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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 8:25:47 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

. She consents to being a hoarder




People don't consent to mental illness. Spare me the poppycock you smoke to convince yourself you're not a shitty mom.

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucienne..this is not fair to LittleWonder in any way. Her daughter did not consent to having a mental illness, that is true. However, a mental illness does not negate the responsibility of seeking the needed help.

Nor is a mental illness, no matter how it presents itself, necessarily the fault of the parent. That is harmful, hurtful and archaic thinking on your part.


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 8:31:37 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne



Nothing I wrote suggested that she is responsible for her daughter's condition.

Uh....yoohoo.....read the following, wouldyahuyh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne


People don't consent to mental illness. Spare me the poppycock you smoke to convince yourself you're not a shitty mom.




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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 8:36:21 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Holly, you are one cool lady.
Thanks LaT.....but pot meets kettle!!!


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 11:50:37 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

. She consents to being a hoarder




People don't consent to mental illness. Spare me the poppycock you smoke to convince yourself you're not a shitty mom.

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucienne..this is not fair to LittleWonder in any way. Her daughter did not consent to having a mental illness, that is true. However, a mental illness does not negate the responsibility of seeking the needed help.

Nor is a mental illness, no matter how it presents itself, necessarily the fault of the parent. That is harmful, hurtful and archaic thinking on your part.



I can see how others might read my words as suggesting it's her fault her daughter is ill. The way you get to that conclusion is if you have harmful, hurtful and archaic thinking within reaching distance. It may only be within reaching distance because you see it displayed in others. But if you're like me... well, yes, it's such archaic thinking it was the farthest thing from my mind. I don't encounter people who say things like that, and it's an irrational thing to believe, so it didn't occur to me as a possible interpretation of what I said. LittleWonder made statements throughout this thread suggesting her frustration and disgust with people with this condition in general and her daughter in particular. I explained that I saw hostility in her statements. Her comments struck me as writing her daughter off. That's the shitty mom part. That's my perception. I don't think that she caused her daughter's illness or that she's responsible for fixing it. I'm just saying under my definition of "good mom" you don't get on the internet and rag on your mentally ill daughter like that.

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 12:09:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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I think calling someone a shitty mother on a message board is below the belt... You do not know anyone here in real life. You do not know how much a parent has tolerated, has given, has had to endure with a child to get the point where they get fed up enough to throw up their hands... and this is an ADULT child, not a wee one. I can tell you, I have seen parents that were well justified writing their kids off until their kids could get their shit together. Coddling people with certain issues isn't always the right thing to do

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 12:32:51 PM   
LaTigresse


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On this we agree!

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 2:19:20 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think calling someone a shitty mother on a message board is below the belt...


It's not a kind thing to say, I'll own that. I think disparaging your mentally ill daughter on a message board is also unkind.

quote:

You do not know anyone here in real life. You do not know how much a parent has tolerated, has given, has had to endure with a child to get the point where they get fed up enough to throw up their hands... and this is an ADULT child, not a wee one.


All true. What I know is that I didn't want her to feel like this was a safe place to vent. I don't care about her or her kid. I just wanted her to know that if she's going to post things like that, she's going to get pushback.

quote:

I can tell you, I have seen parents that were well justified writing their kids off until their kids could get their shit together. Coddling people with certain issues isn't always the right thing to do


I know these situations can be complicated. And sick people can be an enormous drain. I think the gray area is where the parent feels like they need to step back to take care of themselves. That's pretty hard to do and goes against pretty much all of most people's cultural training. So they take a page from the "Tough Love" handbook and convince themselves that they're stepping back for the good of the child. And some people have pretty broad definitions of "coddling."

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 2:29:57 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I think the gray area is where the parent feels like they need to step back to take care of themselves.


Wrong, they need to step back to possibly save the rest of the family, or to save their adult kid. Enabling someone to stay ill is not a good idea.



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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 2:58:53 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I think the gray area is where the parent feels like they need to step back to take care of themselves.


Wrong, they need to step back to possibly save the rest of the family, or to save their adult kid. Enabling someone to stay ill is not a good idea.




I'm not saying that your scenario is never the case. And again, some people's definitions of "enabling" are broader than others. If you're saying that my scenario is never the case, then I'll just agree to disagree.

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 3:29:43 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I'm not saying that your scenario is never the case. And again, some people's definitions of "enabling" are broader than others. If you're saying that my scenario is never the case, then I'll just agree to disagree.


My experience with mentally ill family members is not something I want to talk about here. But let me assure you, if you have given birth to more than one child you should not throw all the rest of them under a bus because one of your children refuses to get help... you cannot sacrifice your entire family because one member of it does not want to be well. It is no easy decision, and it is one I am glad I would never be forced to make because I only have one. I think I would be pretty angry at my adult child if he put me in the position of choosing between his/her illness and my other kids.... and believe me, I know from very personal experience that this can happen. It happened to my mother, and there is no more giving, kind and wonderful person than she is.

