really good speaker I was impress, and even moreso by the high quality of some older music. What's more I don't want people talking, like some people are with movies. SHADDAP ! Dammit. It's been many years since I had "background" music. We have discussions here, and when they stop, that's the time for music. I'll spin a couple, and then it is back to no sound. I don't turn it down I turn it off. Well the music, my amp runs 24/7. Actually there is some background music here at times, but I don't spin it. When I want to hear something I do not want to hear anything else. So I am different, shoot me. (I'll loan you a gun)

Nonetheless, what happened to public domain ? And are they paying Betthoven's heirs from every concert that uses his work ? I don't think so.

But the way I use music differently is not pertinent to the copyright issue. If you assert that public domain is like it was, perhaps intended to be, then at least half of the songs on my HD are perfectly legal. If not, what happened to public domain ? And what of covers ? If a group of heavy metalists today decide to do a song written fifty years ago and metallize it, who should they be paying ? The author is long dead, or is there now a certain number of years involved ?

T

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:56:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

MM, in any month- which do you spend more money on?


water or music?


I don't spend money on either.

I sure make more from music. It paid for the well and the home and the food and the car.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:57:33 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		It is easier to want to pay a live person- rather then some corporation.

And Term- you are right- the threashold that death once was the cut off for copyright.   But not any more.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:59:09 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

my point about public domain is more forward than that issue. Explain what happened to public domain. What determines the content of public domain ? That the composer is dead ? Not so, someone owns the rights to the works of the Beatles, and surely a good portion of that was written by John Lennon. So it's not death, so what is it ? I know it has changed in the last decade or so, but I think it used to be like seven or ten years and then a song was in public domain.


You simply have no idea what public domain means or how it works.

Copyright is 75 years, dead or alive. Just as people can leave their other assets to heirs, or sell them, so to with properties.

And once in public domain, it stays there.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 3:59:26 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

MM, in any month- which do you spend more money on?


water or music?


I don't spend money on either.

I sure make more from music. It paid for the well and the home and the food and the car.


That is impressive.    Few can get that far. 

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 4:01:34 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

If a group of heavy metalists today decide to do a song written fifty years ago and metallize it, who should they be paying ?


Their record company will pay the licensing fee if they record it.

The venue has covered it when they perform it, and the songwriter will earn royalties.

As for your Beethoven question--that far predates copyright law. Once we had copyright law, it sunsets, as explained above.

It's not unique--patents work similarly, and for the same reason.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/10/2010 4:02:20 PM >

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 4:03:49 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

MM, in any month- which do you spend more money on?

water or music?


I don't spend money on either.

I sure make more from music. It paid for the well and the home and the food and the car.


That is impressive.    Few can get that far. 


Thank you, pahb.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 4:25:13 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Musician is a viable trade, just like any other art, if one says we can do without art, then musicians also fall into that category.

I very deeply admire musicians, those that can pick up an instrument and create a feeling in sound, for I believe music is a form of communication not all of us can convey. Sure we can all listen and appreciate, even feel, but can anyone just play, I think not, as myself as an example I have tried many an instrument. I can learn the mechanics, but my feeling is it seems for other outlets, which at times is much to my annoyance, but then, I am only just learning to be free in thought and feeling.

My dancing is my first move, two years in now and it is only just now becoming a natural desire to dance to music, before it was, why are people moving the way they do to what they are hearing, for I could not see the logic.With free thought, feeling, music and art, logic has little place, yet I feel with music there is a mathematical formula I have yet to work out for myself to play my current choice of instrument. As with me, whence I have created an equation that works, then I can do what I desire to do.

The work of musicians I do feel is underrated, and that by just how much music there is out there, for it has become a form of pollution and that by the overplaying of what lines the pockets of the musician's entourage until the next song. Perhaps record label corporate interests have reduced music to nothing more than a mere product to be consumed and thrown away, in this consumer society we are told we are in ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 4:48:13 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
It's why so many of us got out, and why you're left with 2000 stations playing the same old stuff and garage bands fantasizing their web site will get them discovered.


In all fairness, the issue of collecting licensing fees at the bar/restaurant level has always been poorly enforced. It's not something that was a watershed of money that suddenly dried up. What killed/is killing the industry (in my opinion) is file sharing or downloading over the internet at large. Radio still pays its royalties to those owners whose music is played but royalties from music sales have plummeted.

As far as the 2000 cookie cutter stations goes (which is certainly a true observation) I would attribute that in large part to rules changes regarding ownership of radio stations. It allowed these conglomerates like Clear Channel to run amok.

Excellent commentary. Yours have been the most concise and spot on of all the comments in this thread.


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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 4:54:02 PM   
sappatoti


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From: the edge of darkness...
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

A very long time ago, before BMI, ASCAP and the RIAA ever came along people would play music just because they wanted to, and the listeners would give their praise and that was pay enough. The next morning they got up and plowed a field or shod a horse, whatever. It was not work, it was play.

