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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 7:54:28 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I don't see how who paid has any bearing on this at all.

If you pay you get things the way you want them?

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:02:01 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		If someone pays for my room it is not as if they invited themselves out to a restaurant with me knowing they had a deathly food allergy and ruined my good time... He obviously wanted to go with her.

So the story I was responding to (if you read it) was comparing this situation to one in which some random friend pushed her company on them and as a result had a food allergy problem. I do not see it as analogous to this situation. If you do, we differ

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:06:12 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I read it, I have read most of the thread. I understand her side, I may understand his side but he is not here.

If he had paid for the room would his reaction have been acceptable?

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:07:17 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		If someone won't treat me at least as well as my friends do, I certainly don't want to date them! I don't know that I'd break up over one time, but the conversation afterwards does sound like it would be a dealbreaker. With that said, I think I have a bit of a different take on him comparing it to her being drunk. If his father did come home drunk, and the symptoms of deep subspace appear similar to him, it could very well have been triggering for him. Since the OP hasn't gone that deeply before, it might not have been an issue.

AQSM, I go very deeply into subspace at times. I like getting coddled a bit, but can take care of myself, or find someone else to if we're at a public event. You've already said you're incompatible with people who need a lot of aftercare - nothing wrong with that, just neither I nor the OP would be a good match for you. That doesn't mean we're wrong or overly demanding, or that you're callous and inhumane, just incompatible.

Nephandi, the friends came in and talked with the OP's boyfriend/Top before leaving her there. She said that if he'd expressed any objections to taking care of her at the time, they would have been happy to do so.

CD, I'd seen other people go deeply into subspace, and heard about the effects, but it didn't have that visceral reality to me until I was experiencing it, even though I had been in a milder form of it before. The first time I actually felt submissive toward someone also felt completely different from bottoming, and threw me for a bit of a loop. Now that I know I can respond that way, I generally don't bottom to people unless I'm involved with them, especially men. Women don't tend to draw that reaction from me so far, but I can't rule it out either. I'm single right now, and I will discuss aftercare and subspace among many other things before entering another committed relationship. I can't always know all of the right questions to ask - sometimes something comes up that neither person can anticipate beforehand. I agree in that situation, I'd try to cut them some slack, and hope they did so for me. Saying that he doesn't want to be responsible for me, and behaving as the OP described, would wound me deeply and damage my trust in him.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:10:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I read it, I have read most of the thread. I understand her side, I may understand his side but he is not here.

If he had paid for the room would his reaction have been acceptable?


I think it would have been an analogous situation to the one I was responding to if she begged him to tag along, ignored him when he warned her against playing with others, and wasn't even involved at all with him as more than a casual sex partner. Since this was not the case I do not know what a pushy allergy prone friend has to do with this situation... the post I was responding to talked about how pushy the friend was and how they ignored all good advice..... since he was tagging along with her, and he never advised her not to play, and even told her how long to be gone so he could have fun in the room she paid for... yeah, I think it is a factor in his attitude that she put him out.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:14:08 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

If someone pays for my room it is not as if they invited themselves out to a restaurant with me knowing they had a deathly food allergy and ruined my good time... He obviously wanted to go with her.


So in your world if someone pay for your room then all notion of consent fall away? Since he paid for the room then  he had to take part in in her play, and aftercare is part of play, even if he wanted to or not? It could not be conceivable that he did not want to do any BDSM activity right then and there and therefore said no he would not go with her to play, because paying for the room, that is blanket consent to everything? Tell me do this I buy you something therefore I give my consent to everything you want to do extend beyond hotel rooms? Is it enough to buy someone dinner? Aswad bought me a fantasy book to day do that mean that he have consented to everything I might want to do? Is spending money on someone blanket consent?

quote:

So the story I was responding to (if you read it) was comparing this situation to one in which some random friend pushed her company on them and as a result had a food allergy problem. I do not see it as analogous to this situation. If you do, we differ


You see not connection between my story and someone who say come on let us go play and he say no, then she says okey but my friend her want to play with me, and he eventually says ok go do whatever you want. Then she comes home a mess and expect him to pick up the pieces? You see no connection at all? My dear either I am very bad at expressing myself or you might have a little problem with the organ you use to understand things with.

I wish you well


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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:14:26 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Really? You put specifically defined paramaters on friendships and relationships like that?

