Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

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Brain -> Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 9:57:32 PM)
He is putting money into the system with no hope of getting any back. He is doing manual labor and jobs most Americans won't touch, even in a recession. Let immigrants like Mr. Martinez stay and kick the violent drug dealers out. Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Angel Martinez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour. Not surprisingly, Mr. Martinez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martinez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system. Last year, Mr. Martinez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martinez is not entitled to benefits. He belongs to a big club. The estimated 11+ million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7+ billion a year. While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking. http://www.afroarticles.com/article-dashboard/Article/Illegal-Immigrants-Are-Bolstering-Social-Security-With-Billions/211689?sms_ss=propeller Illegal immigrants who worked in a vineyard in Clarksburg, Calif., paid taxes for Social Security and Medicare, but will not get any benefits. [image]local://upfiles/392475/03955C80912E4CD3BC35A60343C2A323.jpg[/image]

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 10:16:17 PM)
It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job. Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions. .............. In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages. (now that its in perspective) ...... The mismatched W-2's fit like a glove on illegal immigrants' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the businesses with inaccurate W-2's were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations. ............ Last February, for instance, discrepancies in Social Security numbers put an end to the job of Minerva Ortega, 25, from Zacatecas, in northern Mexico, who worked in the cheese department at a warehouse for Mike Campbell & Associates, a distributor for Trader Joe's, a popular discount food retailer with a large operation in California. The company asked dozens of workers to prove that they had cleared up or were in the process of clearing up the "discrepancy between the information on our payroll related to your employment and the S.S.A.'s records." Most could not. Ms. Ortega said about 150 workers lost their jobs. In a statement, Mike Campbell said that it did not fire any of the workers, but Robert Camarena, a company official, acknowledged that many left. (Good for Trader Joes!) ............... Ms. Ortega is now looking for work again. She does not want to go back to the fields, so she is holding out for a better-paid factory job. Whatever work she finds, though, she intends to go on the payroll with the same Social Security number she has now, a number that will not jibe with federal records. With this number, she will continue paying taxes. Last year she paid about $1,200 in Social Security taxes, matched by her employer, on an income of $19,000. She will never see the money again, she realizes, but at least she will have a job in the United States. "I don't pay much attention," Ms. Ortega said. "I know I don't get any benefit." Your source. And an interesting article. Just one question... quote: Illegal immigrants who worked in a vineyard in Clarksburg, Calif., paid taxes for Social Security and Medicare, but will not get any benefits. They are known to be illegal... yet they pay taxes... proving they are committing a felony. Why didnt they get reported?

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 10:37:53 PM)
I work in agriculture, both in the offices and the fields, and I have been explaining this situation to people for years. It never crosses anyone's mind that we actually do require a SSN to hire the field workers or else we get fined to the point of shutting down (thus forcing our buyers to look for other sources of produce, typically in Central and South America). Because they are illegal immagrints, they buy an exsisting SSN of a real American person to use in their paperwork that management fills out or else we cannot hire them. It is not our job to investigate our workers and look into every single one of them and validity of their paperwork. Our job is to grow the food, harvest the food, and sell the food with enough of a profit margin to hang on to our business by the skin of our teeth. We need hands to do that, and most Americans just are not willing to do such back-breaking work for minimum wage or by a quota system. You like fresh produce in the store? Well if these guys didn't do what they did in this industry that food would cost exponentially more. Americans pay the lowest prices for food compared to their incomes in the WORLD people, and it's in large part to illegal immigrant labor. If we didn't accept their paperwork at face value and turned them away, we would eventually be run out of business by cheaper sources from other countries, putting many Americans out of work and slightly raising the cost of food. I don't know about you, but having our country depend on another as a source of food does not sound like a good idea (Rome did the same thing and look how that ended). Portions of their pay go to medicar/medical, taxes, and social security. They will never be able to claim those benifits or get a tax return. They are basically donating a large chunk of their paycheck that they earned with blood and sweat to us. If they need to go to the ER or want their kids in schools here, I say leave it the f*ck alone and be grateful your apples don't cost $8/each or more like in Japan. I am against the fact that this is all illegal, and I have a great distaste for those who come here just to mooch off the system. But until the perfect storm of conditions in their countries improving, immigration and naturalization process made more affordable and accessible, and Americans wanting to work the fields again this is just the way it's going to be.

