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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 10:07:40 AM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Alright then. Now we have a neighborhood band that puts out a product better than what is on the radio for example. Where does this stand, does it mean that quality means nothing ? Three dudes, three chords and a voice that can imitate a dinosaur, MILLIONS. Guy studying and practicing all the time, NOTHING.

A good band with a few good tunes might be garnered by a record company, but they must fill the album, it must be seven or eight tunes. Then under contract they have to produce another album in like two years or else. Their first album was the best because it took their whole life to do it. That is why many bands have their first album as their best album. If you were in the thick of it, you saw it. We all saw it, at least the ones of us who are not sheeple. Look at Boston, and many others.

Now these bands were young people and when they got that first check they went partying. Then the second album sucked, but it got the promotion and radio play, and made a bit of money. I bet you don't remember Boston's second album, and that is because you don't want to.


Again the quality argument. Pointless. Musician X can labor for years over a collection of music that is technically brilliant that nobody wants to purchase or listen to. Musician Z can write an album's worth of work after having played the instrument less than a year that he recorded in his garage and that ends up making him a millionaire. You may not like his music but that matters not. Enough people did to make him a rich man. This quality discussion concerning music always befuddles me. It's the discussion of snobs.

You are generally correct about the "sophomore jinx". One notable exception was Bruce Springsteen. Two initial albums that were largely critical and commercial failures at the time. The third album made him a household name. That happened more often way back when than it does today. The popular music business is much more of a business now than it was then. The Boss can be thankful that John Hammond chose to support him until he paid off.

Boston's second album sucked. Here we go again. By what objective measure did it "suck"? You didn't like it? The first album took 3 months to sell 1 million units. The second album sold 4 million units the first month alone. The first album outsold the second by a margin of more than 2:1 but the second sold 7 million units worldwide. Hardly a dismal failure. Do you know how many unsigned bands out there would gladly sacrifice both a testicle and a kidney to record an album that sucked that bad?

Quality in music. Show me an objective yardstick and I will listen.



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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 10:39:27 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Selling alot of albums tho is not really a measure of good talent.  Popular yes- but good talent -  maybe-- and maybe not.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 10:52:21 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		And the same could be said for any business.

Wal-Mart isn't successful for its superior quality.


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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 11:01:02 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		and look at what people pay money for.   LOL.

true.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 11:12:38 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Or pizza and beer would be the height of gourmet fare.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 11:16:10 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		Good beer is good food.


Philistine!

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 11:38:06 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Well I did have my share of it.

And several other people's share too.

Alas.


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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 11:41:00 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		Well, I am glad you are out of the pool then.....so to speak



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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 12:05:59 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Yup.

Without question, my ability to make good decisions has not extended to all areas of my life.



Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 12:35:22 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Or pizza and beer would be the height of gourmet fare. "

You win the metaphor contest with that one. According to Micheal Stanley band, "money's still the way they keep score". It seems what we're saying here is that the suits do not need to know what is good, just what will sell. But can we really fault them ? They are in business to make money like anyone else.

It might be time to boil this issue down a bit. It seems to me what we are really discussing is intellectual property rights. That might be a broader subject, but this is definitely a part of it. That means patent rights are a part of it then. If I design and build something for my own use (which I have) and my buddy comes and sees it and says "You oughtta patent that", should I bother ? Patents are not self enforcing. You have to watch the market for products that might be close enough in design to sue the manufacturer, that is if you are granted the patent and that won't happen if "prior art" has been found.

Though I am not experienced in copyrighting or patenting anything, the issue seems very similar to me. How does this relate ? And where do corporate issues trump that of the individual ? As I have stated before for example TV was invented in the US and in England almost simultaneously. I am not sure if either inventor made any big money off of something that became a household standard item. What's more, color TV was invented here, by a corporation, have they been enriched directly for this ?

So from this perspective it seems we have an enforcement agency for music, and other media, but not for the invention of items that have a use. As much as I like music, the fact is that we can live without it. It seems like my axiom developed a few years ago holds true.

'If you want to make money, sell something useless'

Think about it, what are your needs ? OK you need a refrigerator. Once you get one, normally you are not going to buy another until that one breaks down. That could be decades. But if you sell jewelry for example, people will always come back for more. That's because in essence we are dealing with disposable income.

On the other hand we have many machines, machines that make it possible to feed the people, to move them about, to work and such. Did the inventors of these machines get rich ? In some cases yes and in other cases no. And same as music, quality is apparently not the deciding factor. Then what is ?

