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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 10:53:04 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Good lord the dates Oct 1983 and Some summer month in 1992 if I recall (ended my "time in" on IRR status so the exact date is not welded into my brain) I could go try to dig it up from the filing cabnet if you insist.

MOS 12C Armor Officer
Armor Officer Basic Course Ft Knox 1986

So go fuck yourself on the My DD214 is better than yours.

What unable to address the Clauswitz references?

And Charlie Wilson proves exactly my point not yours the Politicians screwed it up they didn't provide the support, they screwed up the end game Which Military Commander are you going to try to pin that on???????????




(in reply to pogo4pres)
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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 11:43:07 AM   
pogo4pres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Good lord the dates Oct 1983 and Some summer month in 1992 if I recall (ended my "time in" on IRR status so the exact date is not welded into my brain) I could go try to dig it up from the filing cabnet if you insist.

MOS 12C Armor Officer
Armor Officer Basic Course Ft Knox 1986

So go fuck yourself on the My DD214 is better than yours.

What unable to address the Clauswitz references?

And Charlie Wilson proves exactly my point not yours the Politicians screwed it up they didn't provide the support, they screwed up the end game Which Military Commander are you going to try to pin that on???????????






The point is that we as a nation do not do "diplomacy" archer , we think with our fucking dicks, and ask the military which has not been properly trained to do so, to do diplomatic shit.  That is why we fuck up.

I do not blame the military commanders, they follow orders, but also the entire fucking command structure is pretty much set up on "battle experience"  and you should know that.

Von Clausewitz never said anything that Sun Tzu  or Machiavelli didn't say before him which is why I left that alone. 

Ever think maybe we need to rethink what we should be training our military for??  Or are you locked into the "swinging dick" we're the worlds fucking bad asses type of thinking???


Diplomatically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 11:49:01 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Good lord the dates Oct 1983 and Some summer month in 1992 if I recall (ended my "time in" on IRR status so the exact date is not welded into my brain) I could go try to dig it up from the filing cabnet if you insist.

MOS 12C Armor Officer
Armor Officer Basic Course Ft Knox 1986

So go fuck yourself on the My DD214 is better than yours.

What unable to address the Clauswitz references?

And Charlie Wilson proves exactly my point not yours the Politicians screwed it up they didn't provide the support, they screwed up the end game Which Military Commander are you going to try to pin that on???????????




Hey, after you guys finish with your DD214 pissing contest, maybe you might consider that the germ of Iran's resentment was planted when the CIA and M16 bumped off Prime Miinister Mossadegh and installed Shah Pahlavi back in what 1953?

Seems to me you guys are in agreement. This war is inevitable. Just a matter of gaming it, no?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 11:51:26 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

We tried the "hearts and minds" gig for a bit in Vietnam, but proved inept at best, so we fell back on bomb the shit out of them.  We see how well that worked.


Slightly different scenario in terms of terrain. In desert terrain, no army currently out there, including our own, could stand up to American air power. That just is, what it is. Militarily, a comparison to Vietnam is not apples vs. apples.  

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 11:54:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

We tried the "hearts and minds" gig for a bit in Vietnam, but proved inept at best, so we fell back on bomb the shit out of them.  We see how well that worked.


Slightly different scenario in terms of terrain. In desert terrain, no army currently out there, including our own, could stand up to American air power. That just is, what it is. Militarily, a comparison to Vietnam is not apples vs. apples.  


So, if Israel attacked Iran, Iran would what.... sit on its hands?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 11:55:58 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		There will unfortunately always be a need for a group of people trained to break things and kill people, for those times when you can't get what you NEED through diplomacy.

Your statement

"Just fucking once I would like to see a US commander that understands that "hearts and minds" should be first."

Was the one I took issue with and put the idea that you blame the military commanders for the screw ups into my head. Commanders include only two or three "civilians" and the rest are military . My point is simple the military doesn't get called in unless and until the State Department has already screwed up the hearts and minds attempt.
Had the hearts and mind attempt been made well by the politicians then the military options wouldn't be needed. Or they would be going in like they do in times of natural  disasters.

