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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 8:47:38 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

. She consents to being a hoarder




People don't consent to mental illness. Spare me the poppycock you smoke to convince yourself you're not a shitty mom.



Wow harsh much? She's actually right. No, people don't ask for mental illness, but yes, they can continue and consent to it if they do nothing to attempt to get help for themselves. The fact that littlewonder recognizes this doesn't come remotely close to making her a shitty mother.


I've just explained my position that choosing not to fight should not be treated like consent. People don't ask for it initially, but then they actively choose it every day? Hoarding and OCD are due to fucked up wiring that can never be truly fixed, only managed. I get that it's frustrating to watch people resign themselves to their suffering. I'm just pretty damn sure that telling them "you are choosing your suffering everyday!" doesn't make anything happen any faster.

(in reply to laurell3)
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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 8:53:56 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I've just explained my position that choosing not to fight should not be treated like consent. People don't ask for it initially, but then they actively choose it every day? Hoarding and OCD are due to fucked up wiring that can never be truly fixed, only managed. I get that it's frustrating to watch people resign themselves to their suffering. I'm just pretty damn sure that telling them "you are choosing your suffering everyday!" doesn't make anything happen any faster.


That suffering can be greatly reduced by a willingness to deal head on with anxiety. It is REALLY hard, believe me, I know from personal experience what desensitization feels like, but it can be done. I have reduced my anxiety greatly by consciously changing how I think about the world, and I feel this is a permanent change, so don't underestimate the ability of people suffering from anxiety the ability to overcome it, we can and do every day

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 8:57:38 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The fact that littlewonder recognizes this doesn't come remotely close to making her a shitty mother.


Just like my mom isn't a shitty mother because I have a phobia...

It is a bit like saying that if your kid has an issue that the mother is responsible for it, and that just isn't so... mommy blame is so turn of the 19th century Freud


Nothing I wrote suggested that she is responsible for her daughter's condition. And I guess I'm the only one picking up on the hostility towards her daughter in her comments throughout this thread.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 9:06:36 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
so don't underestimate the ability of people suffering from anxiety the ability to overcome it, we can and do every day


and the next day, and the day after that, and then maybe you get a few days off, then oh wait, it's back. It can be managed, it cannot be cured. I'm not suggesting that's an excuse not to fight it at all. I hope for your sake that your change is permanent. But I've got plenty of family history that suggests that all progress must be fiercely defended. It never really stops. If that sounds too depressing, well, I don't think it's nearly as depressing as "you'd be all better if you just tried harder or wanted it more!"

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 9:14:56 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

and the next day, and the day after that, and then maybe you get a few days off, then oh wait, it's back. It can be managed, it cannot be cured. I'm not suggesting that's an excuse not to fight it at all. I hope for your sake that your change is permanent. But I've got plenty of family history that suggests that all progress must be fiercely defended. It never really stops. If that sounds too depressing, well, I don't think it's nearly as depressing as "you'd be all better if you just tried harder or wanted it more!"


I went over a year without a panic attack, even through the break up of a significant relationship. I moved twice in 6 months, all while going to grad school. What you are doing is minimizing the gains that people like me have without medication through meditation, exercise and a willingness to look at the world through different eyes...

I had a panic attack last spring, the first one I had in over a year, and it was because I allowed an old tape to play in my mind... and then I realized what I had done and renewed my determination to go at least another year before having another attack. I would say that is pretty manageable. I am not looking for cures, I am looking for a happy, productive and meaningful life...Saying there is "no cure" like it isn't manageable and like people with this issue can never have a happy, mostly carefree life.... I reject that, and as someone who has all but conquered that demon, I feel qualified to say "poppycock" to pitying and making excuses for people with this issue.

If you like feel free to search for "ptsd" or "anxiety" and my screen name to see how far I have come in the last few years... tremendously far.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Lucienne)
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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 9:26:40 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Hoarding stuff.. hoarding multitudes of kids, it's all the same deal to me, freakdom.  People like to watch so they can think "I'm not that bad"
People watch because it validates them.
People will continue to watch because there are not many other choices.