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 10:41:01 PM)
You are required to file the paperwork ... the I-9, yes? When you get back the report that says the SS number isnt valid, or does not match their records... then what do you do?

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 10:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You are required to file the paperwork ... the I-9, yes? When you get back the report that says the SS number isnt valid, or does not match their records... then what do you do? We tell them we can't hire them because it's invalid, and they usually go out and buy another one and go to the next farm in the area and try again, but this actually occurs rarely. This is because they buy real SSNs and paperwork of real people from dealers who specialize in identities. It's not that hard for these dealers to find these numbers, most of them get this info just by rifling through the trash or paying groups of homeless people to do it for them. The workers will use the real, legal name that matches the SSN. Or, someone will have a relative who is a citizen/has a greencard and then "rents" their information out to other people in the family and friends who are not legal. Many people will actually use the same name and SSN until a crackdown forces them to no longer use it. We do not report them because, like I said, that isn't our job; if we did then word would spread that our business does that among the worker population and no one would come to use for work and we wouldn't have enough hands to get the job done. We would have to offer much more money for it to be worth the risk for them to expose themselves ... it's a vicious cycle in a struggling industry. Sorry we can't all toe the line to the law, I wish things were different.

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 10:57:25 PM)
We buy local.. meaning fruits and vegetables. Thankfully, in Pittsburgh, the strip district and local farmer markets are wonderful. I would not be surprised to find out illegal labor had been used in the local fields as well. And while i can understand the plight of the illegal alien... as well as the small growers/farmers... that still doesnt excuse the repetitive breaking of the law.

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:07:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl We buy local.. meaning fruits and vegetables. Thankfully, in Pittsburgh, the strip district and local farmer markets are wonderful. I would not be surprised to find out illegal labor had been used in the local fields as well. And while i can understand the plight of the illegal alien... as well as the small growers/farmers... that still doesnt excuse the repetitive breaking of the law. Good for you on the buy local movement. I raise the majority of what I consume myself at home and try to trade with others when I want something different. It's easier here in CA since our growing season is year-round. Oh and let me assure you: there is absolutely illegal labor being used in your local fields. It is unavoidable in any area of the country. I'm glad that you can understand the farmer's plight, and the plight of the laborers. Most never even consider it before running their mouth's off about the subject that they have no real knowledge about. The industry as a whole is struggling to survive on many different fronts in this country, so even though we hate breaking the law until the world changes we are going to keep doing things they way we are doing them to stay afloat. And, technically, the ones doing the hiring aren't breaking any laws unless we willingly and knowingly hire those without "proof" of legal right to be in this country. We are given paperwork, it clears, we hire them. We know that a good portion of the workers aren't really the person in the documents, but we are not obligated to prove or disprove that. It's a gray area of morals and law-breaking.

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:09:40 PM)
You dont hire until the paperwork clears? I thought the requirement was it had to be filled out on day one and in by day three.

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:17:21 PM)
It's ag. It's different for each farm/manager how they deal with their paperwork even though there are industry and legal standards. Some will put the laborers to work the day they come in if their documents look real enough, and will only let them go when things turn out to be fishy. Some will wait for everything to clear to be safe. Some really dirty owners/managers will put the paperwork off for weeks, pay the workers half of what they have really earned in cash with the promise to pay the rest when they finally get the green-light, and then fire them when it turns out invalid without paying the rest of what they are owed. I have worked for many different kinds; rarely does anyone do things exactly by the book when it comes to getting the paperwork done.

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:23:41 PM)
This is what is killing me with this whole issue. I feel for illegals, i really do. I understand why they do what they do. And then they get exploited in a wide variety of ways. BUT they are setting themselves up to be exploited... and they know it. They are doing it to themselves. Its like an addict in the following aspect.... How do you help someone who wont help themselves?