My one buddy, RA who is an excellent guitarist said that Jimi Hendrix was second rate. However Jimi somehow got his break, and lived the life of a "rock star" and probably drowned in his own vomit. Had la dolche vita though. What made the difference ?

Three streets away there is probably a kid playing basketball who could replace Lebron. If you gave him a hundred grand a year he wouldn't know what to do with all the money. Certain industries in this country have the uncanny ability to show massive profits, like the medical industry. Quality is not the issue there either.

The answer in the end seems to be that some are chosen to get rich and others are not. The criteria for this decision is not based on aptitude or talent or anything like that. So what is it ?

You may be a better musician than one who is sailing a sixty foot yacht off the coast of Maine, why ?

T

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 12:40:39 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

You win the metaphor contest with that one. According to Micheal Stanley band, "money's still the way they keep score". It seems what we're saying here is that the suits do not need to know what is good, just what will sell. But can we really fault them ? They are in business to make money like anyone else.


Well in all fairness, it's how you're keeping score too--your lament is the money that didn't go where you thought it should, without a word for the non-pecuniary aspects of the work.

When friends drag me out to play at a coffeehouse, I'm not thinking "I should be well-compensated, damn it!" No. I'm out for a good time with people I like doing something I love. I've no problem with that at all.

Naturally, I can't do that full time and still eat. So like everyone else, I make both business decisions and personal decisions.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

quote:

My one buddy, RA who is an excellent guitarist said that Jimi Hendrix was second rate.

Then your buddy isn't listening.

"So and so sucks" is the continual mantra of the wannabe--musicians, writers, artists, potential business owners, etc. Tell you what--professionals don't generally say things like that. They hear what's there, appreciate what's in it and what it takes to do it, and worry about their own skill and technique and ideas. The wannabes should do the same--they'd get much further.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/15/2010 12:46:14 PM >

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 12:42:16 PM   
TheRaptorJesus


Posts: 640
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline 		But did they tell you the name of the game?.... Boy?

I do believe they call it "riding the gravy train".

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What if your God... were a motherfucking DINOSAUR?!

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 12:47:12 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		And again, hardly unique to music, the premise of this thread.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 12:53:25 PM   
TheRaptorJesus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And again, hardly unique to music, the premise of this thread.

I was just referencing the dulcet sounds of the Pink Floyd while commenting on the current tangent of discourse, good sir.

Trust me, I know the trials and tribulations involved with other mediums of art.

_____________________________

What if your God... were a motherfucking DINOSAUR?!

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 1:03:16 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I dated a guy who lived near a band that had an annoying 1 hit wonder. We heard them practice all summer long.  They had an amp.   That is about all the had going.   i can still hear the tune but not the words.   

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 5:48:00 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"And again, hardly unique to music, the premise of this thread"

So now we have to agree to agree. Money is the commonality in almost anything. It is a useful tool for trade, but some people wreck it.

I think it was WMMS here that at one time let people send in tapes, like of garage bands and stuff like that. The little people could get a break sometimes. Around here the college stations still do it sometimes, and have interviews with these garage bands. They want new material, and I think that's the way it should be. Money, or more aptly the lust for money has ruined it. Mm, you want to play out just for your personal satisfaction and some report ? Get Paltalk. You can play and anyone in the world can hear it. If you were to do it, let me know when you'll be on and I'll make it a point to be on. You sound like you know what you are doing.

I think the music business is going down the tubes, which explains why they might go for these small venues for revenue. It's wrecked just like everyhing else these days. You say it is not unique to music and I agree. Greed has wrecked everything. Now we are down to discussing if I go to a bar with a boombox and play a CD on it, the federalies need to know if there was a cover charge. They are scraping for every last dime. It's not hard to figure out why.

In a way I see it as a sign of the times. Our society is coming to fruition, and you know what happens to fruit. It either gets eaten or rots and spreads seeds. I look at the bigger picture now, and this is happening in many aspects of life and the economy. Sadly, to put it another way, our society has reached the end of it's product life cycle. A doomsayer you say ? Well what if doom really is right around the corner ? Even the paranoid might have real enemies. In other words it may sound crazy, but so have other things which have come to pass.