My point is and remains that politicians not commanders are responsible for the hearts and minds that should I agree be happening first.


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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 11:58:37 AM   
praetorian1974


Posts: 47
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline 		I think, and this is only opinion, that If Israel attacked Iran, the only form of retaliation would be Hezbollah launching scuds into tel-Aviv. And definitely stepped up attacks from Hamas. In the end though, Iran would probably just rattle a whole bunch of sabres.

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:04:32 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: praetorian1974

I think, and this is only opinion, that If Israel attacked Iran, the only form of retaliation would be Hezbollah launching scuds into tel-Aviv. And definitely stepped up attacks from Hamas. In the end though, Iran would probably just rattle a whole bunch of sabres.


Maybe you're right. But seems like a whole lot of foot in mouth for the Mullahs.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:05:56 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline 		Iran's capabilities and influence on its neighbors are greatly overstated. If, as posited in the OP, it starts with an Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear installations, thats pretty much where it ends, except for terroism that is coming anyway.

(in reply to thornhappy)
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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:08:53 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, if Israel attacked Iran, Iran would what.... sit on its hands?


I have no idea. Perhaps the poster above is correct .. they might use terrorism and SCUD missiles to strike back. I'm simply saying the the idea presented in the article, that they would put an army in the field and attack Saudi Arabia, is pure folly. The terrain is not favorable. The supply train needed, just for food an water alone would be extensive, and while you can deny the United States military any number of things, one thing they do shockingly well is blow the crap out of things in open terrain.

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I wish I could buy back ...
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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:13:15 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

There will unfortunately always be a need for a group of people trained to break things and kill people, for those times when you can't get what you NEED through diplomacy.

Your statement

"Just fucking once I would like to see a US commander that understands that "hearts and minds" should be first."

Was the one I took issue with and put the idea that you blame the military commanders for the screw ups into my head. My point is and remains that politicians not commanders are responsible for the hearts and minds that should I agree be happening first.



The political object is the goal, war is the means of reaching it, and the means can never be considered in isolation form their purposes.
Karl Von Clausewitz
 
War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by different means.
Karl Von Clausewitz
 
 
War is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means.
Karl Von Clausewitz





For anyone who has never read " Clausewitz On War" I highly recomend it.




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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:13:35 PM   
pogo4pres


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Joined: 1/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


Hey, after you guys finish with your DD214 pissing contest, maybe you might consider that the germ of Iran's resentment was planted when the CIA and M16 bumped off Prime Miinister Mossadegh and installed Shah Pahlavi back in what 1953?

Seems to me you guys are in agreement. This war is inevitable. Just a matter of gaming it, no?


vincent I was going to address that in my next reply to archer, but you beat me to it.  Like I said previously we think because of WWII we are the big bad ass "swinging fucking dick" of the planet.  We think we know more than cultures that are 10 times as old as ours.  We  tend to forget "american culture" is really bits and pieces of hundreds of other cultures assimilated into our society (does that make us the "Borg"?), overall we are neophytes on the global stage.  We often act like the petulant child of the world, which at about 230 years we are.

My best buddies father-in-law served in the US navy in Lebanon in 1958, he reports we were hated almost as badly, in the arab world then,  as we are today.  The British for all their arrogance and intellectual superiority, at least went in to a place and learned the local customs and rituals they were going to deal with, unlike this nation.



Diplomatically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


_____________________________

"All life is pain highness, anyone that says different is just trying to sell something" The Man in Black (Dread Pirate Roberts)

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:13:38 PM   
praetorian1974


Posts: 47
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline 		Iran is the king of talk. The religious leaders and Revolutionary guard appear to run the country with an iron fist, however, intel on the ground has generally stated that they powers that be in Iran are losing their grip fairly rapidly as western thought permeates their society. How could they run a war and continue to control the general population. They still need civilians to run their economy so that they can fight a war.

