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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 1:34:36 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Oh, I WILL decide what I want, and she will be molded to comply to that. I already have a pretty good template as to what I want from a Subbie, although I don't YET have much of a roadmap to instill all of it (but that's what the 'Ask a Master' section is for!), I will devise a series of obedience exercises. As an inexperienced Dom myself It may simply take longer, or the path less smooth, but she'll get that I'm the boss, she does what I say, and she'll be delighted with it. Trust me on it.

But at some point, purely as icing on the cake, I WILL be asking her, "Darling, think about this question, and it's NOT a trick question; what aspects about how I rule you do you think could be improved? Ie, more spankings? More orders in public? Less questions like this asking what you want? etc. Think about it and let me know"

Now, just as I would have to make more effort to mold a girl who had not yet considered subhood, than one who did, I would have thought that the converse was also true, ie that a girl who gave ACTIVE thought to being a sub/slave would also have considered the possibility she would need to guide a brand new Dom on how to be more dominant.




Many people get caught up in the stereotype. It's still a woman and you're still a man. Your ability to have power over her is still based on her allowing that. When you approach women you don't know, I would keep that in mind. You are not yet her dominant, until she says you are.

Being a dominant doesn't change who you are. I'm not sure what being more dominant really means. Be who you are and find someone that likes that. Agree to the parameters of how much control you will have WITH HER, listen to her limits, likes, dislikes and go from there. And yes, definitely have that conversation and realize that there are always two people in the equation if even one is driving the bus.

and btw, I would refrain from using the term "subbie" too often.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 1:47:17 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
I don't believe you choose what to be. I believe you discover what you are.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs... even if they fly in the face of the entire human experience. For me personally, I've trained a few too many leaders to buy into the idea that you cannot train dominance. For most of those, I had to train them to be more assertive, more confident, more willing to take personal risks, more willing to stand and be counted, etc. etc.

Most people can learn most things at least passably well in my experience. Humans, as a species, are nothing if not adaptable.


I may be misunderstanding you, but I have to agree with Jeffff and not because I adore him, but because I do see these things as two different things. I learned in the professional world how to lead. I had a learning curve on how to successfully manipulate situations in order to achieve the outcomes I desired. I learned that while emotions can be a tool, they are not all that relevant to my success in the professional world.

I would be appalled and find it superficial, shallow, ridiculous and insulting if someone attempted to use those same tools with me in a relationship to assert control. We don't have a model, use manipulation or try to be anything other than what we are and emotion is incredibly relevant. I've never been in a relationship where I expected that of anyone. I wouldn't follow someone that did that. I follow because I choose to and not because someone else employs some model or tool. I choose to because of who they are.

Honestly, I really do believe that being who you are and being honest carries so much more weight than any attempt to be anything. This isn't buying a car, it's an intimate relationship with someone that is trusting you with their safety and well-being.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 1:53:18 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Ahhhh...

I view it differently. I see it as the same thing, but in different spheres -- a different application of the same base tools.

EDITED TO ADD:
So then more specifically, I am certain I could train most people to do what I do with Carol to some reasonable quality level. Whether what I do is "dominance" or not is certainly open to anyone's individual interpretation of "dominance".


I am not saying you could not teach someone to do what you do with Carol.

From your posts your relationship wirh Carol is deeply emotional. Leadership in the work place is much less emotional. You are teaching skills and giving people tools they can use to lead others.
The point I may be making is that you can't teach them to feel what you feel with Carol.

It seems to me it is similar to learning a language phonetically. it will sound correct even if you have no idea what you are saying.



_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 1:59:42 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		My last boyfriend said I "created" his dominance and I have to completely disagree.

At one time, I thought I was helping him to express his innate dominance in our relationship, but soon discovered that I had only succeeded in letting him bring out what was already there to begin with, a top with sadistic leanings.

Which was not what I wanted, in the end. It took years for me to realize he would never learn the nature of power exchange and how that could be woven into a wonderful relationship. He never actually got past the physical and mental expressions of dominance and never understood the psychological underpinnings that for me, are key for someone to understand about me.

So while he thinks he was and will always be my Master, he never really was. Just a great top.

Now my husband was totally vanilla and I REALLY tried to make him Dominant because he was such a great guy and we got along wonderfully. But, nope, he was not that type and you cannot turn someone even if they are willing.