I don't care which one of us pays for the room, it's not appropriate for either of us to ever be insensitive to each other and I think the insensitivity was shared in this scenario.

It's funny how long this thread is and how many people are so focused on blame. It really makes me sad.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:18:16 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

AQSM, I go very deeply into subspace at times. I like getting coddled a bit, but can take care of myself, or find someone else to if we're at a public event. You've already said you're incompatible with people who need a lot of aftercare - nothing wrong with that, just neither I nor the OP would be a good match for you. That doesn't mean we're wrong or overly demanding, or that you're callous and inhumane, just incompatible.


I agree, it is an important conversation to have with a man before you need care. I have this conversation before I play in a way that will put me into subspace, mostly pain play does this to me. I am cautious with myself and I do not put myself in the hands of anyone that I have not talked about my needs with, and who has not agreed to provide care. Mostly I do not need a lot of it, but I have on occasion felt needy, and if I do not get that need met when I have it, it has led to me feeling down for a few days. It is really simple fix to stop that down feeling, and if someone can't do that for me when I would do anything for them, well they aren't compatible with me....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:23:44 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Really? You put specifically defined paramaters on friendships and relationships like that?

I don't care which one of us pays for the room, it's not appropriate for either of us to ever be insensitive to each other and I think the insensitivity was shared in this scenario.

It's funny how long this thread is and how many people are so focused on blame. It really makes me sad.


It completely makes me sad that people take a romantic relationship and equate it to someone with a food allergy begging to be included in an evening in a restaurant... I really think this concentrating on the fact I made the point she paid for the room when comparing the two stories of one person inviting herself and the other planning and paying for the trip is a bit much. I was highlighting how the stories differ...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:27:22 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

The difference then between you and the OP is that you talk it though, if someone then do not deliver the care they have promised then that is a break of trust. But the OP never talked it over with her boyfriend, she just assumed he would do it, and he probably assumed whoever she was playing with would do it. The problem here is not communicating clearly what one part is expecting and what the other part is willing to give.

Now I like I said do not agree with the boyfriend's way of handling the situation, it would have been better if he had given her the care she needed and then spoken with her about it later. However I do not think the blame is all on him as she should have communicated with him that she expected him, not her Top at the time but him to provide aftercare if needed, as if he had known that he might have said ok then I do not want you to play to day for I do not want to provide aftercare right now, or perhaps he would have said ok and prepared himself for giving such care. By not communicating she forced him into the situation and like many pepole when forced into a situation we do not like he reacted with anger.

I wish you well.


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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:32:54 PM   
laurell3


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Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I think overall relationships are such that we have to be forgiving and accepting of faults. I see a whole lot of but if's in this thread that are just a bit over the top ridiculous to me. People make mistakes, all of us.

In this scenario you have a guy that has repeatedly refused to be a dominant to this person. He's been traveling, stuggling emotionally, had some deaths in the family and has other obligations with other partners per their agreement. He is also ASLEEP at the time this event occurs and NEITHER of them seem to be aware the depth that subpace can have and it's effects.

You have a woman that believes in her boyfriend who has always been at her side and helpful. She has an expectation that will continue. She desires when she is not feeling well that he be the one to comfort her. She does recognize his emotional struggle but isn't really able to address it with him per his refusal. She acts with his permission. She has never had subspace to this extent and did not anticipate it. She did not communicate it with him because she did not anticipate it.

I don't see blame here, I see facts of what happened. Life happens. Shit happens. We recover and move on.

Many of you are trying to attach blame to these two people. I can't begin to imagine how dating would work for people that are so focused on blame and pointing fingers. I see shared miscommunciation and incorrect expectations on both of their parts. Fortunately the OP seems to be much more positive and willing to really attempt to work on addressing these issues and recognizes them much better than the majority of posters here. I wish them good luck

Who paid for the room is really incredibly irrelevant and a shallow reaction to the situation and facts in my opinion.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/13/2010 8:40:19 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:43:52 PM   
marie2


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Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Who paid for the room is really incredibly irrelevant and a shallow reaction to the situation and facts in my opinion.



Out of context, I would agree. But I think the point Julia was trying to make is that he wanted to be there; they went to this event together. It's not as if she tagged along with him, used him for a room to stay in, and then ditched him to run off to have her own good time.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:48:12 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah I do agree with that qualification and I wasn't addressing just julia by the way. The focus in the thread's responses to who paid for what is was what I was referring to and the propensity to say if these facts are true, but not these and so on. I just see this whole thing as unfortunate for both of them as are most arguments and conflicts in established relationships in my opinion.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 8:56:41 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Who paid for the room is really incredibly irrelevant and a shallow reaction to the situation and facts in my opinion.