So, so true, cruel. About all they can do is export cold war era munitions.

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:14:01 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Vincent,

Gammed out, so long as we fight it on similar terms to the Operation Dessert Shield Iran couldn't stand up to the US Air power. Of course that means that we have the sense to not try to take and hold ground. That's quite a shift in thought but in times of limited forces strength and international support it might do well to shift strategy.

Shut down the supplies cut off the roads bridges and other ways to keep soldiers in the field and the army surrenders in masses (see Iraqi army circa 1991)
Now that works only for those drafted and the non republican guard level units. but that cuts the Army by 2/3 .

Now taking and holding land in Iran would require quite a force and likely would prove too big a task without a HUGE support from the UN which we wouldn't get.
That would put the US trying to control land stretched from Pakistan to the east to Syria to the west, entirly too much area unless we were committed to a complete WWII level task. (Not something I think we have enough popular support to be doing).

But we might be able to foster a revolution attempt during that time. But as pogo mentioned we have to be ready to support the end game of such a revolution or we end up with unintended consequences, such as the Taliban.




(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:17:30 PM   
praetorian1974


Posts: 47
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline 		Archer, I have to say hearts and minds never work. Not unless you are dealing with westerners. We have absolutely nothing in common with these people. Who will they listen to? A soldier who rolls into their village looking like the friggen terminator? Or someone who looks and speaks like them?

Plus, for hearts and minds to work, you really have to have established some form of security first.

(in reply to praetorian1974)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:21:24 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

There will unfortunately always be a need for a group of people trained to break things and kill people, for those times when you can't get what you NEED through diplomacy.

Your statement

"Just fucking once I would like to see a US commander that understands that "hearts and minds" should be first."

Was the one I took issue with and put the idea that you blame the military commanders for the screw ups into my head. Commanders include only two or three "civilians" and the rest are military . My point is simple the military doesn't get called in unless and until the State Department has already screwed up the hearts and minds attempt.
Had the hearts and mind attempt been made well by the politicians then the military options wouldn't be needed. Or they would be going in like they do in times of natural  disasters.

My point is and remains that politicians not commanders are responsible for the hearts and minds that should I agree be happening first.




My bad for the lack of clarity, then, I meant by command the civilian dickheads that tell the military what to do, as well as the Pentagon. Command was not necessarily meant to mean the actual "field commanders" who often do get the "hearts and minds"  picture before anyone else does.

Militarily,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


_____________________________

"All life is pain highness, anyone that says different is just trying to sell something" The Man in Black (Dread Pirate Roberts)

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:25:09 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Trying to take and especially hold Iran, would play against the previously mentioned advantage, and put our vulnerabilities on display. We will not win hearts and minds, and that sort of fighting it not what our military does best.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to pogo4pres)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:28:06 PM   
praetorian1974


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Status: offline 		Archer, you do have a point. Bombing our enemies back into the stone age with airpower send quite a clear message to any other potential idiots.

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:42:55 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well we did the smart bombing thing back in 91 pretty well.
TV coverage of trucks crossing a bridge seconds before the bridge disappears tends to go over really well with the public.
Carpet Bombing is a nightmare politically, but drop every bridge between Tehran and the rest of the country and you send quite a message.

Selective targeting and displays of strength with restraint play well to allies and foes alike.

To keep a bunch of troops on the borders you have to have ways to supply them, cut supplies and the troops eventually fail.
Colonels look at military strategies and tactics
Generals watch Logistics

If I control the air and I drop every bridge and every train line then how you gonna keep the troops fed?

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RE: The Next World War - Israel Attacks Iran - 8/20/2010 12:45:22 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Trying to take and especially hold Iran, would play against the previously mentioned advantage, and put our vulnerabilities on display. We will not win hearts and minds, and that sort of fighting it not what our military does best.



Holy fuck!!! Where has caitlyn been? Notify Thompson that the prodigal daughter has returned!!!

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