So I think you might be able to turn a willing guy into a Master, but everything has to work well between the both of you for it to work.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 8/11/2010 2:00:39 PM >

(in reply to laurell3)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 2:20:53 PM   
leadership527


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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
From your posts your relationship wirh Carol is deeply emotional. Leadership in the work place is much less emotional. You are teaching skills and giving people tools they can use to lead others. The point I may be making is that you can't teach them to feel what you feel with Carol.

At this point, we may need to agree to disagree (which is, of course, fine). You and I do not see either dominance or leadership even remotely similarly and so it's probably pointless to debate whether they are the same or not. What I do with Carol is no different (other than degree) than what I did at work. That I can say as a factual statement. But I cannot say whether what I do at home is dominance or what I did at work is leadership TO YOU.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 2:23:35 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		Ok, I can accept that.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 3:56:19 PM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

As I mentioned in another question, I imagine there's a minimum standard of 'Masterfulness' that a potential partner must meet in advance.


I believe opinions differ on what that entails. Some want experience in D/s relationships, others are open to novices, and even fewer draw a different association altogether. I fall in the latter category. I believe one applies concepts of leaderships to personal relationships that have been acquired and honed outside of them. But that's my personal bias.

quote:

I also imagine there are times, with some of you, where you test your Master, he let's it slide and then you say, "You don't ever have to take that from me, you know. It's ok to put me in my place, hard". Furthermore, there are proaably those amongst you who feel that it is absolutlely none of your business, as a subbie/slave, to give your Master any form of guidance.


Most leaders have experienced challenges to authority and also recognize the importance of utilizing their resources to the fullest capacity. Of course the latter is hugely determined by the individual's ability to recognize where he's lacking and a willingness to accept information from the submissive party if she's in possession of such. Some people have difficulty doing that.

quote:

But if, say, you fell in love with a vanilla feller, and he was willing to become a Dom, do you think you would you be a good teacher? Or even a willing one?


In my opinion it's important for the dominant to be able to substantiate why the individual would wish to follow them. In essence what makes their vision better than the one the person would generate on their own. When I address a prospect I can provide them with tangible experiences that illustrate why I'm good at what I do and why someone else placed me in a position of authority. I can speak of the lessons and challenges succinctly and give detailed descriptions of how problems were offset and mediated with success. For some that is not a requirement, however, I believe that those in an advisory position should be capable of doing that. Resting upon the notion that I can lead without ever having done such is not feasible in my mind. However, it works well for others. Viva la difference!

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 3:59:50 PM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

At this point, we may need to agree to disagree (which is, of course, fine). You and I do not see either dominance or leadership even remotely similarly and so it's probably pointless to debate whether they are the same or not. What I do with Carol is no different (other than degree) than what I did at work. That I can say as a factual statement. But I cannot say whether what I do at home is dominance or what I did at work is leadership TO YOU.


And it should be noted that some dominants employ a managerial styled form of leadership with their slave. It would include many of the tools you'd find in the workplace and they've indicated that the system works well for them.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 4:33:32 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		I have done this in the past.  It takes patience and maturity and shared goals.

It would be worth it for the right person.  Of course, you always think it's the 'right person' when you start to invest so much energy in it.  There's a 50/50 chance you're right.


_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to laurell3)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 5:16:17 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Oh, I WILL decide what I want, and she will be molded to comply to that. I already have a pretty good template as to what I want from a Subbie, although I don't YET have much of a roadmap to instill all of it (but that's what the 'Ask a Master' section is for!), I will devise a series of obedience exercises. As an inexperienced Dom myself It may simply take longer, or the path less smooth, but she'll get that I'm the boss, she does what I say, and she'll be delighted with it. Trust me on it.



This paragraph, and in particular the highlighted wording, gives me the impression that you are focused more on control than on leadership.  You want to control her, instead of inspiring her to follow you.  Instead of molding her to comply, how about inspiring her to please you.

quote:

But at some point, purely as icing on the cake, I WILL be asking her, "Darling, think about this question, and it's NOT a trick question; what aspects about how I rule you do you think could be improved? Ie, more spankings? More orders in public? Less questions like this asking what you want? etc. Think about it and let me know"


There's that control again... "how I rule".  I would think paying more attention to her reactions would gain you much better results.  If nothing else, definitely reword the question, drop the "how can I improve" thing.  Perhaps, "if you could have more of one thing from me, what would it be?" and also, "if you could have less of one thing from me, what would it be?" 