I don't watch.  I also don't read the enquirer, the star, ect.  I don't buy magazines that promote size 0 bodies as the ideal.... so I don't buy magazines.  If there were a clique I could form it would be one that refuses to promote junk-lite as a life message. 

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 9:32:02 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Hoarding stuff.. hoarding multitudes of kids, it's all the same deal to me, freakdom.  People like to watch so they can think "I'm not that bad"
People watch because it validates them.
People will continue to watch because there are not many other choices.

I don't watch.  I also don't read the enquirer, the star, ect.  I don't buy magazines that promote size 0 bodies as the ideal.... so I don't buy magazines.  If there were a clique I could form it would be one that refuses to promote junk-lite as a life message. 


You don't need to watch these shows to feel superior, it is already evident by not watching them you receive the same sort of feeling.... Kudos!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 10:04:49 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

and the next day, and the day after that, and then maybe you get a few days off, then oh wait, it's back. It can be managed, it cannot be cured. I'm not suggesting that's an excuse not to fight it at all. I hope for your sake that your change is permanent. But I've got plenty of family history that suggests that all progress must be fiercely defended. It never really stops. If that sounds too depressing, well, I don't think it's nearly as depressing as "you'd be all better if you just tried harder or wanted it more!"


I went over a year without a panic attack, even through the break up of a significant relationship. I moved twice in 6 months, all while going to grad school. What you are doing is minimizing the gains that people like me have without medication through meditation, exercise and a willingness to look at the world through different eyes...

I had a panic attack last spring, the first one I had in over a year, and it was because I allowed an old tape to play in my mind... and then I realized what I had done and renewed my determination to go at least another year before having another attack. I would say that is pretty manageable. I am not looking for cures, I am looking for a happy, productive and meaningful life...Saying there is "no cure" like it isn't manageable and like people with this issue can never have a happy, mostly carefree life.... I reject that, and as someone who has all but conquered that demon, I feel qualified to say "poppycock" to pitying and making excuses for people with this issue.

If you like feel free to search for "ptsd" or "anxiety" and my screen name to see how far I have come in the last few years... tremendously far.


I feel like we're passing each other doing cartwheels here, mostly doing the same thing and occasionally having our legs collide. There's nothing about my position (one doesn't consent to mental illness) that requires demeaning your efforts. Nothing at all. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Nor do I understand how you can interpret "It can be managed, it cannot be cured." as meaning "Saying there is "no cure" like it isn't manageable." I explicitly said it was manageable. I applaud your management efforts. I don't care how they are achieved as long as you feel better and more in control. I don't need to search the archives for your story, I believe you. And I'm intimately aware of just how far one can go in dealing with issues like this. I'm happy for you, but I don't need your example to define for me the realm of the possible. I don't think I've pitied or made excuses. I've stated the facts as I understand them. If you motivate yourself by telling yourself that every day you don't fight is a day you are "consenting" to your condition - fabulous. I just don't think that's been shown to be a good way of motivating others. 

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 10:15:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I feel "cured" for the most part. Everyone has anxiety from time to time... it is normal.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/16/2010 10:56:23 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Considering television promotes burgeoning criminals for their cuteness, addicts for their pathos, people for their skills in procreation, chefs who make their point by berating contestants, groups that take pleasure in backstabbing their fellow roommates while laying them, I don't think it was much of a jump.
People watch it, or there would not be threads asking why they do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Hoarding stuff.. hoarding multitudes of kids, it's all the same deal to me, freakdom.  People like to watch so they can think "I'm not that bad"
People watch because it validates them.
People will continue to watch because there are not many other choices.

I don't watch.  I also don't read the enquirer, the star, ect.  I don't buy magazines that promote size 0 bodies as the ideal.... so I don't buy magazines.  If there were a clique I could form it would be one that refuses to promote junk-lite as a life message. 


You don't need to watch these shows to feel superior, it is already evident by not watching them you receive the same sort of feeling.... Kudos!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 4:04:39 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

and the next day, and the day after that, and then maybe you get a few days off, then oh wait, it's back. It can be managed, it cannot be cured. I'm not suggesting that's an excuse not to fight it at all. I hope for your sake that your change is permanent. But I've got plenty of family history that suggests that all progress must be fiercely defended. It never really stops. If that sounds too depressing, well, I don't think it's nearly as depressing as "you'd be all better if you just tried harder or wanted it more!"