WyldHrt -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:30:15 PM)
quote: This is because they buy real SSNs and paperwork of real people from dealers who specialize in identities. It's not that hard for these dealers to find these numbers, most of them get this info just by rifling through the trash or paying groups of homeless people to do it for them. The workers will use the real, legal name that matches the SSN. See, here's my issue. How much does it suck to be the person whose trash is rifled and identity is stolen? Can you imagine facing an IRS audit when your SSN has been used by, say, 20 other people? Even one or two could be a real mess, depending on the withholding. You are single and withholding at that rate, the other people using your info are withholding as married with 5 dependents.... yeah, you are screwed. quote: Or, someone will have a relative who is a citizen/has a greencard and then "rents" their information out to other people in the family and friends who are not legal. This often comes back to bite them in the ass. I know a worker who did this (lent, not rented his info) and wound up in hock to the IRS for $2500 in back taxes for money he never earned. He's legal, but has been taking under the table jobs to avoid the taxes and mounting charges that he can't afford to pay. He fucked up, but it still sucks that he will have to pay sooner or later.

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:31:13 PM)
Because if things were any better where they came from, they would go back. Sadly most of the time they want to be here because even living in what most Americans would consider to be horrible living conditions, working demeaning/exhausting/undesirable jobs at the mercy of someone who could be kind or cruel is still better than what they would face at home. For most, the exploitation is a justifiable risk. Of course, I speak in generalized scenarios to shorten my answers. Not all situations are like this in all cases, and anyone who thinks I mean all of this a a rule for the whole illegal immigrant issue is a moron. Everything in life is a case-by-case basis. -edited to ad: the above statement was added not because of any hostile feelings for anyone here on the board who has been responding to me, but because of a PM I received. JFYI

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/9/2010 11:37:55 PM)
I have seen it argued that those who are leaving their homes to come here are abandoning thier families and communities, leaving them in even worse conditions while attempting to find an "easier" way. While i dont exactly agree with that sentiment, i can understand that belief. These people also send money home to families. Its just a screwed up situation that really needs to have a remedy... for all concerned.

Fellow -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 3:12:02 AM)
Foreign individuals (if legal) are treated differently from citizens in other places as well. For example in Russia personal income tax rate is 13% for citizens, 30% for foreigners working in Russia. The illegals have a choice to work under such conditions (or not to accept the situation). So, I do not really see a major abuse problem here, except the government failure to regulate and enforce the laws. The last is, of course, by design. The corporate interest prevails. Is it really a good thing (if to consider wider economic perspective) that food prices are relatively inexpensive? It is not really technically a problem to cut illegals out and let the market regulate the prices and labor. Simply, there is no willingness (by the government) to do it. The number of agricultural work visas can be added any time if it makes sense and if it is needed. Compare with outsourced labor Chinese-produced consumer items. We have similar problem in the agriculture. Now even royal scientist Krugman is talking about "structural unemployment" problem. The idea that Americans are capable only sitting in offices is baloney.

thishereboi -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 5:06:54 AM)
quote: He is putting money into the system with no hope of getting any back. He is doing manual labor and jobs most Americans won't touch, even in a recession. Let immigrants like Mr. Martinez stay and kick the violent drug dealers out. So your ok with these illegal immigrants being exploited? We should just ignore the situation and allow them to be used so we can have cheaper food on the table? I feel bad for Mr. Martinez, but continuing the abuse doesn't seem like the right answer either. If we give amnesty to everyone here, they will go get better jobs and other illegals following behind will take their places in the fields. The employers in California and other states don't want to pay better wages, they want to keep their cheap labor force right where it is. Kinda like having their own little china right in the backyard. So now when anyone talks about immigration laws, they scream racist because they don't want anything to change. They don't give a shit about the immigrants, they just want to be able to keep using them.

DarkSteven -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 6:29:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl They are known to be illegal... yet they pay taxes... proving they are committing a felony. Why didnt they get reported? How? The detection is only available to the IRS, which sees more than one income streams for a SSN, and can track one down because it is different from the address of the person filing. The IRS doesn't have the resources or inclination to chase down illegals.