Oh, and kill the "subbie" and "subhood" thing.  Seriously.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 8:07:04 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ideally I think all human beings should endeavor to learn from their relationships. I would WANT my partner to learn from me, no matter how much experience he has. He may have dominated other women, but he has never dominated me, and that makes it a learning experience for both of us.

I date people, not roles, if fell for a vanilla man that wanted to try this out, I would go there.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 8:11:10 PM   
tiggerspoohbear


Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Oh, I WILL decide what I want, and she will be molded to comply to that.
I'm sure you will, and molded? what is she? jello?

I already have a pretty good template as to what I want from a Subbie,
What? You've been working with Word too much lately?

although I don't YET have much of a roadmap to instill all of it (but that's what the 'Ask a Master' section is for!),
I will devise a series of obedience exercises. As an inexperienced Dom myself It may simply take longer, or the path less smooth,
Obedience exercises? Now she's a dog to be trained?

but she'll get that I'm the boss, she does what I say, and she'll be delighted with it. Trust me on it.
She may get that "you're the boss" but trust you? OOOO boy, that, my friend, takes time and you'll both be delighted with the outcome, not just you.  That's if you want her to stay with you, a happy sub makes for a happy Dom makes for a happy sub"

But at some point, purely as icing on the cake, I WILL be asking her, "Darling, think about this question, and it's NOT a trick question; what aspects about how I rule you do you think could be improved? Ie, more spankings? More orders in public? Less questions like this asking what you want? etc. Think about it and let me know"
Learn first, then do, give her a chance to truly express herself not in fear of saying something she thinks you want to hear, but what she really has to say.  Works much better that way.  And you may be the Dom but you also want to satisfy her needs and wants, it's a two way street.  Take this from someone who's been with a Dom who ruled with fear, and it didn't turn out well at all, not in the least, no way, no how NUH UH. 


Now, just as I would have to make more effort to mold a girl who had not yet considered subhood,
subhood? is that like nunhood? don't start making up new words to confuse some of the others who already have no clue. 


Ok, so I'm really picky tonight, but you have already admitted to no experience, so take everything that everyone has said, and make sense of it for yourself.  Don't take on more than you can chew, the hand that feeds is sometimes bitten.  Yeah, yeah, mixed metaphors, but yanno what i mean dontcha? 

_____________________________

"RABBIT IS GOOD, RABBIT IS WISE".

"I'm a baaa-aaad pussycat".


(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 8:48:42 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		If a man is innately dominant, he can have that dominance unloosed by a submissive who is willing to help him do that. If he is not and doesn't really want to lead, control, and have authority over a submissive, then he won't no matter how much she tries. He could learn to be a decent Top, if he's interested but that's different from a dominant IMO.

I helped Santa unloose his beast. He learned to enjoy being wholely himself.

_____________________________

"cooking is my kink"

Collared June 19, 2008
(uncollared 12/21/09 with his death. RIP my Santa)

(in reply to tiggerspoohbear)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 9:01:27 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		I'm not one of these people who believes that someone is born "alpha" or been "dom all their lives".

I think it's an individual interaction between two specific people who respond to each other as dominant and submissive.

There are certain men who I'd eat for lunch and spit out the bones, while subsusie might feel intimidated by him and compliant to him. And vice versa.

Therefore, I wouldn't be able to guide or teach someone to be the dom or master of me. A man will either having me feeling submissive to him (depending on our particular chemistry) or he won't.

(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 9:14:35 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Part of what makes D/s exciting for me is the process by which a dominant learns about what makes me tick and how to push my buttons and manipulate me within my environment to achieve the desired result.  It can not be forced or automatically happen, there has to be some chemistry and spark and ability on his part to know how to get into my head.  At that point I am pliable and ache to submit.  I do not know how to teach a dominant how to do this.  And some vanilla men can also have this effect on me, although beyond interaction with them and a certain level of mutual chemistry, I do not understand it enough to teach it.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/11/2010 9:17:32 PM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		*FR

If a 'vanilla' man had the interest and inclination, i would not 'teach' him how to be dominant, I would help him explore and discover what he likes and what he doesn't. I could teach him how to spank, how to tie, how to perform technical skills. I can not teach him a personality trait, he either has that sort of sexual orientation or doesn't.