I went over a year without a panic attack, even through the break up of a significant relationship. I moved twice in 6 months, all while going to grad school. What you are doing is minimizing the gains that people like me have without medication through meditation, exercise and a willingness to look at the world through different eyes...

I had a panic attack last spring, the first one I had in over a year, and it was because I allowed an old tape to play in my mind... and then I realized what I had done and renewed my determination to go at least another year before having another attack. I would say that is pretty manageable. I am not looking for cures, I am looking for a happy, productive and meaningful life...Saying there is "no cure" like it isn't manageable and like people with this issue can never have a happy, mostly carefree life.... I reject that, and as someone who has all but conquered that demon, I feel qualified to say "poppycock" to pitying and making excuses for people with this issue.

If you like feel free to search for "ptsd" or "anxiety" and my screen name to see how far I have come in the last few years... tremendously far.


I am with you on the ptsd front for I have it too, so anxiety is common to me. As to what caused it, well initially it was a particularly vicious attempted murder and that because my failure to recognise ill meaning people and take the necessary precautions. The ptsd has also been attributed to my past marriage and my military career, so a combination of things. I feel most of it has gone now, or is it, it just lies dormant for the next time, to that I wonder, as modern like situations tend to result in flash backs and sometimes irrational episodes to the point I actively avoid certain situations now as it is just not worth the anguish.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 4:29:49 AM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Considering television promotes burgeoning criminals for their cuteness, addicts for their pathos, people for their skills in procreation, chefs who make their point by berating contestants, groups that take pleasure in backstabbing their fellow roommates while laying them, I don't think it was much of a jump.
People watch it, or there would not be threads asking why they do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Hoarding stuff.. hoarding multitudes of kids, it's all the same deal to me, freakdom.  People like to watch so they can think "I'm not that bad"
People watch because it validates them.
People will continue to watch because there are not many other choices.

I don't watch.  I also don't read the enquirer, the star, ect.  I don't buy magazines that promote size 0 bodies as the ideal.... so I don't buy magazines.  If there were a clique I could form it would be one that refuses to promote junk-lite as a life message. 


You don't need to watch these shows to feel superior, it is already evident by not watching them you receive the same sort of feeling.... Kudos!




I do feel superior, aka like a better person, (just not necessarily in measure to any one person....) for not being a party to the exploitation of people that are suffering an illness. Especially not under the guise of learning more about that illness.

_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 4:48:35 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I've only seen bits and pieces of the shows...I'm not a big TV person. I've been in a few homes over time where the occupants have obviously had some issue with this. I've also seen the opposite. I have a girlfriend who keeps her home in such a way that if you were to walk in you would think that no one lives there. There is not one single knick knack, no paintings on the wall, no magazines on the coffee table, every room is some shade of white...walls, carpets, furniture. I couldn't live like that either, it feels cold to me. I'm sure that when she comes to my house she probably thinks it's cluttered because my home has many things around to look at. Heck, maybe she sees me as a hoarder...LOL.

I love chocolate chip cookies and I suppose I COULD be a hoarder....if they just didn't taste so damn good!

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 7:39:28 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I do feel superior, aka like a better person, (just not necessarily in measure to any one person....) for not being a party to the exploitation of people that are suffering an illness. Especially not under the guise of learning more about that illness.


I suppose as someone with a diagnosed anxiety disorder, your feeling of superiority just doesn't mean much to me..

I find the older I get, the more outmoded feeling superior to others is in my life

Just me, etc

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 7:40:33 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I love chocolate chip cookies and I suppose I COULD be a hoarder....if they just didn't taste so damn good


I hoard those in my stomach....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 9:47:56 AM   
SeanPony


Posts: 169
Joined: 7/6/2007
Status: offline 		I hoard all kinds of metal and computer parts for later use in sculptures and projects.

It's real easy for it to get out of control if you let it.