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 7:38:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi So your ok with these illegal immigrants being exploited? We should just ignore the situation and allow them to be used so we can have cheaper food on the table? I feel bad for Mr. Martinez, but continuing the abuse doesn't seem like the right answer either. If we give amnesty to everyone here, they will go get better jobs and other illegals following behind will take their places in the fields. The employers in California and other states don't want to pay better wages, they want to keep their cheap labor force right where it is. Kinda like having their own little china right in the backyard. So now when anyone talks about immigration laws, they scream racist because they don't want anything to change. They don't give a shit about the immigrants, they just want to be able to keep using them. Ok, I take offense to this a little bit on both the China front and the accusation that the people who work the fields in the US are nearly slave labor. I've been to China and things are not that bad (in the agriculture side anyway, can't speak for every industry). I usually love reading your posts boi as I find you often funny and insightful and I do love a giggle, but not this time. Ever since the government in China realized it's horrible incompetentcy with the Great Leap Forward that caused all of the crop failure and starvation during early years of the Communist Revolution, they at least had the decency to know that using forced labor of city kids in the country wasn't a good idea. So eventually they privatized the land and gave it back to the farmers, the people who actually know what the hell they are doing. Quality of life is vastly improving for farmers in China, and yeah there are bad "owners" who pull tricky crap on their laborers but that occurs on a individual basis (not a general rule) and the laborers have local officials to report exploitation to if they want. They are educated not to be taken advantage of and to speak up if they have been, but it is up to them to be their own advocate (and hope that the members of the Party in their area have not been bribed by their boss). Secondly? You make it sound as if we in the ag industry here in CA treat the laborers as slaves, as work mules more than as people. Thanks to Caesar Chavez, OSHA enforcers, USDA inspectors, and countless other advocates things in the field are not reminiscent of a plantation setting. It makes sense for management to treat them well too. If we treat them badly, very few will return to us for work causing us to fall behind or one of the legal workers will report the situation to the authorities and have us fined/shut down. Occasionally, there comes a rule meant to make things better for them that the workers break on their own even though management asks them not to (don't even get me started on the long-handle hoes Vs. the hand hoes issue lol). These people are not all one race, despite the pics or what you have heard. I am out there with my hands dirty, and so is the majority of the management levels as well (saves money and helps with vigilance on the conditions of the crops). We make friends with those that are friendly, we leave it alone with those that are not. We hang out, we bullshit, we do each other favors, we visit each others families (this is made easier by the year-round growing season in CA, many laborers don't have to move much to follow the work). The owner of the last large privately owned farm I worked for bought a nice apartment complex in town and gave his workers the keys, no rent, after she saw the way most of them had been living before. Another one had his lawyer brother come help his workers out pro-bono on the weekends with their legal issues. As one of the minority of white English speakers breaking my back alongside them, I typically would spend my lunches and usually an hour or so after work each day tutoring/teaching ESL (not to mention that out in the field we would talk all day as we worked and I would keep the lessons going if they asked me to). I didn't have to do this, I just did because I wanted to help (and more importantly) and help was asked from me. I have worked on farms were the owners/managers offered ESL classes on nights and weekends for free. It's the owners of the mega corporate farms that tend to fall in line with the way you think about people screaming "racism" to keep things the way they are, but that doesn't mean they treat their workers badly in all cases all the time. And yes, money is the root reason. But it's the root reason we all do anything we do as a human whole, not just our industry. The ag industry is not a charity, we barely stay afloat as it is. Profit margins are slim since we can't charge much for the product in order to be competitive with over-seas produce (even with government help in that department). We typically go through 3 or 4 years of being in the red before we get a good year, and then it's back to barely scraping by again no matter how efficiently we use our resources.

Jeffff -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 8:11:28 AM)
RG, great posts but I am afraid you may find knowing what you are talking about is of very little benefit here.

tazzygirl -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 8:13:17 AM)
RG I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Its nice to get an inside look at how things really work.

RayvenGoddess -> RE: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions (8/10/2010 8:27:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff RG, great posts but I am afraid you may find knowing what you are talking about is of very little benefit here. Oh I know Jeffff, lol I was basically pointlessly venting (even though tazzy I'm glad I could share my perspective with you, you where a delight). Wanted to just put this side out in the aether. Sometimes when I talk, it feels like masturbation. It's really only making me feel better.

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