You post about things you have no firsthand experience with... do you have kids? Have you ever had a mentally ill sibling? Some sort of firsthand experience that makes you qualified to comment on this? Seriously, before you levy judgments on message boards it might be a good idea to have some basis of comparison with your own life experiences...



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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 4:18:52 PM   
littlewonder


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My remarks about my daughter were not disparaging. They were not to put her down. They were to say that she chose to do nothing about her illness. Nothing more nothing less. She consented to do nothing, to completely ignore her problems.

My ADULT daughter completely agrees with me if you read my further posts. She's fully aware and knows what she does and does not do and she's more than happy and willing to live like that. Both me and her doctors did absolutely everything we could for her. We both eventually told her the same thing "until you decide to help yourself we're wasting our time and our breaths". She may have a condition but a condition doesn't take care of itself. It takes the consent and willingness of the person with the condition.

I never once said anything about being disgusted about those with such illnesses. I said they simply do have choices and do consent to their actions or inactions.

If you read my words in the way you said then I can't change that. It's your choice to read them as you wish.


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 4:23:09 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I'm not saying that your scenario is never the case. And again, some people's definitions of "enabling" are broader than others. If you're saying that my scenario is never the case, then I'll just agree to disagree.


My experience with mentally ill family members is not something I want to talk about here. But let me assure you, if you have given birth to more than one child you should not throw all the rest of them under a bus because one of your children refuses to get help... you cannot sacrifice your entire family because one member of it does not want to be well. It is no easy decision, and it is one I am glad I would never be forced to make because I only have one. I think I would be pretty angry at my adult child if he put me in the position of choosing between his/her illness and my other kids.... and believe me, I know from very personal experience that this can happen. It happened to my mother, and there is no more giving, kind and wonderful person than she is.

You post about things you have no firsthand experience with... do you have kids? Have you ever had a mentally ill sibling? Some sort of firsthand experience that makes you qualified to comment on this? Seriously, before you levy judgments on message boards it might be a good idea to have some basis of comparison with your own life experiences...




Your example of not throwing your other kids under the bus supports my point. Life is hard and we have to make choices. Sometimes it's necessary to step back from a loved one in order to take care of yourself, or other people. All I'm saying is that it's not always about "helping" the sick one by refusing to "enable" them. To claim that it is is ignorant or cowardly.

As for your assumptions about my experience... my very first post on this topic said it's a touchy subject for me, and that to watch a show like Hoarders would be torture to me. Do you honestly think I would have that kind of response if I had no personal experience with this? I mentioned multiple generations of my family dealing with mental illness. You say you don't want to talk about your family experiences, but you expect me to talk about mine? I've got a lifetime of experience with this shit. I'm not going to share all that with a bunch of strangers in the hopes of bolstering my credentials to talk about this. If you want to believe that I have no personal experience and therefore no credibility to discuss, fine. But you have less proof to support your believe than I did to make my comment about LittleWonder.

I like reading your posts in general, and I'm happy you started this thread, but for fuck's sake... you had to watch a tv show to gain insight into this issue. Did it even occur to you that I might actually know a lot more about this from first hand experience than you do and maybe that's why my comments weren't exactly tracking with yours?

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 4:31:02 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
If you read my words in the way you said then I can't change that. It's your choice to read them as you wish.


You're right. I missed the puppies and sunshine in your first post. It didn't come across as harsh at all.

quote:


the gross factor definitely. I've watched them and I've seen nothing at all educational about them except maybe that  I don't want to be like them or involve myself with one or be around one who is like that. I've had to deal with a daughter who is like that and it was not easy to deal with.




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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 4:41:54 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I like reading your posts in general, and I'm happy you started this thread, but for fuck's sake... you had to watch a tv show to gain insight into this issue. Did it even occur to you that I might actually know a lot more about this from first hand experience than you do and maybe that's why my comments weren't exactly tracking with yours?


Actually my mother's significant other of over 20 years and my ex both had this issue... and no I did not understand what went on in their heads because they never shared it with me..

Oh, btw, lots of people become self aware they have an issue themselves by watching shows like this... so if you think that because I did not understand the illness because I had never before encountered it, you are wrong

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 4:43:46 PM   
sexyred1


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This is a very tough topic for those who have relatives or people they love with the condition.

I will not go into my opinions about the various TV shows, other than to say I don't find it exploitative; I find any attention to an illness that tries to discuss the underlying cause is somewhat valuable, even if it only helps ONE person.

I will also say that if someone does not want help for their condition, it is virtually impossible to help them.

And yet, there is room for sympathy and compassion for them and those they live with or who love them.


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 4:53:57 PM   
Aneirin


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FR

Reading here I am beginning to understand something, something in relation to my own hoarding and that is I never used to do it before the situations that I believed caused me the ptsd. My ptsd led to the break up of my marriage, the loss of my job, my home and most of my things. I started again in another part of the country, that after trying to start over in another country, but it seemed I needed to hear the voices of my own kind to feel anywhere near comfortable to start the recovery.