But now I have an idea. Termy's taxi, bar, restaurant, brothel and crack house. Nothing but completely live original music in the place. Fine cuisine down to greaseburgers. No parking, you don't drive there, we pick you up and that is built into the cover charge. There is no legal battle because even the live bands that play there every day are forbidden from doing covers. No radios or anything of the sort allowed.

Whatever - I know - dream on.

T

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 6:26:48 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

I think the music business is going down the tubes,


You are very late to the party. What we're in now started in the 70s.

quote:

which explains why they might go for these small venues for revenue.


No, very very old news. And we're talking about a few hundred bucks, not some cost-prohibitive fee.

If they want to include music as part of their business, the music publishers, be they mega-corps or smart single artists, are due their due.

quote:

Termy's taxi, bar, restaurant, brothel and crack house.

That's kind of how jazz started a little over a century ago.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/15/2010 6:28:21 PM >

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 8:41:41 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR

If I go to the cinema, I pay for the seat in the cinema. After having seen the movie, I have the memory of it. If my memory is less than perfect, I pay again for the seat in the cinema and watch the movie again, as they have memorized it for me wholesale on their tape or whatever they use these days. Now suppose that I have perfect memory. I can just sit in my own seat, or on the curb of the street and watch the entire movie again in full detail just by recalling it from my memory. Should I pay the people who made that movie for replaying that in my memory? Should Albert Einstein be paid whenever someone writes E=mc^2 or recalls that tidbit from memory?

Similarly when a band plays music in some setting, then I pay to get into that setting. When I want to hear it again if my memory is faulty, I pay again to get into some establishment where that band plays the same song. Now if I myself recall that song perfectly and can recall it from memory and enjoy it, should I pay that band each time I do so?

Should I charge everybody who has ever seen my copyrighted face and recalls it from memory?

Should I charge everybody who reads my posts on the CM forums or who, having eidetic memory, recalls my every word and typing error from memory?

Information can be sold only once. As long as it is not sold, it is a secret. Tell or sell it to one single other person and one has lost all rights to it: it is now in his memory to do with as he pleases, a secret no more. Anyone who sells information - not a physical product such as a seat or standing room or whatever - more than once is a con man, in my opinion.

People use all kinds of contraptions to enhance their abilities: miscroscopes, telescopes, instruments, parachutes, spear throwers etcetera. They have also invented all kinds of artificial memories during the centuries: paper, writing, illustrations, grammophone disks and rolls, tapes, floppy disks and hard drive disks. It is your memory, not that of someone else. You bought that artificial memory, a physical item, in some store, or perchance constructed it yourself. Nobody has any right to tell anyone that they are prohibited to remember fact X or movie Y or song Z, that they are prohibited to have that memory in their (artifical) memory. That would be ludicrous.

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 9:37:34 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Of course. But that's not at all the case here. Any more than remembering riding in a taxi doesn't mean you're charged for remembering the ride.

If you came home and with your perfect memory wrote down the music score and sold it, you'd be charged.

We are talking not about owning thoughts, but using others' creations for your own business' gain.

Perhaps you've heard of patents? You came up with it, you get the reward.

No different than property rights. I plant the tree, I own the apples.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/15/2010 9:40:32 PM >

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RE: The Music-Copyright Enforcers - 8/15/2010 10:06:22 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
If you came home and with your perfect memory wrote down the music score and sold it, you'd be charged.

Why? If them creators wanted to own it, they should not themselves haves sold it, but kept it a secret.

If someone carves The Thinker by Rhodin into a piece of wood and sells it as a Rhodin, he is a forger, but in my opinion he is entitled to sell it with his own name on it. Rhodin did not carve that piece himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
We are talking not about owning thoughts, but using others' creations for your own business' gain.

So a restaurant that uses porcelain to promote their business gain ought to pay the Chinese for inventing it each time someone orders a steak? Suppose that your waitress goes to a hairdresser on your order so that her better looks may attract more customers, you ought to pay the hairdresser for each customer that you get? The notion is ridiculous. It is unethical. It is a swindle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Perhaps you've heard of patents?

Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You came up with it, you get the reward.

No. You get production exclusivity for a number of years and you sell not your patent, but a physical product that you produced.

For example, last Tuesday I went to a computer shop and bought a box - a physical product - with anti-malware.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
No different than property rights. I plant the tree, I own the apples.

Not if it grows in my garden. Information is not a property, unless it is kept secret and known to only a single individual.


< Message edited by Rule -- 8/15/2010 10:09:45 PM >

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