Out of context, I would agree. But I think the point Julia was trying to make is that he wanted to be there; they went to this event together. It's not as if she tagged along with him, used him for a room to stay in, and then ditched him to run off to have her own good time.


Yes marie... thank you

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 9:02:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I agree she should try to address it with him. It was his reaction the next day that is more troubling than his reaction that night.

You know, my own jadedness is showing I suppose. I have been in the situation of sucking it up because of all this drama and trauma surrounding my significant other. It was always about him in our years together. He had either an illness, or a surgery, or his family was imploding, or this or that or the other. I am not saying that this person isn't going through a hard time, but at some point that can become an excuse to not be a partner to your lover and give support to them. It becomes one person giving and the other taking. Like I said, I am not saying this is what happened here, but my own personal struggles may color my opinion.

I hope they can communicate, hopefully she will tell us how it turns out.... I am one of the sorts of people that would love to be proven wrong, because that would mean love had triumphed in the end... but then I am a mushy person like that at times

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/13/2010 9:09:06 PM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I don't see how who paid has any bearing on this at all.
If you pay you get things the way you want them?

I was the one who initially brought this up, and I'm sorry I did. My only point with it was responding to NG's assertion that she was lucky to even get in the room.




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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/14/2010 1:26:09 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		hi op, four days later... how are things diddeling for you?
... have you made up and is he working on an orgasm in your other shoulder or has the whole thing become such a pain in the neck that you have decided to split?

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/14/2010 2:17:24 AM   
MsMillgrove


Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline 		Why did so many posters respond to the original post using the words sub and dom? Because the poster used the language of a sub. She wants her Boyfriend to act like her dom. You do not ask your boyfriend's "permission", you discuss arrangements with him and come to a mutual agreement. She indicates in a later post that she told him she hoped to be part of a d/s relationship with him down the road.

Having read every word in the thread, I suspect that the OP is realizing that her boyfriend is not a dom, doesn't want the respsonsibilities of being her master and her slow build towards the d/s dynamic she wants is going downhill fast.

Even tho this topic is about an aftercare incident and a subsequent discussion about that event, the bottom line is not about the actual incident, it's really about the realization that the boyfriend wants to be a boyfriend with multiple partners, engage occasionally in very light bdsm, doesn't favor a power exchange and is not interested in being her Dom or her master. He didn't sign up for that and she's been pushing him slowly in that direction...and the light is dawning--it's not going to happen.

I hate mysteries so it bugs me that we'll never hear his side. I suspect he felt that evening pushed his buttons on the non-consensual power exchange. She gives him power he doesn't want and expects intense support in return. Even if he can't articulate it, he explained his position clearly in the later discussion using the word "responsibility". I think his intention is: I am not your Dom or Master. Stop pushing me to be one.


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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/14/2010 3:27:26 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Ya know reading this entire thread makes me so even more so very very very glad that I am completely and strictly monogamous and I don't play at all with others in any way, shape or form. Waaayyy too much drama for me thanks!

Sticking with one and one only sure makes life a lot simpler. lol

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/14/2010 5:04:58 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Out of context, I would agree. But I think the point Julia was trying to make is that he wanted to be there; they went to this event together. It's not as if she tagged along with him, used him for a room to stay in, and then ditched him to run off to have her own good time.


So if someone wanted to be there in the first place, is that a blanket consent to attend the activities? Let us look at this differently, let us say a man and a women go to a party hotel to get drunk, he pay for the hotel. Now once there for whatever reason the man says, you know what, I do not want to get drunk tonight. The woman says ok, but can I go out and party with my friends and the man says ok. Some hours later the woman comes home drunk as a skunk and demand that her man take care of her, get her to bed, cuddle her and then he is a bad guy for being annoyed over it even if he said he did NOT want to go partying that night because he had paid for the room? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

What if the situation was turned on it's head and it was a lovers suit that she had paid for, but once there she decided she did not want sex and got annoyed when he constantly tried to get it. I mean she should be obligated to fuck him after all she paid for the room, is that what you are saying? Consent can never be taken back? Once money have changed hands you have to be game for whatever the trip was originally intended for?

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 200
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