So perhaps four to five years on from that time I feel I now understand  the mechanism that leads to my stress disorder and as a result consciously keep myself away from the things I know will lead to a questionable outcome, socialising anywhere with anyone I am unfamiliar with is a recipe for what may come if I am unfortunate enough to receive the correct stimulus and that stimulus comes with me letting my guard down, relaxing as most can. Sure I can survive such situations without incident, but in such situations where I am on guard, I annoy myself and others with my inability to relax and socialise.

True, I do have a level of Asperger's syndrome which people may say when they know it, social situations aspies can't do, but I have only found I am aspie last year, so I have had thirty odd years of trying to cope and there at an early age aware of my difficulties, I have developed many a coping strategy to at least attempt socialising with others, a requisite for all or at least most of human kind.

So the hoarding, yeah, I guess I hoard and honesty with myself, I do, but am at least cheered that of my hoarding I am hoarding things that have a use to me, for I hoard tools, hand tools for all manner of work and of those tools whatever they may be, the curiousity that struck my interest to obtain the tool, I learn to use it and teach myself the use of the thing. The result is of the myriad of hand tools I have, mostly antique tools, I know their use, and I am very proficient in their use having taught myself their purpose.

But prior to this thread, and my thinking over the past few days whilst this thread has been in progress, I have come to understand that of my collections, I am a collector, I cannot help that, it is just me, but now I am beginning to understand my collections are perhaps linked to my time before the years the ptsd came to me, for I understand I am now doing what I was prevented from doing before and replacing some of what I have lost, the biggy being about £6000's worth of Snap-On tools, which I had accumulated via weekly payments over ten years, the tools of my profession.

I am understanding now that I appear to have gone circular, for I am trying to get myself back to where I was, by repeating much of what lead to the position where it all went wrong, healthy or not, I don't know.


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 5:01:17 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
If you read my words in the way you said then I can't change that. It's your choice to read them as you wish.


You're right. I missed the puppies and sunshine in your first post. It didn't come across as harsh at all.

quote:


the gross factor definitely. I've watched them and I've seen nothing at all educational about them except maybe that  I don't want to be like them or involve myself with one or be around one who is like that. I've had to deal with a daughter who is like that and it was not easy to deal with.






Would YOU want to be around someone who is slowly killing themselves and refusing to get help??

I don't. It kills me right along with them.

I don't want to be around alcoholics or druggies either for the same reason. I can't sit around and watch them kill themselves and know there's not a damn thing I can do for them.

It's not about being harsh. It's about being honest and saving myself. I don't feel like dying just yet thanks.


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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 5:04:36 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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All I want to say is I think the folks on the shows ask for help,  These producers don't knock on every door until they find a hoarder.

When I was homebound 20 years ago with panic attacks, I would have welcomed some free professional help.  Perhaps I would have gotten over it faster than I did seeking out free support groups and such.

I am just glad to be better, but sometimes I wonder if it will ever come back.....I hope I have the coping skills to prevent that, but if it ever happens, I wouldnt mind free help, and I wouldnt care if they showed it to the world.  It was some scary shit.

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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 5:27:14 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

So the hoarding, yeah, I guess I hoard and honesty with myself, I do, but am at least cheered that of my hoarding I am hoarding things that have a use to me,
That is the rational, at least in part, of nearly all hoarders, Aneirin.

I am not an expert on hoarding by any means, but in reading your post a few things jumped out at me. You state you feel the hoarding is secondary to the loss of all you had, and is a form of rebuilding.
quote:

My ptsd led to the break up of my marriage, the loss of my job, my home and most of my things......
but now I am beginning to understand my collections are perhaps linked to my time before the years the ptsd came to me, for I understand I am now doing what I was prevented from doing before and replacing some of what I have lost


Then you say you have Aspergers Syndrome and, as is typical with Aspergers, find social situations extremely difficult
quote:

I do have a level of Asperger's syndrome which people may say when they know it, social situations aspies can't do, but I have only found I am aspie last year, so I have had thirty odd years of trying to cope and there at an early age aware of my difficulties, I have developed many a coping strategy to at least attempt socialising with others, a requisite for all or at least most of human kind.


What i cannot help thinking is since the break-up of your marriage, you are alone. You do not have a spouse to rely on, at least in part, to help you through the social areas of your life that you, with Aspergers, find so difficult.

Is it possible that the hoarding is a form of isolation? You are building a wall of clutter that relieves you of the very uncomfortable situation of feeling obligated to have others come to your home. You have no desire to have others see the clutter, therefore you do not socialize in that respect.

Hoarding as you do, tools only, takes time. Be it going to yard sales, flea markets, EBay, or whatever method you have to obtain the tools, you are devoting quite a bit of time to your pursuit. When you are so busy searching for a tool that you do not yet have, social obligations are unimportant and secondary, and loneliness is not recognized.



Just my thoughts....feel free to tell me i am full of it




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RE: Hoarders and Obsessed - 8/18/2010 5:36:42 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

I can see how others might read my words as suggesting it's her fault her daughter is ill.
I did. Apologies.

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