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 4:28:58 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		so I read the rest of the thread after my post about how my daughter consents to doing nothing. I asked her about it tonight and yeah..even she agrees with me. She chooses not to do anything about it because in her opinion it's just easier to ignore the problem even though she knows that's not true. She knows. She's aware and she chooses what she does about her mental illness.

We even talked about how the mental hospital she was in for a time gave up on her because she's as stubborn as a mule and she refused to do anything at all...from taking the meds, to participating in her therapy to continuing to listen to anything at all they said to her or doing everything possible they could do for her.

She's fully aware and extremely intelligent but stubborn as hell!

If I'm a shitty mother for thinking the way I do about her mental illness and her choices she makes then so be it. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that and surely won't be the last. lol.


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/17/2010 4:43:03 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

. She consents to being a hoarder




People don't consent to mental illness. Spare me the poppycock you smoke to convince yourself you're not a shitty mom.

Well, just bless your little heart Lucienne...

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yep

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 8:11:55 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus



Shows that display the compulsive horror of being surrounded by GARBAGE and being unable to throw it out? How can a person have anything but sympathy for someone so afflicted? That kind of ailment is a deep seated thing, and they are not being helped by being displayed on television.
I have not read beyond the second page of this thread, and i have never watched this TV show...and have no intention of doing so.

I have selective sympathy for these people. Selective because there are some who do not care what damage they are causing to others. Help is certainly available to them for what can only be considered a mental disorder, but they refuse to get the therapy they need.

I was raised by such a person, and i am one of the "damaged" byproducts. From the time i started the first grade i knew a HUGE level of embarrassment if someone came to her house. I was a pretty lonely little kid, because i would never have my friends over after school, on weekends or through the summer, nor would i go to the homes of friends because even at that young age i knew reciprocating was not possible.

I was perhaps 6 or 7 years old when i started to do my best to make things at least somewhat presentable. Loneliness is a compelling motivator.  Despite my best efforts, there was hell raised because i never did it right. I threw out something such as an old stack of newspapers that she might have needed for something, or i cleaned bags and bags of rotten food out of the refrigerator and "You stupid jackass....you should have turned the refrigerator OFF before you cleaned it!!" There was never praise for at least trying. One time i washed all the walls in the living room. It took all day and i was so proud of myself!!! When she saw what i had done she screamed herself purple because i washed them with a "good" hand towel.

My dad had long ago given up. He was the only dad i ever knew that did any housework, even though he worked and she did not. He eventually moved out and i don't blame him  I gave up as well after awhile. There was no talking to her, no reasoning with her, and if i complained, i was told to find another place to live. If a situation presented where she knew someone was to come to her home, i was given holy hell for being such a slob and ordered to clean her house. In case anyone thinks it was in anyway possible that i do so, it was not. The best i could ever do was create a pathway to the sofa and clear a little sitting room. When the expected guest would arrive, she would apologize for the condition of her house by saying "G*d-damn kids..."

Help was out there for her but she did not think she needed it. One good indicator would have been to look at her kid....but ..enough said.

So...the kids raised in that type of an environment grow to adulthood, and guess what??? The damage remains and requires a daily struggle to heal. Personally...i am a neat freak in a lot of ways. I keep a home that is warm and comfortable to everyone but me. I cannot really relax here, or anywhere for that matter. I am constantly on guard for a mess, for one stupid thing to be out of place. The vacuum is run generally twice a day, but always at least once. I will not leave my home unless it is spotless because i refuse to return to a dirty house.
I can go on and on about how quirky i am...and these are the quirks that i permit myself to have. The quirks i fight/disallow are things i do not have the time to list.

Yes, my mother has issues that she refused to see and get help for. She did not believe in the study of Psychiatry (and my Masters in Psych was one way of flipping her off). I do have an understanding of the mental conditions that cause one to hoard. But i draw the line when they permit their obsession to so deeply affect those they profess to care for.

Forgive my rant...it is over. I now must go and run the vacuum.

And Mom...if you are somehow able to read this...i am very close to hating you right now. As a parent myself...that is the worst thing i could ever hear my child say to me. Now Mom...was the hoarding worth it?

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 8/18/2010 8:20:04 AM >

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 8:24:15 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Holly, you are one cool lady.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 80
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