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/12/2010 12:05:06 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I see a difference between leadership and dominance,

It is almost cliché how many "people who are "powerful" in their jobs wish to be dominated in their personal/sexual lives.




I absolutely agree with this. I have leadership skills aplenty, but I am not a dominant.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/12/2010 1:34:12 AM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
I see a difference between leadership and dominance,
It is almost cliché how many "people who are "powerful" in their jobs wish to be dominated in their personal/sexual lives.


I absolutely agree with this. I have leadership skills aplenty, but I am not a dominant.




Opposite.

But when people talk of leadership, they are generally referring to only specific types of leadership of a beaurocratic nature.

When I have to lead for example, I do it by keeping people happy and inspired.

I've read that I only make a good leader if you need a revolutionary or a politician. Luckily, I'm quite handy at delivering emotional speeches.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 8/12/2010 1:53:09 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/12/2010 2:19:02 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		When my Husband and i got together we were just 'normal' maybe a bit kinky, He was always a bit dominant and i was mostly submissive but we did not dwell a lot on any of this we were like any other 'normal' couple

... after a decade our marriage got totally stale and dreadfully boring and eventhough we got on ok and seemed fine on the outside we both were totally dissatisfied and mostly sexless, how naf... i concidered cheating

But rather than finding another man, who might turn out boring eventually aswell, i thought maybe i should pull myself together and work with what i've got...

i am still working on it.... it is a lot of fun (mostly)... for both of us (usually)


(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Could/would you teach a willing man to be a Master? - 8/12/2010 3:10:51 AM   
Jaybeee


Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Oh, I WILL decide what I want, and she will be molded to comply to that. I already have a pretty good template as to what I want from a Subbie, although I don't YET have much of a roadmap to instill all of it (but that's what the 'Ask a Master' section is for!), I will devise a series of obedience exercises. As an inexperienced Dom myself It may simply take longer, or the path less smooth, but she'll get that I'm the boss, she does what I say, and she'll be delighted with it. Trust me on it.

But at some point, purely as icing on the cake, I WILL be asking her, "Darling, think about this question, and it's NOT a trick question; what aspects about how I rule you do you think could be improved? Ie, more spankings? More orders in public? Less questions like this asking what you want? etc. Think about it and let me know"

Now, just as I would have to make more effort to mold a girl who had not yet considered subhood, than one who did, I would have thought that the converse was also true, ie that a girl who gave ACTIVE thought to being a sub/slave would also have considered the possibility she would need to guide a brand new Dom on how to be more dominant.




Many people get caught up in the stereotype. It's still a woman and you're still a man. Your ability to have power over her is still based on her allowing that. When you approach women you don't know, I would keep that in mind. You are not yet her dominant, until she says you are.


You're saying that women check a man for kindness, goodness etc before dominance. Yes, that's a given, always was, and it's true the other way too, although somewhat later along the relationship - no matter how good looking or intelligent, if she's a royal bitch in general, she'll be out of my life so fast she'll get a speeding ticket without being behind a wheel.

quote:

Being a dominant doesn't change who you are. I'm not sure what being more dominant really means. Be who you are and find someone that likes that. Agree to the parameters of how much control you will have WITH HER, listen to her limits, likes, dislikes and go from there. And yes, definitely have that conversation and realize that there are always two people in the equation if even one is driving the bus.


All good advice, but again you seem to be under the impression I didn't know all of this. Let me see if I can clarify; I have to DESERVE to be her Dom/Master/whatever: that means she'd serve me happily because I've made her feel loved, cherished, protected, provided for etc. If anything Laurell, my difficulties with being a Dom would stem from me being TOO soft-hearted with her. I know me, though I'd be the one giving the orders she'd know damn well I needed her as much, or likely MORE than she needed me, and she'd know that from shedloads of intimate conversations, heart-to-hearts, and a lot of tears, both the sad and the happy kinds - and not all of them are gonna be hers.

Shit...I just read that twice, I can't believe I just wrote such a personal bunch of stuff to strangers, but I'll stick with it in that 'Publish and be damned' ethos.

Anyway, going back to topic, yes, I'll be driving the bus. Great...she gets to gawp at the scenery while I go back and forth hauling passengers between bus stations. In this heat.



quote:

and btw, I would refrain from using the term "subbie" too often.


Sorry, carry-over from my previous career when I hired sub-contractors on projects.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 40
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