Absolutely and completely incorrect.

Before radio, people paid to hear live music. Song writers earned money for printed sheet music.

Before that they worked for the court or the church.

And none of this infringes on music for pleasure.

But if you want professional music, somebody needs to pay or it, or the professionals will move on.

I agree with Musicmystery here. Handel and Mozart didn't compose music for play then returned to their "day jobs." Composing music was their day jobs. Kings and royalty commissioned them to write, and sometimes perform, for a party, coronation, wedding... whatever.

Professional music composition and performance goes back at least as far as the Renaissance period, perhaps farther back.

_____________________________

Never mind the man on the edge of the darkness... he means no harm...

"Community, Identity, Stability." ~ A Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, 1932

If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 8:03:33 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I did not know a simple coffee shop has to pay $800 a month for license fees.  That seems excessive.

If they play the radio to the public,they have to pay.

It`s not 800 a month.

All the owners I know who pipe music subscribe to a music service who in turn pays the royalties.

I know a deli owner who got busted by the enforcement team.They told the guy he was breaking the law and put him on notice.That`s when I 1st learned about this.

_____________________________

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 9:05:22 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I did not know a simple coffee shop has to pay $800 a month for license fees.  That seems excessive.

If they play the radio to the public,they have to pay.

It`s not 800 a month.

All the owners I know who pipe music subscribe to a music service who in turn pays the royalties.

I know a deli owner who got busted by the enforcement team.They told the guy he was breaking the law and put him on notice.That`s when I 1st learned about this.


So downloading to an IPOD and plugging it into the system at work to play is illegal?

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 10:01:09 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Yup,from what I understand.Or play albums,CDs,tapes.

When you buy an album(dating myself),the understanding is you`ll play it privately.

To use that music in a commercial establishment is not the same thing since in practice,the music is used to enhance the establishment to draw more patrons,thus the musicians should get a cut of that.

.

In private offices or businesses,I don`t think this law applies.People can listen to a radio,net-radio or other media like everyone else.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/10/2010 11:43:33 PM   
Termyn8or


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OK Mm, 75 years, gotcha. But what if there are no known heirs or an estate to pay ? I think the suits just pocket that money. What's more they don't even have to, just throw those billions in the bank and collect interest. Thanks for the enlightenment, I never said I was omnipotent. Some think so, but so what.

For the record I willl correct myself. Forget about Beetoven and all that and get back to Og the cave Man playing the first drum. My point was that we have turned play into work. How much does Lebron make now ? Does Springsteen need those millions or could he get by on a mere four hundred grand a year like the President of the US ?

Why did I pay $18.99 in 1979 dollars for a piece of plastic that it cost about a buck to produce ? Armani.

"So downloading to an IPOD and plugging it into the system at work to play is illegal? "

ZZACTLY

If your music is uplifting and improves morale, the company should pay then. They got the benefit in a commercial establishment. Is that the "law" or is it not ?

In this country there was a service called Musak. It used a (IIRC) 76Khz subcarrier on alot of FM stations, and this is seperate, like SAP was on TVs. You couldn't even get it without a special reciever because it required a better bandwith in the detector stage. It was so much a month, totally commercial and announcer free and was played in malls and stores all over this country. It was transmitted secretly for decades along with our usual commercial broadcasting on the FM band. This had beeen going on since the 1970s I think. Things are different now I know, but this serves the point that this is not really all that new of an issue.

But if the issue is copyrights, it applies to video as well. When my house burnt in 1995 I listed my illegal cable box right on the insurance form and got something like $400 for it. Now hold on here. Illegal cable box. But the point was I didn't use it. It was not hooked up and there was actually no cable coming in the house. I said it was for experimental purposes only, educational like. This thing was bad to the bone, it would decode anything up to SSAVI 3, and I got the sound cleared up. I could even do the satellite signal with it but on those, them old ten foot dishes, I couldn't get the sound. I sought out the deaf community of course :-) LOL

But the thing really is, when I had the feed and the box, I didn't use it. Actually I did once and watched Don't Tell Mom The Babysitter's Dead. That's it. How much do I owe for that ? I just wanted to prove I could do it, and I didn't offer it up for sale or anything. But when it got burnt to a crisp it netted me a few Franklins.

Know what, it is time for yet another angle. Hows come the banks and auto industries need bailouts, but not the entertainment industry ? Screw it, I am not saying it again. They got the sheeple buying things they definitely don't need and in some cases not even want. This fuels the economy. Hollywood exports alot.

What does that say about us ?

T

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/11/2010 6:11:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

But what if there are no known heirs or an estate to pay ?


There are. Copyright is a matter of record, as is its transference. Contact the publishing company, or have an attorney search it.

This is like saying "What if you don't know whether someone owns the land?" Someone does, and you go find out.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/11/2010 6:16:28 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		Use it without permission.

If it is at all successful, you'll find out who owns it.

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